TEAMS: Rd 20 vs Gold Coast

[Lord Nev 13,512]

1 minute ago, rpfc said:

The ‘heat map’ is just where they got their disposals. 

We don’t have access to GPS data.

No one said it's GPS data did they?

I believe the 'hotter spots' on the heat map indicate where the player spends time with the ball, indicating they're running in those areas as opposed to receiving and disposing in quick succession.

Might be wrong, but that's what I've always understood of that.

[rpfc 28,906]

5 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

No one said it's GPS data did they?

I believe the 'hotter spots' on the heat map indicate where the player spends time with the ball, indicating they're running in those areas as opposed to receiving and disposing in quick succession.

Might be wrong, but that's what I've always understood of that.

Nah, there’s no brains like that. They wouldn’t even have the above data to plug in. 

Theres a laughable one last week with Scott at the Dogs last week where he has for ‘red hot’ spots for his 4 touches and the ‘effects’ on the highlighted area is purely based on where the other 3 ‘hot touches’ were. As a feature, it’s classic data visualisation technique that looks good but makes you dumber.

[Lord Nev 13,512]

3 minutes ago, rpfc said:

Nah, there’s no brains like that. They wouldn’t even have the above data to plug in. 

Theres a laughable one last week with Scott at the Dogs last week where he has for ‘red hot’ spots for his 4 touches and the ‘effects’ on the highlighted area is purely based on where the other 3 ‘hot touches’ were. As a feature, it’s classic data visualisation technique that looks good but makes you dumber.

Can you explain then why some areas are red and others yellow if there's only one dot for each?

[Smokey 4,389]

29 minutes ago, rpfc said:

Nah, there’s no brains like that. They wouldn’t even have the above data to plug in. 

Theres a laughable one last week with Scott at the Dogs last week where he has for ‘red hot’ spots for his 4 touches and the ‘effects’ on the highlighted area is purely based on where the other 3 ‘hot touches’ were. As a feature, it’s classic data visualisation technique that looks good but makes you dumber.

You do not understand how data visualization works at all do you lol 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Smokey

[rpfc 28,906]

8 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Can you explain then why some areas are red and others yellow if there's only one dot for each?

There would be rule around proximity to the others that would do that. The Spargo one you had above had two ‘hotspots’ of 2 touches nearer to each other, and the singular ones a bit further out from each other.

Below is the ridiculous one from the weekend… Scott was hot everywhere…

[rpfc 28,906]

4 minutes ago, Smokey said:

You do not understand how data visualization works at all do you lol 

Well most of it doesn’t work so…

I am guessing you’re in the data world? Am I lifting the lid on your faux code and ****ty ‘insights?’

God I hate the data apparatchiks…

[Lord Nev 13,512]

2 minutes ago, rpfc said:

There would be rule around proximity to the others that would do that.

 

Gotcha, that makes sense. With that in mind, it would still indicate where a player has been 'positioned' though as you would assume if there's possessions close together often then that's the main part of the ground the player is playing, while the less often and further apart ones are obviously the less common spots.

[Smokey 4,389]

Just now, rpfc said:

Well most of it doesn’t work so…

I am guessing you’re in the data world? Am I lifting the lid on your faux code and ****ty ‘insights?’

God I hate the data apparatchiks…

Yes I work in big data, specifically in cyber security. 

Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean its not fulfilling its intended purpose. 

[At the break of Gawn 4,460]

4 hours ago, Pates said:

My guess sadly is that it will be fly up on the day, which means a stupidly early start. These sorts of situations can be seen as obstacles thrown up that suck or challenges that can galvanise the group. 

It’s bloody well time the players stuck their heads in and got the job done, we’ve had our slump, it sucks but move on and get the [censored]ing win. 

I love Max but his leadership has been found wanting in the last month, him, Jack, and the other leaders at the club need to be the ones to pull us out of this funk. You can’t expect the kids to do it. 

Oh and thank you @Lord Nev, you basically said everything I needed to say re: Jackson/Weid. 

If we’re flying up the day of the game, then you can forget about a win. The last same day flight with an early start was North in Tassie where we almost stumbled. Max said in an interview that he needed a nap before the game even started.

We also lost to Sydney in that Cairns debacle when we did a same day flight game. The boys struggle immensely with it.

[Lord Nev 13,512]

@Smokey & @rpfc

There's A BIT in it, but it does reference heat maps a fair bit. Here's a thesis by Dr Karl Jackson, Head of Data & Analytics for Champion Data.

https://researchbank.swinburne.edu.au/file/248ec147-72d7-448c-a19d-49f01d90b12f/1/Karl Jackson Thesis.pdf

 

[Smokey 4,389]

2 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

@Smokey & @rpfc

There's A BIT in it, but it does reference heat maps a fair bit. Here's a thesis by Dr Karl Jackson, Head of Data & Analytics for Champion Data.

https://researchbank.swinburne.edu.au/file/248ec147-72d7-448c-a19d-49f01d90b12f/1/Karl Jackson Thesis.pdf

 

This looks interesting I’ll give it a read. I’ve never really looked at these heat maps much before so I’m interested in how it works

[Lord Nev 13,512]

1 minute ago, Smokey said:

This looks interesting I’ll give it a read. I’ve never really looked at these heat maps much before so I’m interested in how it works

Yeah if you could read it and then explain it to the rest of us that would be great...

 

[DubDee 26,306]

9 minutes ago, At the break of Gawn said:

If we’re flying up the day of the game, then you can forget about a win. The last same day flight with an early start was North in Tassie where we almost stumbled. Max said in an interview that he needed a nap before the game even started.

We also lost to Sydney in that Cairns debacle when we did a same day flight game. The boys struggle immensely with it.

well we better toughen up then. every team is going through this. waiting around for hours in cricket nets, a game was delayed 15 mins as a team were stuck on the bus in traffic

we need to stop looking for excuses and go out and win.  MFC clearly hasnt shaken the mental fragility that has plagued us for so long

[drdrake 3,203]

2 hours ago, rjay said:

I think they might be playing the longer game here...Max might get fewer on ball/ground minutes to freshen up a bit.

As for the Dogs, they had 2 extras at the clearances...they would have won a hell of a lot more if we didn't have a recognised ruck.

and we had something like 50 more hit outs, just shows that hit outs aren't that important

[bobby1554 1,267]

3 hours ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Looks like the Suns are employing the same strategy as the Dogs did last week by going tallish up forward.

They've brought in Zac Smith as a recognised ruck in order for Burgess to go forward along with King, Corbett and this new fellow Jeffrey who kicked 9 snags last week in the 2's.

Clubs are clearly working out that to beat Melbourne, one of the first things you've gotta do is quell May and Lever and force them to match up on talls, particularly Lever.

Didn't work for Brisbane with Hipwood Daniher and McStay

[rpfc 28,906]

27 minutes ago, Smokey said:

Yes I work in big data, specifically in cyber security. 

Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean its not fulfilling its intended purpose. 

I would argue that most people include these visualisations with no idea of it’s intended purpose or meaning. And it is visualising data.

I organise the purchase of these tools for a big govt dept up here in Canberra so I know a little bit. 

I will say that some of the active visualisations in the cyber sec world are more impressive using Splunk and the like, but in my experience, I deal with a lot vendors who treat users like the shallow idiots that they are… 

Harsh but that’s how I have seen it.

[binman 44,530]

2 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

I've heard this a few time this week.  How could they do that at CB with the 6/6/6 rule.  At least in the middle we started with even numbers?

Yes. And we shaded them in centre clearances 

[Pates 9,673]

11 minutes ago, DubDee said:

well we better toughen up then. every team is going through this. waiting around for hours in cricket nets, a game was delayed 15 mins as a team were stuck on the bus in traffic

we need to stop looking for excuses and go out and win.  MFC clearly hasnt shaken the mental fragility that has plagued us for so long

Exactly my thoughts, everyone completely wrote off the Pies and their trip to Adelaide earlier this year. As I said in my earlier post, the club/players can look at this with “woe is us, we’re up against it” or they can say to each other “no excuses, leave it all out there and the get the win”. 

Fact is if we’re wanting to do more than make up the numbers in the finals than our players need to show that they aren’t the Melbourne of old and get the 4 points this week. I genuinely had thought the club, players, and even fans had shaken the Melbourne of old mentality. Sadly doesn’t look to be the case. 

[drdrake 3,203]

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

For reference...

What a terrible set up, I bet Max just dropped the ball either straight down or backwards, the better option considering his hit out dominance would have been wide to Langdon or Hunt not sure which one it is boundary side with no player with in 10m of him.

That picture really sums up our mids, they all want the ball and get in each others way.  Look at the dogs a real spread almost like a rugby style line. 

[rpfc 28,906]

36 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

@Smokey & @rpfc

There's A BIT in it, but it does reference heat maps a fair bit. Here's a thesis by Dr Karl Jackson, Head of Data & Analytics for Champion Data.

https://researchbank.swinburne.edu.au/file/248ec147-72d7-448c-a19d-49f01d90b12f/1/Karl Jackson Thesis.pdf

 

Heat maps can be helpful IF you have the right parameters and of course the data.

That paper is 5 years old so I wonder what of that they are doing regularly still. It alludes to clubs looking at leading patterns and understanding how to play two similar players in the same forwardline…

So if you are focussing in say Ben Brown and how he leads in chains we score in - the parameters would need to allow you to weed out ‘defensive’ movement, slow ball movement for an ‘out’ kick on the boundary (or not depending on what you are trying to ascertain), and maybe times he isn’t ‘in the play’ and entirely ignored. 

Then you are left with a heat map of where he is moving (and how quickly) in successful scoring chains.

From that paper it said that CD still didn’t have the GPS data from the clubs but that may have changed in 5 years.

[rjay 25,306]

22 minutes ago, drdrake said:

and we had something like 50 more hit outs, just shows that hit outs aren't that important

It's just not that simple...

I would think if you are down by 2 players at the stoppage then it's more imperative to get the hit outs. With the out number around the contest if we go close to breaking even then we are doing well.

Hit outs are a part of this, you can't look at one aspect of the game without viewing the consequences on the plan as a whole.

Look a bit deeper 'drdrake'... 

[Smokey 4,389]

21 minutes ago, rpfc said:

I would argue that most people include these visualisations with no idea of it’s intended purpose or meaning. And it is visualising data.

I organise the purchase of these tools for a big govt dept up here in Canberra so I know a little bit. 

I will say that some of the active visualisations in the cyber sec world are more impressive using Splunk and the like, but in my experience, I deal with a lot vendors who treat users like the shallow idiots that they are… 

Harsh but that’s how I have seen it.

Small world it seems. I'm here in Canberra too and I specialize in engineering SIEM's (not Splunk though)

[La Dee-vina Comedia 17,016]

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

For reference...

Channel 7's commentary would likely have been:

• if we had cleared the ball, "Look how much pressure the Dees brought to the defensive side of the contest"
• if the Bulldogs had scored, "Look how much room the Dees gave the Bulldog players"

[demon3165 2,832]

23 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Channel 7's commentary would likely have been:

• if we had cleared the ball, "Look how much pressure the Dees brought to the defensive side of the contest"
• if the Bulldogs had scored, "Look how much room the Dees gave the Bulldog players"

And the coaches thoughts should have been when not going well MAN UP first to control damage then when in control play your game but then again thats old school.

[drdrake 3,203]

1 hour ago, rjay said:

It's just not that simple...

I would think if you are down by 2 players at the stoppage then it's more imperative to get the hit outs. With the out number around the contest if we go close to breaking even then we are doing well.

Hit outs are a part of this, you can't look at one aspect of the game without viewing the consequences on the plan as a whole.

Look a bit deeper 'drdrake'... 

It is pretty simple especially in a game where you have complete dominance in the Ruck.  We play the same as the bulldogs pushing additional numbers to the contest.  There are a number of examples where Max was smashing the ball forward or even taking clean possession of the ball, this is premediated action that it seemed Max was on his own page and no one else knew what he was doing.

I am extremely critical of our ruck work as there seems to be little to no communication, Max is very easy to read his go to tap is dropping it behind at both centre and general play stoppages, boundary throw ins it is a drop to defensive side.  You watch opposition midfields create a circle around us, once the ball gets 1-2m outside the contest if we don't have clean possession we get done.  We play an in close contested brand if the ball gets to the outside we are stuffed.

You would have seen against the dogs we continue to push forwards to the contest to try and out number the dogs, that is why we saw Pickett, Spargo so high up the ground, ANB always plays this role.  It is also why it seems we never have small forwards front and square inside our 50m arc, they have to work so hard to get back.

That's about as deep as I get