What is the solution to this problem?

[Kent 2,906]

11 hours ago, tiers said:

More running power. Except for Oliver's run and Tracca's strength we get strangled whenever Viney, Melksham or AVB go in the middle. Brayshaw when played in the middle adds run but he is left on the outside too often. Note also that we get throttled at ball ups and boundary throw ins unless Maxie gets a clean hit to advantage and the oppos don't rove to him - not often. For his control of the ruck contests we get little return. - it seems that there is no plan or cohesion between Maxie and the little fellas.

It's demoralising how often we get beaten at crowded contests. Too many dees attack the ball and allow the oppos to own the outside perimeter that gives them a clear passage away from the pack. Even when winning we seem to chase all day.

It's own occasional good fortune that we have so many players who can convert something from nothing eg. ANB dodging the pack and running free to goal. Hunt whenever he gets free to run.

Lucky we have another six months to correct our deficiencies, if we can. Like our forward entries this has been an obvious failing for years but apparently there is no solution. Better coaching and planning would not hurt.

lost count of the times Viney runs into his own players happens all the time

He is a liability along with his poor disposal

Much better when he doesn't play. ie move him on for a good outside receiver

Edited September 22, 2020 by Kent

[NeveroddoreveN 1,034]

i would love to see a stat on where Max Gawn hits the ball from Centre.  My bet is that over 80% are a cute little tap over his left shoulder.  The problem starts there imo, super predictable.  It also sets up no space for any of our mids to really do anything constructive.  Clarry gets ball but can't go forward as Gawn is blocking path there already, so handball backward to Viney 2 feet away, who charges and coughs up the ball.  It seems like all our players set up like Under 12's compared to other teams.  We don't seem to create any space for each other at stoppages, by giving these crazy little hot handballs that generally go backwards until someone finally takes responsibility to kick it.  How about running forward and creating guys???  The hot potato handballs we seem to do a lot of are fraught with danger and it really feels like beyond Clarry/Petracca there is no one to break lines.  If we continue the dinky handballs i hope our mids and ruck learn to shepherd for each other,(graduate to U14's footy).

Viney seems to be cause of many issues in and around stoppages.  He wants to get his hands on the ball first, and see him itching to get in and get the ball.  He loses track of his opponent nearly every time. He competes with same ball as Oliver/Petracca way too often.  If he gets it he just charges and gets caught holding the ball way too often, or another stoppage.  When he plays a defensive role he does not seem to be able to decide when to stay in/out.  He very rarely holds his ground on the outside of a stoppage.  Like a bee to the honeypot he gets dragged in nearly every time, which creates less space, and we are left with nobody to defend opposition goalside. 

We seem to lack creativity in this area of the game called stoppages.  There is not much strategy that i can see, it is everyone see ball, get ball.  There is so little craft which is an indictment  on these great players, and even moreso, our array of coaches.  

Feel like our gameplan is to actually lose all key areas of the game but have an amazing backline and we can start attacking it from there.  Stoppages used to be our strength, if we had more than Plan A at them they could become a strength again.   We are just too predictable to play against.  Comes down to craft/tactics/game plan and working hard without the ball to make it easier on mates.  We play like a selfish team of individuals mainly.  Apologies Petracca as i know he is busting his gut to do the right thing and create.  

Much more i could say on just this area of our game, this is enough for moment though, i need to wake up, caffeine calls!

[Kent 2,906]

41 minutes ago, NeveroddoreveN said:

i would love to see a stat on where Max Gawn hits the ball from Centre.  My bet is that over 80% are a cute little tap over his left shoulder.  The problem starts there imo, super predictable.  It also sets up no space for any of our mids to really do anything constructive.  Clarry gets ball but can't go forward as Gawn is blocking path there already, so handball backward to Viney 2 feet away, who charges and coughs up the ball.  It seems like all our players set up like Under 12's compared to other teams.  We don't seem to create any space for each other at stoppages, by giving these crazy little hot handballs that generally go backwards until someone finally takes responsibility to kick it.  How about running forward and creating guys???  The hot potato handballs we seem to do a lot of are fraught with danger and it really feels like beyond Clarry/Petracca there is no one to break lines.  If we continue the dinky handballs i hope our mids and ruck learn to shepherd for each other,(graduate to U14's footy).

Viney seems to be cause of many issues in and around stoppages.  He wants to get his hands on the ball first, and see him itching to get in and get the ball.  He loses track of his opponent nearly every time. He competes with same ball as Oliver/Petracca way too often.  If he gets it he just charges and gets caught holding the ball way too often, or another stoppage.  When he plays a defensive role he does not seem to be able to decide when to stay in/out.  He very rarely holds his ground on the outside of a stoppage.  Like a bee to the honeypot he gets dragged in nearly every time, which creates less space, and we are left with nobody to defend opposition goalside. 

We seem to lack creativity in this area of the game called stoppages.  There is not much strategy that i can see, it is everyone see ball, get ball.  There is so little craft which is an indictment  on these great players, and even moreso, our array of coaches.  

Feel like our gameplan is to actually lose all key areas of the game but have an amazing backline and we can start attacking it from there.  Stoppages used to be our strength, if we had more than Plan A at them they could become a strength again.   We are just too predictable to play against.  Comes down to craft/tactics/game plan and working hard without the ball to make it easier on mates.  We play like a selfish team of individuals mainly.  Apologies Petracca as i know he is busting his gut to do the right thing and create.  

Much more i could say on just this area of our game, this is enough for moment though, i need to wake up, caffeine calls!

Never - Very good description of this appalling weakness that hasn't been addressed over a long long time

Its obvious to us sitting in the cheap seats why cant the coaches fix it.

As I have said elsewhere there are a number of players who are uncoachable according to our former midfield coach

Maybe its true??

 

[NeveroddoreveN 1,034]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

Never - Very good description of this appalling weakness that hasn't been addressed over a long long time

Its obvious to us sitting in the cheap seats why cant the coaches fix it.

As I have said elsewhere there are a number of players who are uncoachable according to our former midfield coach

Maybe its true??

 

i find it hard to fathom that they would be uncoachable, we just don't seem to try many different setups.  Opposition teams just sweat on on us and converge.  When we win the ball they are ready to tackle and just continue to push us backwards, hence the dinky little handballs backwards continue under severe pressure.  Why don't we ever try not having a ruckman?  Try an extra onballer instead and sweat on the opposition when they win the ball?  It would be nice to see something different occasionally.  How about let Clayton get the ball and try and create options out wide both left and right?  He has superb hands and is great handball but it always seems that nobody is creating an option for him to get it to out in space. Brayshaw seems to add little bit more balance by staying further to the outside at most stoppages, but is also a very lazy footballer imo and does not work nearly hard enough going either forward or back.  Gawn never seems to block for our onballers either, i see this being a major issue why we don't get much easy ball out of mid. 

We badly need a midfield coach with some credentials!  I was amazed watching how West Coast came on under Mitchell in just one season.  They now innately just work for each other at stoppages.  They are not about how many Supercoach points they get.  It is about blocking/shepherds/taps to advantage/creating space and they are never predictable.  Even when they are it is hard to stop, they work as a team.  Until our mids get a lot less selfish not much will change.  We have AFL standard mids and ruck and this should be easy enough to fix and gradually build layers.  Until they work smarter /harder/less predictable they will dish up similar results. Win the hitouts but lose clearances....Lot's needs to change!

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,128]

This is due to two things in my view.

1. We don’t defend the stoppage when we lose it.

2. When we get first hands on it we don’t execute the next disposal well.

I think we tried to solve both with Melksham in the middle late in the year. We could have solved it better with Harmes as the third banana all year.

[In Harmes Way 7,741]

Look no further than to the dogs game where Gawn vs Dunkley in the ruck still had us losing clearances. 

[DeeZone 9,738]

After reading through all comments and watching us play all year, it's obvious that some Demonlander's have great analytical skills and I agree with a lot that has been put out in this thread, we really need Harmes plus another jet rotating through the middle and develop a better blocking and separation strategy so that we can exploit Clayton and Tracc's clearance dominance through the middle. Melksham isn't the answer. AVB for short stints, I want to see more of Sparrow, Jordon, Rivers,  Kossie, Baker & Hunt utilised more and no doubt Jackson & Brown helping Weid in the forward line and if TMac is finished we need to make the hard call sooner rather than later. I also like the call for a genuine mid field coach ala Mitchell, Voss, etc.

[deanox 9,902]

 

17 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

15th for uncontested possession differential.

12th for tackles inside 50 differential.

18th for least opponent turnovers.

Couldn't find a tackle differential ranking, but we're 18th for tackles and 9th for opponent tackles.

All paints a picture of a team that isn't applying much pressure.

 

 

16 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

As the OP said, we're 15th for clearances.

But we're 7th for average clearance differential (at +1.4). So we're top 8 for having more clearances than our opponents despite being bottom 4 for total clearances.

I think that must say we play a low stoppage game. So our raw numbers are low but we still win more than our opponents.

We're also 9th for inside 50 differential at +2.2. Port lead at +10, then it's Richmond, Brisbane, Collingwood, Geelong, the Dogs, St Kilda s and Carlton. So the top 8 for inside 50 differential this year has seven finalists and Carlton. Then us. West Coast, the missing finalist, is 10th.

Goodwin always talks about it being a forward half game. That inside 50 stat lends support to that theory. 

I think these two tell the story perfectly. 

We win more clearances than our opposition. We thrive on contested ball. But we try to play a fast pin point disposal game with lower quality disposal. That means we turn it over more and have less uncontested possessions (which are usually long disposal chains). 

The least opponent turnovers is interesting because we are also the number 1 intercept team (according to AFL Stats pro). I'm assuming this is May and Lever in the back line getting intercepts but less pressure around the ground causing turnovers.

Deapite having more i50s we actually average less disposals than our opponents. This goes against the "overpossesion" theory. 

 

To me, we are doing two main things wrong:

- Kicking into forward 50 isn't good enough.  Midfield forward connection etc.

- Not forcing enough stoppages. Instead of halving contests and getting a ball up or throw in, we are turning the ball over. 

 

This may be a result of losing the TMac contested marking as well as poor kicking inside 50.

It's interesting because in raw numbers it looks really fixable. If we can improve 10 i50 kicks per game so that they really in a stoppage instead of a rebound, we'd probably play more to our strengths. 

 

 

[titan_uranus 24,983]

7 minutes ago, deanox said:

 

 

I think these two tell the story perfectly. 

We win more clearances than our opposition. We thrive on contested ball. But we try to play a fast pin point disposal game with lower quality disposal. That means we turn it over more and have less uncontested possessions (which are usually long disposal chains). 

The least opponent turnovers is interesting because we are also the number 1 intercept team (according to AFL Stats pro). I'm assuming this is May and Lever in the back line getting intercepts but less pressure around the ground causing turnovers.

Deapite having more i50s we actually average less disposals than our opponents. This goes against the "overpossesion" theory. 

 

To me, we are doing two main things wrong:

- Kicking into forward 50 isn't good enough.  Midfield forward connection etc.

- Not forcing enough stoppages. Instead of halving contests and getting a ball up or throw in, we are turning the ball over. 

 

This may be a result of losing the TMac contested marking as well as poor kicking inside 50.

It's interesting because in raw numbers it looks really fixable. If we can improve 10 i50 kicks per game so that they really in a stoppage instead of a rebound, we'd probably play more to our strengths. 

 

 

I think on the idea of us not forcing enough stoppages, our tackles are an issue.

How often does it feel like opponents break our tackles easily and get out of sticky situations?

[deanox 9,902]

4 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

I think on the idea of us not forcing enough stoppages, our tackles are an issue.

How often does it feel like opponents break our tackles easily and get out of sticky situations?

I wish those stats were available.

Tackles only counts a tackle that results in dispossing an opponent (inc forcing a ball up).

There are stats for attempted tackles, broken tackles, etc. I think these are aost more important, because in a little handball chain you might have 5 tackles, all which force the opponent to dispose of the ball under pressure but none that register as a tackle. Then we have genuine missed/broken tackles, which are a problem. 

I don't really like the tackle stats for this reason. Sydney and Adelaide were 2nd and 3rd for tackles this year. West Coast and us were 17th and 18th. Means nothing. 

We were 6th for tackles inside 50 and 7 of the finalists are in the top 9 for that stat (apart from Carlton and us) so correlates with ladder well.

 

Also our centre mids are great tacklers.  Oliver is one of the best in the comp. He had the third most tackles in the comp. Viney was 28 and Petracca was 54.

Edited September 23, 2020 by deanox

[Axis of Bob 11,766]

Yeah, I think most of this thread has got it around the wrong way. The point about the clearance differential is the most important, as we are actually a good clearance team overall (as per the stats). You can say we should amke tweaks, change the balance etc. but, even so, clearances are still a strength of ours.

But we play a low stoppage game, which is strange because we are very strong here. 

Why? I think because we aren't a strong team at locking the ball inside 50. We don't get repeat stoppages inside our forward line, but instead we win the ball back deeper than most due to our strong defence. Interestingly some of our best wins have been when conceding more inside 50s and winning through transition.

The information is incomplete because the real information we need is scores from stoppages differential. If we score strongly from stoppages whilst restricting the opposition, then overall clearance numbers are largely irrelevant. The real answer is that we simply don't have enough information to know exactly how effective we are. 

Or, more to the point, the answer to the original question is "I'm not sure that this is even a problem".

[FritschyBusiness 1,478]

Just in regards to the team not creating stoppages, once Clarko complained about holding the ball and the umpiring changed, stoppages dropped in general league wide because of the bull-[censored] interpretation change

Edited September 23, 2020 by FritschyBusiness

[Adam The God 30,153]

4 hours ago, deanox said:

 

 

I think these two tell the story perfectly. 

We win more clearances than our opposition. We thrive on contested ball. But we try to play a fast pin point disposal game with lower quality disposal. That means we turn it over more and have less uncontested possessions (which are usually long disposal chains). 

The least opponent turnovers is interesting because we are also the number 1 intercept team (according to AFL Stats pro). I'm assuming this is May and Lever in the back line getting intercepts but less pressure around the ground causing turnovers.

Deapite having more i50s we actually average less disposals than our opponents. This goes against the "overpossesion" theory. 

 

To me, we are doing two main things wrong:

- Kicking into forward 50 isn't good enough.  Midfield forward connection etc.

- Not forcing enough stoppages. Instead of halving contests and getting a ball up or throw in, we are turning the ball over. 

 

This may be a result of losing the TMac contested marking as well as poor kicking inside 50.

It's interesting because in raw numbers it looks really fixable. If we can improve 10 i50 kicks per game so that they really in a stoppage instead of a rebound, we'd probably play more to our strengths. 

 

 

Good post mate. 

Ultimately, we are trying to play a game that won't really pay off unless we have a lot of forward half pressure. Problem is, as you say, we don't bring enough forward half pressure. IMO this is down to our terribly unbalanced forwardline, where half the guys we select don't tackle.

I'd be going all in on pressure forwards with good goal sense. See if we can shake anyone loose from Richmond or Geelong.

Edited September 23, 2020 by A F

[Ted Lasso 19,414]

It's a really tricky one to solve but i think it starts with

1. We don't get anywhere near enough value from Max Gawns dominance. 
2. we don't have great system around stoppages and this makes it really difficult for us to stop run ons, teams can get hold of us in the midfield even if we clearly have the more talented midfield. 
3. when we do get a clearance our disposal inside 50 combined with our poor system and forward craft inside the 50 means we don't get a lot of easy lead up goals 

I think everyone has harped on this a fair bit in various threads but a team lacking system to the extent we have has a very serious problem with their senior coach and FB dept not getting the best out of them. 

I'd argue we're winning games on pure talent, but our coaching is nowhere near the level. i think if we get that right, we will get the above right and we can become a genuine premiership threat and a much more consistent team quite quickly. 

This is why i personally would be considering replacing Simon Goodwin with Ross Lyon. Lyon coached teams are well known for great balanced stoppage systems which allow the teams to make the most of dominance and to also defend from that position as well when other teams are getting on top. 

[Adam The God 30,153]

3 hours ago, Axis of Bob said:

Yeah, I think most of this thread has got it around the wrong way. The point about the clearance differential is the most important, as we are actually a good clearance team overall (as per the stats). You can say we should amke tweaks, change the balance etc. but, even so, clearances are still a strength of ours.

But we play a low stoppage game, which is strange because we are very strong here. 

Why? I think because we aren't a strong team at locking the ball inside 50. We don't get repeat stoppages inside our forward line, but instead we win the ball back deeper than most due to our strong defence. Interestingly some of our best wins have been when conceding more inside 50s and winning through transition.

The information is incomplete because the real information we need is scores from stoppages differential. If we score strongly from stoppages whilst restricting the opposition, then overall clearance numbers are largely irrelevant. The real answer is that we simply don't have enough information to know exactly how effective we are. 

Or, more to the point, the answer to the original question is "I'm not sure that this is even a problem".

See, this is why I wonder whether we need to revert potentially to a stronger more aggressive press like the 18 man press we used in 2018. We managed to lock teams inside our forward 50 a lot that year. 2017 as well. We thoroughly dominated teams for large portions of the game. 

I like the idea that we do have a second way of playing if we want now. And that is to sit deeper and press in the middle of the ground and zone across the forward half, rather than everyone pressing. 

It may well require us to play the more aggressive press where appropriate and then know when to revert to the second system.

To me this is the plan B that we've lacked for so long. I don't think we're particularly good at the three zone midfield press, but with time and another pre season, who knows?

[Queanbeyan Demon 6,841]

22 hours ago, Earl Hood said:

In general at training the game simulations don’t often resemble what we do game day.

Has been thus for decades . . . but good call EH. I used to play footy when we turned up to training and did circle work and on Saturdays were told to "go straight down the guts". Now players turn up to training and train straight line and go out and play circle work. Bizarre. 

[deanox 9,902]

34 minutes ago, A F said:

Good post mate. 

Ultimately, we are trying to play a game that won't really pay off unless we have a lot of forward half pressure. Problem is, as you say, we don't bring enough forward half pressure. IMO this is down to our terribly unbalanced forwardline, where half the guys we select don't tackle.

I'd be going all in on pressure forwards with good goal sense. See if we can shake anyone loose from Richmond or Geelong.

Melkshams shocking year really didn't help either. 

If you think about it, we started with Pickett, ANB, Spargo, Bedford, Melksham and Fritsch in that forward line,  trying to create the pressure. It clearly didn't work: perhaps they aren't manic enough? Perhaps they were too inexperienced playing together and couldn't set up right? Perhaps it was because we bombed it long to smalls?

[Adam The God 30,153]

1 hour ago, deanox said:

Melkshams shocking year really didn't help either. 

If you think about it, we started with Pickett, ANB, Spargo, Bedford, Melksham and Fritsch in that forward line,  trying to create the pressure. It clearly didn't work: perhaps they aren't manic enough? Perhaps they were too inexperienced playing together and couldn't set up right? Perhaps it was because we bombed it long to smalls?

You've still got two guys that don't tackle at all; Spargo and ANB are inconsistent in that area; and Kozzie and Bedford hadn't played an AFL game before. This impacts upon consistency obviously.

[deanox 9,902]

2 minutes ago, A F said:

You've still got two guys that don't tackle at all; Spargo and ANB are inconsistent in that area; and Kozzie and Bedford hadn't played an AFL game before. This impacts upon consistency obviously.

Yep exactly. Even when we go with small/mid forwards they are ineffective in this area. You might get away with it if you are the inside 50 goal assist master Melksham was in 2018, but otherwise you need to pressure. I actually think that's why ANB gets so much of a run. He is better than almost any others in that area. 

[picket fence 17,100]

23 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Otherwise:

Centre square:
1. Gawn: is not always a great centre square ruck. Doesn't jump - especially when coming back from a PCL, so often hits to one area of the clockface. Battles as well as he can to follow up but it's hard for him to chase guys far younger and quicker. Jackson hopefully starts to see some centre square time next year, he can be a real weapon in there.

2. Individually: the mids all have some issues. Brayshaw can't defend. Petracca isn't great at it either. Viney battles to give off creative handballs to free runners. And Oliver. Oliver gets sat on and then gives hot potato handballs unless he's going backwards or at best sideways, his lack of left foot or confidence in his right means he's nowhere near the centre bounce player he should be. Doesn't get any help from the umps for holding either.

3. Balance: The issues above compound each other. Brayshaw's the best link player of our mids - dishing or receiving handballs, but Goodwin doesn't trust him to defend. Viney had a period of not trusting his kicking like Oliver. All 3 of Viney, Petracca and Clarry both love diving in at the ball leaving no one to get the handball.

Around the ground:
1. Team work and structure. We're often lazy to set up or not on the same page as Max.

2. Poor quality half back flankers/half forward flankers/wingers. Salem and Rivers off half back are handy stoppage players, and Vanders sure has his moments on a wing. Otherwise Langdon isn't and our half forwards are often poor unless it's Tracc playing forward and rolling up to the stoppage.

It all leads to the same conclusion ... GET RID OF GOODWIN and assistants!

[Van Demons Land 29]

Issues of concern going forward

1. Poor connection between Max Gawn and midfield team from initial clearance opportunities

2. Over use of hand ball continually

3. Poor set shot goal kicking

4. Mid quarter any game fade outs allowing opposition sides to pile up a number of goals in quick succession eg. Bulldogs

Other than that all good. Mid table side at best