Burgo, the EPL & Shorter Quarters

[Demonland 72,236]

 

[chook fowler 19,459]

Gee Burgo is impressive. A great get. Also cudos again to Ben who does a good job with Talking Points. He is well prepared, asks intelligent questions and is respectful without being too obviously PR driven.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

You can easily argue that, over the years, we've made some poor choices with off field personnel.  

However, we've got it right with Burgess.  Not only is our injury list one of the best in the league (and when was the last time we could say that?) but we are fit and firing.  We are running out games strongly and we never look tired.  

Burgess was brought in to get the fitness aspect right, and while he doesn't dictate how we kick a footy or the decisions we make on the field, he has put the players in the best possible position to get the best out of themselves, and he has to be commended for that.

[Engorged Onion 10,223]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2020/jul/28/premier-league-2019-20-what-we-learned-tactically-klopp-liverpool-guardiola-manchester-city?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

ive just read through this article and cannot help see some similarities as to what Goodwin is trying to do at the Dees... even if you’re not that interested in soccer, this is a great piece on how tactics fit into soccer more generally, and how certain elements fit into our game. Particularly the high press.

timely with this new EPL thread

Edited July 28, 2020 by Engorged Onion

[3183 Dee 2,853]

50 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

Gee Burgo is impressive. A great get. Also cudos again to Ben who does a good job with Talking Points. He is well prepared, asks intelligent questions and is respectful without being too obviously PR driven.

Yes - Burgo really oozes a quiet confidence. Although it’s been a weird season, it’s notable that we’ve had no soft tissue injuries yet (touch wood).

Also agree with your comment about Ben Gibson - he’s doing a great job of the interviews, not just PR fluff pieces and not afraid to go in-depth with some of the questions. 

[YesitwasaWin4theAges 6,704]

37 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2020/jul/28/premier-league-2019-20-what-we-learned-tactically-klopp-liverpool-guardiola-manchester-city?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

ive just read through this article and cannot help see some similarities as to what Goodwin is trying to do at the Dees... even if you’re not that interested in soccer, this is a great piece on how tactics fit into soccer more generally, and how certain elements fit into our game. Particularly the high press.

timely with this new EPL thread

Learning from the best in Klopp, alot of people on here wouldn't like hearing that.

We have tightened up at the back this year, Jurgen could be rubbing off on Simon, just waiting for the Forward line to click into gear. Could Tmac back in the line up unleash a 3 pronged Tall Forward line and take us to the promise land?

One can only sit back and hope.

Edited July 28, 2020 by Win4theAges

[Skuit 10,031]

Soccer players don't get slammed into the ground multiple times per game - although it does appear they cop the occasional sniper fire to the legs. Love Burgo (if I was Nick Kyrgios I would have him on the phone) - but I just hope we're being as tactically smart as can be. 

[Adam The God 30,287]

1 hour ago, Engorged Onion said:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2020/jul/28/premier-league-2019-20-what-we-learned-tactically-klopp-liverpool-guardiola-manchester-city?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

ive just read through this article and cannot help see some similarities as to what Goodwin is trying to do at the Dees... even if you’re not that interested in soccer, this is a great piece on how tactics fit into soccer more generally, and how certain elements fit into our game. Particularly the high press.

timely with this new EPL thread

Great article. Thanks for sharing mate. I got a lot out of it. This is probably too tangential but this is great also: https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2020/feb/01/pioneering-reds-the-reds-jurgen-klopp-liverpool-pressing-unlikely-origin

It's not something I'd thought of but it makes complete sense. That the ideas of a structural engineer could be used to break down defenses and create attacks in a sporting context is fascinating to me. It lives in a similar world to the Rand Corporation's beliefs surrounding game theory and how technocrats have applied this to form much of neoliberal thought. 

I find it all fascinating and modern tactics in the EPL I get swept up in and it's why I loved Clarkson's initial innovation of the clusters and then the keepings off game. That sort of ingenuity deserves reward IMO and similarly, our so called Diamond Defence was another really interesting progression on the modern AFL zone.

I feel like the tactics of football/soccer are a mile ahead of the AFL/footy though, but perhaps this is partly because there is only one country playing our game and less ideas floating around. We have a different game of course, but the presss and zoning in the AFL is still particularly simple. I wonder whether with reduced list sizes, coupled with a strain on the draft pool post COVID, whether a new tactician will come to the fore.

As for the Burgo interview, I really liked it. Seems calm, switched on and a great asset to our football club.

[Engorged Onion 10,223]

7 hours ago, A F said:

Great article. Thanks for sharing mate. I got a lot out of it. This is probably too tangential but this is great also: https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2020/feb/01/pioneering-reds-the-reds-jurgen-klopp-liverpool-pressing-unlikely-origin

It's not something I'd thought of but it makes complete sense. That the ideas of a structural engineer could be used to break down defenses and create attacks in a sporting context is fascinating to me. It lives in a similar world to the Rand Corporation's beliefs surrounding game theory and how technocrats have applied this to form much of neoliberal thought. 

I find it all fascinating and modern tactics in the EPL I get swept up in and it's why I loved Clarkson's initial innovation of the clusters and then the keepings off game. That sort of ingenuity deserves reward IMO and similarly, our so called Diamond Defence was another really interesting progression on the modern AFL zone.

I feel like the tactics of football/soccer are a mile ahead of the AFL/footy though, but perhaps this is partly because there is only one country playing our game and less ideas floating around. We have a different game of course, but the presss and zoning in the AFL is still particularly simple. I wonder whether with reduced list sizes, coupled with a strain on the draft pool post COVID, whether a new tactician will come to the fore.

As for the Burgo interview, I really liked it. Seems calm, switched on and a great asset to our football club.

Yes AF, I did read that as a follow up (click on as many links as possible to make sense of things), and essentially it explains how the evolution of tactics in sports evolve, its' no different here in Australia. Remenber the days when publicly we were worried about flooding??? Jonathon WIlson is a fantastic sports writer... I used to read him 20-10 years ago when I was a keen follower of the EPL - I've drifted a fair bit - but it's always good to go and have a really thorough forensic analysis of strategy, I wish there was more access, or more content like that for the public to consume here.

 

 

[Grimes Times 1,278]

https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/brukie-and-burgo-the-podcast/id1519942623

There is also some great stuff in a couple eps of this about Burgo's background and the EPL

[bobby1554 1,244]

Putting aside the tactical arguments as raised above, the premise that you can draw a conclusion that just because Burgess has experience in soccer physical performance management can relate to AFL, is fundamentally flawed. Soccer is mostly a non-contact sport, and the grounds are a lot smaller. I would defy anyone to argue that soccer is as physically demanding as AFL. I think the idea of not managing players through this next 3 weeks is fraught with danger

[sue 9,107]

11 minutes ago, bobby1554 said:

Putting aside the tactical arguments as raised above, the premise that you can draw a conclusion that just because Burgess has experience in soccer physical performance management can relate to AFL, is fundamentally flawed. Soccer is mostly a non-contact sport, and the grounds are a lot smaller. I would defy anyone to argue that soccer is as physically demanding as AFL. I think the idea of not managing players through this next 3 weeks is fraught with danger

Of course. But equally it would be a flawed assumption that Burgess is not aware of all that.

[bobby1554 1,244]

1 minute ago, sue said:

Of course. But equally it would be a flawed assumption that Burgess is not aware of all that.

I don’t think so Sue. He, and Goody, have both said they will not be resting players through this block of games, because they are of the belief that it works in the EPL and other similar leagues. As I said, fraught with danger as they are totally different sports with different demands on the body. We will see in 21 days I suppose

 

[Adam The God 30,287]

23 minutes ago, bobby1554 said:

Putting aside the tactical arguments as raised above, the premise that you can draw a conclusion that just because Burgess has experience in soccer physical performance management can relate to AFL, is fundamentally flawed. Soccer is mostly a non-contact sport, and the grounds are a lot smaller. I would defy anyone to argue that soccer is as physically demanding as AFL. I think the idea of not managing players through this next 3 weeks is fraught with danger

I'm not sure you know soccer that well then. Playing midfield in soccer is incredibly physically demanding, particularly with the pressing game in vogue. 

Since Burgess left Arsenal, they've been very ordinary tracking back into defence.

Yes, they're different sports, but I wouldn't underestimate the amount of running done on the majority of a soccer pitch. It may be a smaller pitch, but that doesn't mean there's not just as much, if not more, running.

[Sir Why You Little 37,052]

3 minutes ago, A F said:

I'm not sure you know soccer that well then. Playing midfield in soccer is incredibly physically demanding, particularly with the pressing game in vogue. 

Since Burgess left Arsenal, they've been very ordinary tracking back into defence.

Yes, they're different sports, but I wouldn't underestimate the amount of running done on the majority of a soccer pitch. It may be a smaller pitch, but that doesn't mean there's not just as much, if not more, running.

Yep.

11 Players constantly running. EPL is a tough sport if you watch the Close ups. Not as much upper body of course, but shins, ankles and feet cop a hammering

[Engorged Onion 10,223]

20 minutes ago, bobby1554 said:

I don’t think so Sue. He, and Goody, have both said they will not be resting players through this block of games, because they are of the belief that it works in the EPL and other similar leagues. As I said, fraught with danger as they are totally different sports with different demands on the body. We will see in 21 days I suppose

 

As they are experts in their field, with a range of other experts at their beck and call to draw data and information from, from a biological, training and biomechanical perspective, do you really genuinely think that they would proclaim not resting players publicly, without understanding deeply what the similarities AND differences are of the two sports..

Quick maths 2x45 minutes halves= 90min

4x16 min quarters = 94min

Both have periodic relentless running, whilst also being stationary periodically. I am sure this has been quantified. 

Also, the effort levels of walking, running, sprinting (and how things track between the two sports).

 

Not withstanding Burgess has a long association with the AFL before he went to the EPL.

They've both had roughly 20-25 years at the elite end of the spectrum in this sport.

It reminds me of the Apostrophe statement.

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN KNOWING YOUR [censored] AND KNOWING YOU’RE [censored]

I dare say Burgess falls in to the latter category. 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Engorged Onion

[sue 9,107]

26 minutes ago, bobby1554 said:

I don’t think so Sue. He, and Goody, have both said they will not be resting players through this block of games, because they are of the belief that it works in the EPL and other similar leagues. As I said, fraught with danger as they are totally different sports with different demands on the body. We will see in 21 days I suppose

 

It's a logical error to assume that because they publicly say that they don't plan to rest anyone, to conclude as you do that they are unaware of the differences you listed.  It is possible they are aware and yet came to a different conclusion than you.  (And of course who knows what they say/plan in private).

Edited July 29, 2020 by sue

[bobby1554 1,244]

Well, AF, Sue and Engorged Onion, we will agree to disagree, and revisit again in 21 days

[Engorged Onion 10,223]

32 minutes ago, bobby1554 said:

Well, AF, Sue and Engorged Onion, we will agree to disagree, and revisit again in 21 days

Sounds good bobby - out of interest, what's the metric for you to assess whether the approach was appropriate or not?

Rather than looking at a W/L record, I'll be looking for how players compete in the final quarter. I'm not quite sure how to best measure it beyond optics on the tv, as we don't have access to km run per quarter and at what speed per player (unless someone can guide me to those details).

Let's chat in 21 days

[Adam The God 30,287]

7 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

Sounds good bobby - out of interest, what's the metric for you to assess whether the approach was appropriate or not?

Rather than looking at a W/L record, I'll be looking for how players compete in the final quarter. I'm not quite sure how to best measure it beyond optics on the tv, as we don't have access to km run per quarter and at what speed per player (unless someone can guide me to those details).

Let's chat in 21 days

As Burgo says that's not how the club will measure it.

They'll be looking at how we defend and attack across all quarters (within reason).

If our defence remains as solid, I think that'll be a reasonable indicator.

[PaulRB 6,392]

I’m sure the AFL will be collecting a lot of data in the next “compressed” phase of the season. If teams can handle it well then it opens the door to a more than 22 round H&A season in 2021 and beyond... ie more games, more dollars, etc... 

[Grr-owl 1,222]

14 hours ago, A F said:

Great article. Thanks for sharing mate. I got a lot out of it. This is probably too tangential but this is great also: https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2020/feb/01/pioneering-reds-the-reds-jurgen-klopp-liverpool-pressing-unlikely-origin

It's not something I'd thought of but it makes complete sense. That the ideas of a structural engineer could be used to break down defenses and create attacks in a sporting context is fascinating to me. It lives in a similar world to the Rand Corporation's beliefs surrounding game theory and how technocrats have applied this to form much of neoliberal thought. 

I find it all fascinating and modern tactics in the EPL I get swept up in and it's why I loved Clarkson's initial innovation of the clusters and then the keepings off game. That sort of ingenuity deserves reward IMO and similarly, our so called Diamond Defence was another really interesting progression on the modern AFL zone.

I feel like the tactics of football/soccer are a mile ahead of the AFL/footy though, but perhaps this is partly because there is only one country playing our game and less ideas floating around. We have a different game of course, but the presss and zoning in the AFL is still particularly simple. I wonder whether with reduced list sizes, coupled with a strain on the draft pool post COVID, whether a new tactician will come to the fore.

As for the Burgo interview, I really liked it. Seems calm, switched on and a great asset to our football club.

After I left Aus I paid zero attention to footy for fourteen years. Then I discovered the watch AFL app at the time of the final series of 2015 and thought I’d give the kids some Aussie culture. Well, I was blown away by the change in game style. It felt as if at some point, while my back was turned, a team of scientists had been brought in to work out how to play the game. 

[Grr-owl 1,222]

1 hour ago, bobby1554 said:

Well, AF, Sue and Engorged Onion, we will agree to disagree, and revisit again in 21 days

There was an interview with Burgess shortly after he joined the club, maybe on SEN, where he discussed this very issue. As I recall, he said the soccer players do 11 times more accelerations than footy players, but otherwise the games were roughly equivalent in terms of the demand on the body, apart from the length of the game, which doesn’t count this season... Anyone interested might be able to find it. With Garry L and Tim Watson if I remember correctly.

[Engorged Onion 10,223]

38 minutes ago, Grr-owl said:

There was an interview with Burgess shortly after he joined the club, maybe on SEN, where he discussed this very issue. As I recall, he said the soccer players do 11 times more accelerations than footy players, but otherwise the games were roughly equivalent in terms of the demand on the body, apart from the length of the game, which doesn’t count this season... Anyone interested might be able to find it. With Garry L and Tim Watson if I remember correctly.

Thanks for that @Grr-owl

[bing181 9,246]

FWIW: