Tom Wills

[Kick_It_To_Pickett 3,291]

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/afl-clubs-seek-advice-after-tom-wills-discovery-20210920-p58t8y.html?fbclid=IwAR10lLIcuUc-UU8gT47BgikYiL_3eVLBszvXuvE4sFNKzZhO3FZFZ0A77pk
 

Interesting details emerging about Wills’ part in a massacre of Aboriginals. This seems completely inconsistent with other things I’ve read about Wills, but it’s fairly damning. How do others view this? I don’t feel like the MFC makes much of a deal about our connection to Wills, and these events took place a few years after he established the MFC. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Kick_It_To_Pickett

[Laurie Fowler 6]

Reading the letter in full calls the anonymous source into doubt.

[DeeZone 9,685]

When I read the story posted on here about Tom Wills it mentioned that some of his family were killed by aborigines in the biggest massacre of whites in QLD history when Tom was away getting supplies. I would seriously question the validity of anything that has not been fully checked out as it goes against his record of working so closely with indigenous peoples.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,693]

There is a need to be very careful here. None of us will ever know the true story. Was it self-defence? Was it protection of property and not racially based? Did it even happen as described?

There are always risks with a cancel culture approach, especially when the facts have been lost or, conversely, exaggerated by the effluxion of time.  

[mauriesy 7,261]

I don't know why that stupid right-wing term "cancel culture" gets brought in here. We all need to seek the truth. We should not be beholden to a Tudge view of history.

Where I live, there are several streets in a number of towns named after pioneers who were likely involved in indigenous atrocities in the squatting era. There will be justificable moves to change the names as the truth comes to light.

[darkhorse72 1,906]

As a trained historian I will state relying on one source is not good practice.  Though his account of the event, which  they did print an extract of did no specify his actions only that he was present at the massacre, which is clear multiple sources.   This is an area that trained historians may spend more time investigating to a greater depth to interpret what did occur. Given the interest in understanding the events/massacres of the period and the conflict between different parties I'm sure we'll hear more details in the near future. 

[waynewussell 5,369]

It is only now that I have become aware of Wills' downward spiralling latter years, and that he took his own life when still relatively young. He clearly experienced a lot of tragic and controversial incidents in his lifetime. Many of these were self-inflicted. Letting the truth be known is our way forward!

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

There is a need to be very careful here. None of us will ever know the true story. Was it self-defence? Was it protection of property and not racially based? Did it even happen as described?

There are always risks with a cancel culture approach, especially when the facts have been lost or, conversely, exaggerated by the effluxion of time.  

Cancel culture would be failing to properly investigate due to a fear that the history might be unpalatable.

The best that can be done is to examine the information, assess the sources and make objective inferences based on probability.

Let's do that.

 

 

[daisycutter 29,604]

10 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

I don't know why that stupid right-wing term "cancel culture" gets brought in here. We all need to seek the truth. We should not be beholden to a Tudge view of history.

Where I live, there are several streets in a number of towns named after pioneers who were likely involved in indigenous atrocities in the squatting era. There will be justificable moves to change the names as the truth comes to light.

i can believe the article in the 1895 chicago tribune newspaper is possibly accurate

but i don't see how it can be corroborated.  the source was from someone only identified as 'G' and some 34 years after the event.

is this the truth?.........or will it boil down to what one wants to believe

to me,  at this stage, it just raises a question mark, albeit a serious one

[TRIGON 4,783]

What happened in this particular event? Multiple sources would be welcome, however further evidence that it was an ugly outcome would disappoint but not surprise me.

For context, the period during the Napoleanic wars and post-Napoleonic depression were barbaric times. What white people were doing to white people was unconscionable by modern standards; add racism / ignorance to that and the probability of unreasonably excessive brutality towards non-whites is high.

 

[Cranky Franky 2,031]

2 hours ago, mauriesy said:

I don't know why that stupid right-wing term "cancel culture" gets brought in here. We all need to seek the truth. We should not be beholden to a Tudge view of history.

Where I live, there are several streets in a number of towns named after pioneers who were likely involved in indigenous atrocities in the squatting era. There will be justificable moves to change the names as the truth comes to light.

Cancel culture is hardly a right wing term, its a real thing and happens far too often. You disagree with someone and instead of arguing your position you ban them from appearing and boycott them.

[Flower Magic 776]

The only thing requiring cancellation right now is the MFC's "most years since a premiership" tag.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,693]

10 minutes ago, Cranky Franky said:

Cancel culture is hardly a right wing term, its a real thing and happens far too often. You disagree with someone and instead of arguing your position you ban them from appearing and boycott them.

I think people from the left think that "cancel culture" is a right wing term and people from the right believe it's left wing terminology. I'm actually sorry I used it, not because of the discussion in this thread which I think is worthwhile, but because I think it's a faddish term which will eventually cease common usage. And for that everyone, whether left, right or from the extreme centre, will eventually be grateful.

Edited September 21, 2021 by La Dee-vina Comedia

[Cranky Franky 2,031]

Lets leave this matter for historians.

I'm a bit concerned at the timing.  It's got the potential to shift the focus from the GF.

This week let's concentrate on the best of Melbourne.

 

[John Crow Batty 8,861]

This is consistent with what I was told by a work friend who has a diary from his ‘respectable’ pioneer ancestor which documented regular ‘jolly hunting parties’ to shoot native people who stole sheep in central Victoria. No mercy or quarter was given. A lot of deeply horrible things happened that deserve to be outed and perpetrators shamed in posterity. Genocide was practiced enthusiastically by many and elegantly whitewashed from history.

Edited September 21, 2021 by John Crow Batty

[Laurie Fowler 6]

6 hours ago, daisycutter said:

i can believe the article in the 1895 chicago tribune newspaper is possibly accurate

It's not an "article" as such but a letter from a reader like you or me, posted anonymously and replete with demonstrable falsehoods, such as that Wills arrived from England three years earlier (he and his father were born in NSW) and that his family's heads were impaled on sticks during the massacre (only his father was present). The writer also seems to be under the illusion that the events happened in Victoria. The dramatic supposed recounting of Wills' return to the property is at odds with a man not given to such introspection, least of all to a stranger. And there is documented evidence that Wills recuperated at a nearby station while the first reprisal raid was carried out. A later, more deadly raid was conducted under the auspices of the fearsome Queensland Native Police.

The letter is an interesting discovery after all this time, but in its full context must remain a dubious curiosity.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Laurie Fowler

[daisycutter 29,604]

3 minutes ago, Laurie Fowler said:

It's not an "article" as such but a letter from a reader like you or me, posted anonymously and replete with demonstrable falsehoods, such as that Wills arrived from England three years earlier (he and his father were born in NSW) and that his family's heads were impaled on sticks during the massacre. The dramatic supposed recounting of Wills' return to the property is at odds with a man given to such introspection, least of all to a stranger.

The letter is an interesting discovery after all this time, but in its full context must remain a dubious curiosity.

and as i pointed out written 34 years after the described events. memory can play devilish tricks over time, especially when the details were second hand derived

[Laurie Fowler 6]

11 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

and as i pointed out written 34 years after the described events. memory can play devilish tricks over time, especially when the details were second hand derived

The I Zingari jacket referred to was acquired while Wills was schooling overseas. It created a minor sensation when he wore it onto the MCG some five years prior to the massacre. And Wills himself was long dead at the time of the letter, without right of reply.

There is no accounting for the unknown writer's motives.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Laurie Fowler

[sugar 46]

Hmmmm. Tom Wills is a legendary part of our club and the AFL, that is indisputable, he wrote the rules for crying out loud. It has come to light that he was also involved in the massacre of Indigenous Australians in Queensland. 

This one is a difficult one to think through how to handle, he should be remembered for his contribution to the sport but at the same time can go to hell for his involvement in attempted genocide.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/afl-clubs-seek-advice-after-tom-wills-discovery-20210920-p58t8y.html

Saw the article yesterday, hence the timing, which isn't great given it is Grand Final week.

[daisycutter 29,604]

1 hour ago, sugar said:

Hmmmm. Tom Wills is a legendary part of our club and the AFL, that is indisputable, he wrote the rules for crying out loud. It has come to light that he was also involved in the massacre of Indigenous Australians in Queensland. 

This one is a difficult one to think through how to handle, he should be remembered for his contribution to the sport but at the same time can go to hell for his involvement in attempted genocide.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/afl-clubs-seek-advice-after-tom-wills-discovery-20210920-p58t8y.html

Saw the article yesterday, hence the timing, which isn't great given it is Grand Final week.

already a thread on this https://demonland.com/forums/topic/51239-tom-wills/

[dworship 3,342]

2 hours ago, sugar said:

Hmmmm. Tom Wills is a legendary part of our club and the AFL, that is indisputable, he wrote the rules for crying out loud. It has come to light that he was also involved in the massacre of Indigenous Australians in Queensland. 

This one is a difficult one to think through how to handle, he should be remembered for his contribution to the sport but at the same time can go to hell for his involvement in attempted genocide.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/afl-clubs-seek-advice-after-tom-wills-discovery-20210920-p58t8y.html

Saw the article yesterday, hence the timing, which isn't great given it is Grand Final week.

Joined yesterday at 1:30 pm, and this is what you choose to post first? I call troll and possibly a Dogs supporter at that.

[sugar 46]

1 hour ago, daisycutter said:

already a thread on this https://demonland.com/forums/topic/51239-tom-wills/

Whoops, couldn’t find it when I looked. Feel free to delete. 

[sugar 46]

1 hour ago, dworship said:

Joined yesterday at 1:30 pm, and this is what you choose to post first? I call troll and possibly a Dogs supporter at that.

Nope. Used to be in here under the name Chris, especially during the doping saga. Haven’t posted in ages and the kind remember my password wouldn’t work so signed on other a new email address. Not a troll or dog. The name I picked is the nickname of my fav player as a kid. 

[dworship 3,342]

8 minutes ago, sugar said:

Nope. Used to be in here under the name Chris, especially during the doping saga. Haven’t posted in ages and the kind remember my password wouldn’t work so signed on other a new email address. Not a troll or dog. The name I picked is the nickname of my fav player as a kid. 

Who was the player?

[John Crow Batty 8,861]

17 minutes ago, dworship said:

Who was the player?

That would be Greg Healy. Not the brother that ditched us.

Edited September 22, 2021 by John Crow Batty