2 hours ago, binman said:

You don't think there is an element of overreacting to one game in the whole 'our midfield bulls set up has ti change' palaver?

I mean, yes we need more speed and outside run in the middle. Which is why they are using Langdon (by the by many people are arguing we should end that experiment) and koz as permanent mids.

BUT:

- maxy had his least impactful game for a long time. 

- tracc, our best midfield bull only spent 77% TOG and basically played deep forward for half a game

- Chandler played on ball in the last and we got smashed out of the middle

- in the previous match we almost beat a top 4 team in large part because of our ability to score from stoppages BECAUSE of our bulls

- the roos absolutely obliterated us at centre bounces and stoppages with a midfield full of bulls!

The point of my post was to help address the long-bombing certain players constantly do (and have done for years) into the forward 50 from the center square bounces. So i don't believe I'm "overreacting to one game". Petracca and Viney are poor kicks, and they consistently bomb - and don't seem to want to - or are incapable of change. I happen to believe that they would serve us much better by predominately playing forward. 

Oliver, as our best extractor, stays in the middle, and hands off to players who can deliver as required (and as instructed) into the forward 50. I also don't believe Langdon should be in the middle (he is also a poor deliverer) His best role for the team, I believe, is on the wing; and when he is not there, we are the poorer for it. 

These discussions will vary supporter to supporter depending on the level of individual attachment/bias the supporter has to a player. 

Some great posts and a lot of what has been said by Neil and GS I agree with as well as the objective views of those in the media who do have a clue. 

Whilst playing without McVee, Windsor and Pickett hasn't been ideal, it's been overblown by some. Like it is most years. And now rather than missing May, Trac or Oliver, supporters are using McVee, Windsor and Pickett as a main reason for losses. Injuries happen to every club every year and demonlanders seen to give it so much airtime year-in, year-out. 

If you have a strong system and your players bring energy and zest every game, a few injuries here and there can be covered, (see Hawthorn, Collingwood, Brisbane etc). We simply do not have a strong system and our best players are underperforming two rounds into a brand new season.

Whether it's ultra conservative and predictable kick-outs to Max Gawn, years of recruiting competitive and contested ball winners/runners with a penchant for panic kicking the ball forward or playing underdone players consistently (Spargo being the most recent) and ALL THAT in between, I think it's obvious that Goodwin just has not been ruthless enough with this group post 21 to stay with the leading pack and we're suffering the consequences of his stubborn approach. 

Good luck trying to consistently get quality ball inside 50 with Viney, Langdon, Sparrow, Trac, Oliver, (Sharp) replacing ANB etc. For every one game that it clicks, there a five that don't. That's just a product of having players who aren't naturally great kicks and decision makers with ball in hand. 

Goody has put too much faith into a group of very similar players to execute something they simply cannot on a consistent basis. It's like asking fish to jump. 

And the most frustrating thing is hearing him spit out the same thing in press conferences as he has for four years now. And I mean EXACTLY the same thing. 

 

 

 

Edited March 26Mar 26 by Redleg_Knowledge

1 hour ago, Redleg_Knowledge said:

I think it's obvious that Goodwin just has not been ruthless enough with this group post 21 to stay with the leading pack ...

In 22 and 23 we *were* in the leading pack, finishing top 4 both seasons. Even last year, in round 12 we were sitting 4th and as late as round 19 we were in the 8.

Bit of rewriting of history/hindsight bias going on ...

 

Edited March 26Mar 26 by bing181

20 hours ago, bing181 said:

In 22 and 23 we *were* in the leading pack, finishing top 4 both seasons. Even last year, in round 12 we were sitting 4th and as late as round 19 we were in the 8.

Bit of rewriting of history/hindsight bias going on ...

 

Fair call.

By 'staying ahead', I'm also referring to game style. Not just where we finished on the ladder. I just don't think we've made enough of a shift post 23' finals exit. 

But I know plenty of others believe we've made significant changes to game plan. Each to their own. 

Many of the same issues have been plaguing us for years.. And those cracks are big big cracks now. 

 

Edited March 27Mar 27 by Redleg_Knowledge

This morning on radio Hoyne from Champion Data debuted a new “speed of ball movement” stat, an attempt to measure how fast sides move from D50 to forward 50.

100 is considered average pace. He said so far this year we are over 100 for the first time since the flag.

13 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

This morning on radio Hoyne from Champion Data debuted a new “speed of ball movement” stat, an attempt to measure how fast sides move from D50 to forward 50.

100 is considered average pace. He said so far this year we are over 100 for the first time since the flag.

Well that is reassuring then. It will just then come down to engrained behaviours to becoming more effective at it.

Still need to fix forward connection though. Albeit it should be a little easier with a more open forward line.

On 25/03/2025 at 18:37, GS_1905 said:

Interesting segment from Hoyne in SEN on atm. Short storey is that the style that won us the premiership in 21 is pretty much dead in the water and probably has been for 12+ months.

Ball movement is king. Better kickers and decision makers is what will matter in the modern game. No surprises there.

All pundits acknowledged we are trying to change and have some good young talent that should develop. Piled on Carlton as they are in no man’s land. Having said that the Bkies and the Dees were bottom 2 on offence profile so there’s that. 

I think what we do with Clarry, Trac, Sparrow and Viney will define the success of MFCs next era. They are excess to requirements   in the modern game. Clearly you can’t get rid of all of them - nor should we try too but we do need to explore trades  to free up salary cap space and get into the draft or trade space.

 

 

Who is Bkies??????

8 minutes ago, Go Ds said:

Who is Bkies??????

Typo. Blues.

4 minutes ago, GS_1905 said:

Typo. Blues.

Thank you! I really was getting annoyed that I somehow should've deduced this quickly

2 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

This morning on radio Hoyne from Champion Data debuted a new “speed of ball movement” stat, an attempt to measure how fast sides move from D50 to forward 50.

100 is considered average pace. He said so far this year we are over 100 for the first time since the flag.

Does it count going backwards?

1 hour ago, SPC said:

Does it count going backwards?

From what I recall, it factors direction in (I recall him saying something about it taking into account kicks which go sideways).

"Brisbane, the fastest team in the competition last year. Sydney, the second slowest, but both of them are the highest scoring teams.

“So you look at the second slowest with Sydney, it’s not a negative, that is just how they want to play, it’s working for them.

You go to the year before, Collingwood were actually the third slowest team in the competition, but it got them the flag."

At the very least, the way they are calculating this new metric doesnt sound like something that is necessarily correlated with success but nevermind, lets continue to pray at the ball movement altar.

Edited March 28Mar 28 by Jjrogan

On another track, I have been thinking about some of the players we have let go - Jordon, Bedford and Harms in particular. All of them have made their way elsewhere as taggers. We have not really focused on having a tagger - Harms did it occasionally but not consistently. But it didn't seem to be a part of Goody's method.

But at the moment there are a number of players who absolutely MUST be tagged - eg Cripps, Daicos, Neale - and I wonder if we should develop a player in that role. And as someone who just doesn't seem to be making it, but who is a good size and might have the discipline, I wonder if Woey Jr could do that?

On 26/03/2025 at 08:55, Neil Crompton said:

One solution might be to keep Tracc and Viney out of the centre bounces and replace them with Kossie (when available) and Chandler (and Langford when gets a handle on the senior game) - players who can deliver the ball properly into the forward line. Give Tracc and Viney to Chaplin to get the most out of them in our forward line - that is where they are needed and best used IMO. 

Agreed, I'd keep Viney out of centre bounce unless Clarry is on the bench, but I'd prefer Trac becomes the man in the case of Oliver on the bench.

I don't think we have to be as aggressive as trading out all of Oliver, Viney, Sparrow and Trac, @GS_1905 .

I'd just be playing Trac majority forward, with 40% mid time, Viney as a pressure small forward that can attend forward 50 stoppages and Sparrow out of the team, unless he plays purely as a midfield stopper.

Oliver, Kozzy, Trac, Rivers, Langford and even Chandler definitely has more balance to it, with Windsor and Bowey off the back of stoppages ala 2017-2018, plus Lindsay and Salem at high half back.

I also agree with @binman that it's easy to overreact after one game.

On 26/03/2025 at 18:58, Redleg_Knowledge said:

Whilst playing without McVee, Windsor and Pickett hasn't been ideal, it's been overblown by some. Like it is most years. And now rather than missing May, Trac or Oliver, supporters are using McVee, Windsor and Pickett as a main reason for losses. Injuries happen to every club every year and demonlanders seen to give it so much airtime year-in, year-out. 

If you have a strong system and your players bring energy and zest every game, a few injuries here and there can be covered, (see Hawthorn, Collingwood, Brisbane etc). We simply do not have a strong system and our best players are underperforming two rounds into a brand new season.

On 26/03/2025 at 18:58, Redleg_Knowledge said:

Goody has put too much faith into a group of very similar players to execute something they simply cannot on a consistent basis. It's like asking fish to jump.  

So this analysis is basically contradictory or at the very least bad faith.

You can't dismiss the missing players who will make the new game style work and allow us to implement it and then claim the coach is putting his faith in the wrong guys.

We've been a stoppage team for years, until we shifted in the first half of last year.

The game style we want to play that is fast and accurate requires the missing players from the back.

If we can get some continuity with our best team, we can have an advantage over those teams you mention with our stoppage game as those other teams rely on transition for scores.

We just need to be good enough transition and keep our stoppage game going (our stoppage game was dreadful all game against North).

Here's my Plan..!!!

Forget all the Hype, Huggies and High Fives!!

Forget the Stats!!

Forget Goody and the thousands of coaches and overpaid hangers on.

Revert to the Ted Whitten Game Plan...The only plan that has ever worked.

Follow Plan A..There is no Plan B

Plan A is......

See Ball, Get Ball, Kick Ball!!!

Hit 'em Hard and Hit'em often and do it with.....

110% Guts and Determination for 110 minutes!!!

I have a radical, pipe dream suggestion: Jack Viney to become our lockdown defender on opposition small forwards.

Hear me out.

This could address two problems. 1. We lack a small defender for this role and his tenacity could work here . 2. JV is one of the main culprits in bombing into the forward line, a regular cause of turnovers.

I respect JV immensely, and I know that this suggestion is far fetched. But, still ...

2 hours ago, Adam The God said:

So this analysis is basically contradictory or at the very least bad faith.

You can't dismiss the missing players who will make the new game style work and allow us to implement it and then claim the coach is putting his faith in the wrong guys.

We've been a stoppage team for years, until we shifted in the first half of last year.

The game style we want to play that is fast and accurate requires the missing players from the back.

If we can get some continuity with our best team, we can have an advantage over those teams you mention with our stoppage game as those other teams rely on transition for scores.

We just need to be good enough transition and keep our stoppage game going (our stoppage game was dreadful all game against North).

What are you on about.

I stated that all teams have injuries and using it as the main excuse for our losses is ridiculous.

And outside of those missing players, we have a core group who make the same errors consistently. And that's the group I'm referring to. And I don't think Goodwin has done enough to add to our list. You may think it's enough, but we've seen what we're seeing now in this game for how long?

Connection, skills, decision making. It's the recurring nightmare. Something has to give.

@Adam The God

What influence would Windsor and McVee have had on Langdon's entry into the 50 just then?

Please let me know.

And Viney's kick who just had a completely open Sharp inside 50 but hit a gold coast player?

Let me know!

Edited March 29Mar 29 by Redleg_Knowledge

I'm going to go out on a limb at 3/4 time against Gold Coast and suggest that not having a single score or mark inside 50 from anyone over 190cm (except a behind from Gawn) might be a problem.

Looking a little more closely, we don't even have any score involvements from tall forwards. Gawn has 4, May and McDonald 2 each. That's it for over 190cm.

Ah, a quick correction - the Chandler goal means Van Rooyen now has 2 score involvements.

Yes, I feel like this may be an issue.

1 hour ago, Redleg_Knowledge said:

@Adam The God

What influence would Windsor and McVee have had on Langdon's entry into the 50 just then?

Please let me know.

1 hour ago, Redleg_Knowledge said:

And Viney's kick who just had a completely open Sharp inside 50 but hit a gold coast player?

Let me know!

So, what you're saying is, having high quality kicks and decision makers available to play their role would have no effect on whether less reliable kicks and decision makers end up in the positions where we want good kicking and decision making.

Mate, there's discussion to be had but take a breath before just snarking.

Do we have game plan?

If we do the players don't understand it. I see nothing that resembles a game plan.

5 hours ago, Adam The God said:

Agreed, I'd keep Viney out of centre bounce unless Clarry is on the bench, but I'd prefer Trac becomes the man in the case of Oliver on the bench.

I don't think we have to be as aggressive as trading out all of Oliver, Viney, Sparrow and Trac, @GS_1905 .

I'd just be playing Trac majority forward, with 40% mid time, Viney as a pressure small forward that can attend forward 50 stoppages and Sparrow out of the team, unless he plays purely as a midfield stopper.

Oliver, Kozzy, Trac, Rivers, Langford and even Chandler definitely has more balance to it, with Windsor and Bowey off the back of stoppages ala 2017-2018, plus Lindsay and Salem at high half back.

I also agree with @binman that it's easy to overreact after one game.

It’s now two bad games @Adam The God @binman , it’s not overreacting anymore, it’s just reacting.

Trac majority forward doesn’t work because our midfield depth outside of him isn’t good enough.

We have major personnel issues but we also have best 23 “locks” who are too far below acceptable standard (Viney, Fritsch, JVR, Petty, Rivers, Salem).

We clearly don’t have the foot skills to chip the ball around in the backline. May, Rivers, Lever, Petty, Oliver, Viney and Langdon can’t maintain possession and will turn it over. I know kicking down the line to Max isn’t a modern way forward but we don’t have the list profile to play any other method.