If you are still one of the unvaxxed, keep in mind there are related downstream effects which might impact on your or your loved ones, like this story in the Sydney Morning Herald today. The longer Covid hangs around the greater the risk that you won't have a nurse to assist you in your time of need whether it's Covid-related or not. Imagine one of your loved ones turning up to hospital with an appendix that needs to be removed but the surgery is delayed because there are not enough nurses around.

1 hour ago, binman said:

Indeed.

An interesting element of the most recent 'protests' is that the media have, in the main, reported the protests are about the bill currently before Parliament. 

But are they?

Sure, some people are protesting about that issue, which is totally fair enough. The right to to peaceful protest is a tenet of democracy. 

But you only need to read some of the placards to understand that there any number of other issues people are animated about. At the risk of generalising, i would suggest that many of the 'protesters' have not even read the proposed bill or have little sense of what is in it. 

So people protesting the bill are marching side by side with people with a raft of other agendas, covering concerns about mandates, through to bizarre conspiracy theories and threats of violence. And in doing so are tacitly supporting a range of unhinged, dangerous bad actors. 

These bad actors are the only ones that will remain soon - perhaps that has happened already. Attention seekers that are getting attention. And the attention gives them oxygen.

And it is incredible to think, but it also gives them an international audience of similarly unhinged bad actors (or even more dangerously, not yet unhinged, but ripe for conversion), contributing content and angst to an increasingly dangerous echo chamber.

As you suggest LDVC, these bad actors are also ripe for being manipulated by other, even more dangerous bad actors. 

The tragic irony is that about the only unifying idea these bad actors are rallying behind is a perversion of the concept of freedom. 

But no matter where we stand on the issue of mandates, vaccination or government overreach, we should all be very concerned about the very real threat to our democracy  AND our freedoms these bad actors and the echo chamber they live in represent. 

And i have no doubt there is an orgasnising force behind that threat. One only needs to see the insidious infiltration of Qanon 'ideas' in Australia to understand that.

As anyone who has been to Parliament house knows, if a mob decided to storm it, they would have no problem doing so. Two years ago it was unthinkable that such an event could occur.

With people towing gallows and parking in front of parliament house (and being cheered on members of the tiny mob and bad actors around the world via live streaming and encrypted message boards), reporters being chased, mobs marauding though the streets and closing roads (not to mention desecrating the Shrine of Remembrance) and politicians being threatened with violence publicly (and of course online) is it unthinkable now?

And what if it were to happen.? Or god forbid a politician came to harm. What would our society look like then? What freedoms would we all lose? 

Is that what we want? 

The answer i obviously no - or at the least it is from 99% of us.

So the second question is do we really want to be manipulated by the 1% - and more to the point by the bad actors manipulating that 1%. Because that is exactly what is happening. 

Once example of how we are being manipulated is the coverage of these protests by the media and across social media. Sound bites, noise and fury makes for for great click bait and increased revenue.

But there are nearly 7 million people who live in Victoria and even the most generous estimate have the 'protest' numbers at no more than 10, 000 people early this week (and maybe 1000 yesterday?). That's nothing. If anything, given how motivated the 'protesters' are, it is evidence of how little support there is for their issues.  

Compare these 'protests' to other ones that have got more widespread support. How many people came to the BLM march last year? Or the recent marches about the environment?  Or say the Reconciliation marches back in 2000, when a quarter of a million people marched across the Sydney harbor bridge and nearly as many rallied in Melbourne. 

These are issues that there is widespread support for, hence the turn out. 

Crikey, binman.  Where do you get things like 'bad actors', 'unhinged, dangerous bad actors', 'organising forces' type stuff from?  And the 'perversion of the concept of freedom'; 'very real threats to our democracy and freedoms'?

Fairly emotive and forgive me for saying hyperbolic stuff.

There are a lot of angry people in Victoria for a raft of mainly covid related reasons but as you say they have a right to march and to protest.  There is an element of 'rent a crowd' in most protests, as there was with the construction industry a few months ago.  Just to clarify, the attack on the Shrine of Remembrance was during the construction industry march not the marches this week.  I don't condone any rough stuff or violent intentions in any protest but we need to be careful to not over react to the 30 sec news bites and newspaper headlines or to imply there are evil forces behind every protest.   

But to be calling people names for exercising that right and raising unfounded fears is a long bow.  By the way 10,000 in a protest is a decent crowd by Melb standards.  The Melbourne BLM march was about the same.

I think it is really sad that you have drawn parallels with the BLM march as that is such an important cause.  But it was irresponsible, as at the time we were lurching from one covid outbreak to another and iirc we were in lockdown, and went against the express requests of the government and police.

Let people march and perhaps tone down the rhetoric.

Edited November 17, 20213 yr by Lucifers Hero

35 minutes ago, Lucifers Hero said:

Crikey, binman.  Where do you get things like 'bad actors', 'unhinged, dangerous bad actors', 'organising forces' type stuff from?  And the 'perversion of the concept of freedom'; 'very real threats to our democracy and freedoms'?

Fairly emotive and forgive me for saying hyperbolic stuff.

There are a lot of angry people in Victoria for a raft of mainly covid related reasons but as you say they have a right to march and to protest.  There is an element of 'rent a crowd' in most protests, as there was with the construction industry a few months ago.  Just to clarify, the attack on the Shrine of Remembrance was during the construction industry march not the marches this week.  I don't condone any rough stuff or violent intentions in any protest but we need to be careful to not over react to the 30 sec news bites and newspaper headlines or to imply there are evil forces behind every protest.   

But to be calling people names for exercising that right and raising unfounded fears is a long bow.  By the way 10,000 in a protest is a decent crowd by Melb standards.  The Melbourne BLM march was about the same.

I think it is really sad that you have drawn parallels with the BLM march as that is such an important cause.  But it was irresponsible, as at the time we were lurching from one covid outbreak to another and iirc we were in lockdown, and went against the express requests of the government and police.

Let people march and perhaps tone down the rhetoric.

Well said.

1 hour ago, Lucifers Hero said:

Crikey, binman.  Where do you get things like 'bad actors', 'unhinged, dangerous bad actors', 'organising forces' type stuff from?  And the 'perversion of the concept of freedom'; 'very real threats to our democracy and freedoms'?

Fairly emotive and forgive me for saying hyperbolic stuff.

There are a lot of angry people in Victoria for a raft of mainly covid related reasons but as you say they have a right to march and to protest.  There is an element of 'rent a crowd' in most protests, as there was with the construction industry a few months ago.  Just to clarify, the attack on the Shrine of Remembrance was during the construction industry march not the marches this week.  I don't condone any rough stuff or violent intentions in any protest but we need to be careful to not over react to the 30 sec news bites and newspaper headlines or to imply there are evil forces behind every protest.   

But to be calling people names for exercising that right and raising unfounded fears is a long bow.  By the way 10,000 in a protest is a decent crowd by Melb standards.  The Melbourne BLM march was about the same.

I think it is really sad that you have drawn parallels with the BLM march as that is such an important cause.  But it was irresponsible, as at the time we were lurching from one covid outbreak to another and iirc we were in lockdown, and went against the express requests of the government and police.

Let people march and perhaps tone down the rhetoric.

I hate to disagree with you Luci, but I don't think Binman's post is hyperbolic at all. It's certainly conjectural but given events in Washington on 6 January and the politically motivated murders of two British MPs in the last few years, what was once unthinkable now has to be taken very seriously.

Having seen the new pandemic bill's clauses, the transfer of powers from the chief health officer to the premier, I think there is a cause to protest. I myself am a bit concerned.

That said, what could be an entirely valid expression of skepticism against partisan government overreach has now been hijacked by the solipsist, vigilante berserk tendency transported from the gnarly thicket of the US John Birch Society Lunar Right.

Genuine questions that could and should be asked are now being replaced by verbal effluvia from January 6th style revanchists, flat Earthers and conspiracy nuts.

This was a great chance for Matthew Guy to disown them while putting genuine scrutiny on the government, but alas he seems to be talking out both sides of his mouth.

There's been full sized gallows towed to Parliament House where people there attached the noose to a Daniel Andrews effigy.

Numerous MPs have had their lives threatened and that of their partners and families.

Some 'protestors' have taken to sharing the contact details and addresses of MPs supporting the bill and have shown up at their homes.

One speaker spoke about wanting Dan Andrews 'dancing on the end of a rope'.

Another spoke of the 'satanic peadophile cult'.

Multiple Liberal Party MPs have publicly shared images of Dan Andrews as Hitler.

One Liberal MP crashed his car while nearly 3 times over the legal limit - after having a few drinks with a QC who coincidentally had drafted an open letter slamming the new pandemic bill.

Media crews have to be protected from attack by police.

This all in the last few days or so.

But binman's post is hyperbole?

 

58 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

I hate to disagree with you Luci, but I don't think Binman's post is hyperbolic at all. It's certainly conjectural but given events in Washington on 6 January and the politically motivated murders of two British MPs in the last few years, what was once unthinkable now has to be taken very seriously.

Happy for anyone to disagree especially one of my favourite posters like yourself.  It was the name calling and a position on threats to freedom that I referred to as 'emotive and hyperbolic' not the whole post.

Ok, conjectural if you prefer.  But conjecture by definition lacks evidence.  Conjecture can quickly become the mother of 'fake news' or misinformation and before we know there is a great hue and cry and the main purpose of any protest is lost.

And some very strong descriptions and accusations were made of perfect strangers in a protest. 

It worries me that people are quick to draw parallels with what happens overseas with what is happening here.  A small group of rent-a-crowd attract attention, then everyone is tainted with the same brush.  Should we ban protests because there has always been and always will be a rent-a-crowd component?

I'll leave it at that as If I add any more we run the risk of getting into politics and then all our posts will be deleted.

Edited November 17, 20213 yr by Lucifers Hero

8 minutes ago, Lucifers Hero said:

It worries me that people are quick to draw parallels with what happens overseas with what is happening here.

 

7 minutes ago, Lucifers Hero said:

Happy for anyone to disagree especially one of my favourite posters like yourself.

Ok, conjectural if you prefer.  But conjecture by definition lacks evidence.  Conjecture can quickly become the mother of 'fake news' or misinformation and before we know there is a great hue and cry and the main purpose of a protest is lost.

And some very strong descriptions and accusations were made of perfect strangers in a protest. 

It worries me that people are quick to draw parallels with what happens overseas with what is happening here.  Then everyone is tainted with the same brush.  Should we ban protests because there is always a rent-a-crowd component?

I'll leave it at that as If I add any more we run the risk of getting into politics and then all our posts will be deleted.

Yes, we have strayed a bit. The important point from a football perspective is that the players, officials and employees of venues have a safe workspace and that spectators can attend games in a way that keeps them as safe as possible. Let's be clear, though. There isn't really a vaccine mandate. A person can choose not to be vaccinated. What is being mandated are limitations on what unvaccinated people can do. Not being able to pursue a professional sporting career is one as is attending venues such as the MCG. It's really not that much different from mandates that allow employers or venues to prevent people who are intoxicated from participating.  

6 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Yes, we have strayed a bit. The important point from a football perspective is that the players, officials and employees of venues have a safe workspace and that spectators can attend games in a way that keeps them as safe as possible. Let's be clear, though. There isn't really a vaccine mandate. A person can choose not to be vaccinated. What is being mandated are limitations on what unvaccinated people can do. Not being able to pursue a professional sporting career is one as is attending venues such as the MCG. It's really not that much different from mandates that allow employers or venues to prevent people who are intoxicated from participating.  

Spot on LDC. We live in times not seen since WW11. 

16 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Yes, we have strayed a bit. The important point from a football perspective is that the players, officials and employees of venues have a safe workspace and that spectators can attend games in a way that keeps them as safe as possible. Let's be clear, though. There isn't really a vaccine mandate. A person can choose not to be vaccinated. What is being mandated are limitations on what unvaccinated people can do. Not being able to pursue a professional sporting career is one as is attending venues such as the MCG. It's really not that much different from mandates that allow employers or venues to prevent people who are intoxicated from participating.  

Agreed.

Like all aspects of society people can choose to follow the rules or accept the consequences; in this case curtailed opportunities to partake in a large part of our community and its activities.

Edited November 17, 20213 yr by Lucifers Hero

31 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

 

They are horrific images and totally unacceptable.   Why were the props allowed into the Melbourne protest?

The police should confiscate and destroy the props before they even get into the protest and arrest the perpetrators.   There is no place for that stuff in our city or our society.  Surely there is a law about provoking civil unrest or similar.  Throw the book at them.

 

48 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

There's been full sized gallows towed to Parliament House where people there attached the noose to a Daniel Andrews effigy.

Numerous MPs have had their lives threatened and that of their partners and families.

The really troubling aspect of the anti-vaxx movement (which has been around long before Covid) is the recent cultural appropriation of certain right-wing extremist language and behaviours recently encouraged and abetted by the Trump administration.  Namely the endorsement of violence to 'defend' their viewpoints.  Previously anti-vaxxers were thought of as alternative types more likely to buy organic produce in hemp woven bags than rabble rousing rednecks dressed in flouro.   

Like ABC news breakfast this morning mused,  I too wonder what the reaction would have been if it had been an Islamic group driving around town with makeshift gallows and effigies?    These people aren't just vile, they are dangerous and their actions aren't political, they're criminal.  It is an overt threat  of violence to elected representatives that our society should not only condemn, but prosecute. 

extremism and violence is not to be tolerated.......whether it is nominally "left" or "right" wing........and there are plenty of examples of both.

neither should the actions of extremist minorities detract from the majority of lawful and peaceful demonstrators whether you agree or disagree with their protest. they should be kept separate.

32 minutes ago, Lucifers Hero said:

They are horrific images and totally unacceptable.   Why were the props allowed into the Melbourne protest?

The police should confiscate and destroy the props before they even get into the protest and arrest the perpetrators.   There is no place for that stuff in our city or our society.  Surely there is a law about provoking civil unrest or similar.  Throw the book at them.

 

100% agree, but we seem to have entered an age where 'free speech' is a cover all license for any kind of behaviour without consequence.

4 hours ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

If you are still one of the unvaxxed, keep in mind there are related downstream effects which might impact on your or your loved ones, like this story in the Sydney Morning Herald today. The longer Covid hangs around the greater the risk that you won't have a nurse to assist you in your time of need whether it's Covid-related or not. Imagine one of your loved ones turning up to hospital with an appendix that needs to be removed but the surgery is delayed because there are not enough nurses around.

100% - i have seen so many videos of families having to say goodbye to their loves ones via VC, people who have recovered from COVID but cannot get out of bed because of reduced lung function.. i think the next iteration of this will be those that died needlessly - not from covid itself - but due to insufficient medical care as a result of a capacity constrained medical sector. 

 

1 hour ago, Lucifers Hero said:

Happy for anyone to disagree especially one of my favourite posters like yourself.  It was the name calling and a position on threats to freedom that I referred to as 'emotive and hyperbolic' not the whole post.

Ok, conjectural if you prefer.  But conjecture by definition lacks evidence.  Conjecture can quickly become the mother of 'fake news' or misinformation and before we know there is a great hue and cry and the main purpose of any protest is lost.

And some very strong descriptions and accusations were made of perfect strangers in a protest. 

It worries me that people are quick to draw parallels with what happens overseas with what is happening here.  A small group of rent-a-crowd attract attention, then everyone is tainted with the same brush.  Should we ban protests because there has always been and always will be a rent-a-crowd component?

I'll leave it at that as If I add any more we run the risk of getting into politics and then all our posts will be deleted.

I respect your opinion LH, and will take it on board.

Hyperbole? Too emotive? Perhaps, but I guess they are subjective concepts.

I have a genuine concern for what is happening. And i admit to being emotional about. Scared mainly. We have crossed a threshold with the threats politicians (from a range of parties) have received in the last few months . This was not something that happened two years ago. 

But i will disagree with a couple of your points.

I did not name call. In fact i consciously avoided name calling. Unhinged is perhaps the strongest word. But it is hard to argue that some in the crowd are unhinged. Not all, some. 

And i also disagree that i leveled any accusations of perfect strangers in a protest.

I'm not painting those who are protesting the mandate laws with the same brush as those i refer to as bad actors. I merely pointed out such people are choosing to be tainted with the brush of people who bring galllows to a 'protest" and believe our politicians are part of a satanic cult of pedophiles. 

As you say the rent a crowd aspect is in full force. Yet that same group seem to be given a platform and with it an outsize influence. Which i of course they love and the amplification of their views distorts how much support there is for them (which is radicalization 101)

I didn't mean to imply those protesting atm desecrated the shrine. Other 'protester's' did that. But i'll guarantee there is a cross over. The bad actors i'm referring to. 

I agree that many people are angry. My concern is that a key plank for radicalization to work is anger. Another is the normalization of violence. Both exist in this circumstance and current point in time.

Is radicalization hyperbole? I don't think so. Intelligence agencies in both America and Australia have identified home grown terrorism as the greatest threat to our security. We are seeing the seeds of that on our streets and online. 

The odds of an event like Parliament house being stormed or a politician being killed here have never been higher. Still unlikely to happen of course, but it was unthinkable not long ago.  

After 9/11, Australia, like many other countries, increased surveillance and imposed any number of restrictions on our 'freedoms'.  These restrictions were justified on the grounds that they were necessary tools in the war on terror. Most such restrictions remain in place.  

If there is home grown terrorist event here, as night follows day, the government will surely move to impose similar actions that will impact on the freedoms we currently enjoy. 

 

Edited November 17, 20213 yr by binman

4 minutes ago, binman said:

Unhinged is perhaps the stypongets word. But it is hard to argue that some in the corwd are unhinged. Not all, some.

Unhinged? Noooooooo, surely not....

13 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Unhinged? Noooooooo, surely not....

It's actually a very good photo contrasting the self-styled wizard's emerald attire with the austere bluestone of Victoria's Parliament House. The most troubling aspect is the yellow and red sign in the bottom left hand corner. I suspect there's a fourth word that's meant to follow "Dan" such as "ban", "law" or "mandate", but those three words in isolation are most concerning. 

9 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

It's actually a very good photo contrasting the self-styled wizard's emerald attire with the austere bluestone of Victoria's Parliament House. The most troubling aspect is the yellow and red sign in the bottom left hand corner. I suspect there's a fourth word that's meant to follow "Dan" such as "ban", "law" or "mandate", but those three words in isolation are most concerning. 

The posters are both folded and I think the back of the right hand one says 'Bill', so it would be 'Kill The Bill, Dan'.

14 minutes ago, Lucifers Hero said:

The posters are both folded and I think the back of the right hand one says 'Bill', so it would be 'Kill The Bill, Dan'.

Correct, and that poster would have known that. So why the  "but those three words in isolation are most concerning" drivel.

The utter stupidity and craziness of the people involved does not need to be exaggerated to make a point as their actions spoke for them clearly enough. And how dim would you need to be to give your opponents such wonderful ammo against your entire side of the argument. There are some real nutters at both extremes atm.

Wow I've never been on a thread where I hit the "next page" button and end up further back from where I was

This is what scares me, and to paraphrase Shane Crawford, this is what I was talking about -

Far-right protester charged by counter-terror police amid talk of killing Premier

Counter-terrorism officials have charged a Victorian man who encouraged anti-lockdown protesters to take firearms to State Parliament and execute Premier Daniel Andrews.

15 hours ago, faultydet said:

Correct, and that poster would have known that. So why the  "but those three words in isolation are most concerning" drivel.

The utter stupidity and craziness of the people involved does not need to be exaggerated to make a point as their actions spoke for them clearly enough. And how dim would you need to be to give your opponents such wonderful ammo against your entire side of the argument. There are some real nutters at both extremes atm.

Of course it's obvious that there's something missing, but those who are susceptible to extremism and conspiracy theories are clearly very receptive to misinformation, even if it's just simple language taken out of context. As you say, these people show utter stupidity and craziness. Having said that, I'm actually more concerned about the nutter not at that rally who sees the photo and decides to act upon it.

5 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Of course it's obvious that there's something missing, but those who are susceptible to extremism and conspiracy theories are clearly very receptive to misinformation, even if it's just simple language taken out of context. As you say, these people show utter stupidity and craziness. Having said that, I'm actually more concerned about the nutter not at that rally who sees the photo and decides to act upon it.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/melbourne-s-conspiracy-movement-is-traumatised-incoherent-and-potentially-dangerous-20211117-p599qk.html