1 hour ago, drdrake said:

I don't understand, Goodwin's comments Jack is Red and Blue, we want him.  If that is the case with a little over 1 month before trade week starts why haven't we agreed to terms.  You always will have negotiation take place MFC offer a lower amount, Jack wants higher and somewhere in the middle is the actual amount.  Is the MFC offer to low or Jack's management think he is worth a lot more than MFC.  Or like many players/clubs in the past what is said during the season is fluff and he is already out the door.

The only other delay, has the AFL set player salary cap for 2021?

I'm hoping the last question is the reason, but really how can other clubs be approaching player management if they don't know what they have to spend.

ie we want him, have offered him a contract, but it's up to him. If anything, he's not putting pressure on Jack, simply saying he'll make the right decision. 

43 minutes ago, Grr-owl said:

I agree totally on Goodwin persisting with moves that don't work -- I'd add Brayshaw on a wing to your list. Play them where they play best or trade them, I reckon. In that case, trading Jack would open the opportunity for Harmes to do what he does best, and if that improves the team then I'm onside.

Just one more consideration. Can you see the team being improved by keeping Jack in a role as a pressure forward? 

Potentially.

On 9/14/2020 at 9:50 PM, adonski said:

Forgetting Brayshaw, Harmes is faster, bigger, better defensively & a better decision maker in the contest than Jack.

Gotta take the emotion out of the name! 

IMO Harmes is not a natural footballer, he rarely knows what to do in most situations.  In the middle he has looked utterly lost at times playing a non tagging role and was constantly getting caught with the ball.  He looked much better playing a tight tagging role vs good players, because they took him to the ball.  Playing off half back his skill set of closely checking an opponent should have made him a good fit for this role.  He tends to ball watch rather than get in the right positions, have watched him closely over some time now.  For a player with his speed and strength, why is he never breaking lines?  

Why we signed him on for 5 years i will never know!  I feel we will be much better when he is fringe best 22, not an automatic inclusion.   He is hard to find a role for because he does not have much as weapons....strong for guy his size, reasonably quick, average hands, can take a mark, hit and miss by hand or foot.  If he had footy smarts he would be good football player but he does not win his own ball often enough.  His decision making is atrocious most of the time, from stoppages in the middle, to half back.

Only role i see for him is a half forward pressure one, where he wears a good backman, and gets taken to the ball.  He has lot of support from posters here, actually really surprises me....very average footballer.  

Any good tattoo shops on the Gold Coast, need another one for my Birthday!?  

24 minutes ago, NeveroddoreveN said:

IMO Harmes is not a natural footballer, he rarely knows what to do in most situations.  In the middle he has looked utterly lost at times playing a non tagging role and was constantly getting caught with the ball.  He looked much better playing a tight tagging role vs good players, because they took him to the ball.  Playing off half back his skill set of closely checking an opponent should have made him a good fit for this role.  He tends to ball watch rather than get in the right positions, have watched him closely over some time now.  For a player with his speed and strength, why is he never breaking lines?  

Why we signed him on for 5 years i will never know!  I feel we will be much better when he is fringe best 22, not an automatic inclusion.   He is hard to find a role for because he does not have much as weapons....strong for guy his size, reasonably quick, average hands, can take a mark, hit and miss by hand or foot.  If he had footy smarts he would be good football player but he does not win his own ball often enough.  His decision making is atrocious most of the time, from stoppages in the middle, to half back.

Only role i see for him is a half forward pressure one, where he wears a good backman, and gets taken to the ball.  He has lot of support from posters here, actually really surprises me....very average footballer.  

Any good tattoo shops on the Gold Coast, need another one for my Birthday!?  

His move to half back was a failure but I think your assessment is a little harsh. He has played poorly recently, like plenty of others on the list, because he was played out of position. His strengths are hard tagging, gut running both ways, keeps his opponent accountable, can push forward and kick a goal. His drive and application in the final quarter against Freo almost pulled that game out of the fire.

Yes, disposal could be tidier but you could say that about most of the team. Persist with but must be played in his best position.

3 minutes ago, Better days ahead said:

His move to half back was a failure but I think your assessment is a little harsh. He has played poorly recently, like plenty of others on the list, because he was played out of position. His strengths are hard tagging, gut running both ways, keeps his opponent accountable, can push forward and kick a goal. His drive and application in the final quarter against Freo almost pulled that game out of the fire.

Yes, disposal could be tidier but you could say that about most of the team. Persist with but must be played in his best position.

I probably am being harsh on him....more frustrated on the back of a few good games he was extended for 5 years.  

Between Harmes/Brayshaw and Viney we have 3 players that seemingly can't or won't play other positions.  All 3 lack a thing called versatility.  I feel we are way too predictable with all of them in the side.  Not half forwards, not half backs, they are mid or bust types.  We just have too many similar types, and i think if Harmes were not locked into future years, he would be the first i would look to trade out some our predictability.  The problem is a tagger is not needed every week, and a tagger must be able to win their own fair share of the ball anyway.  Like i said in last post one of his biggest issues is he does not know when or where to run, as quite often he is caught ball watching or charging in when he should be waiting on outside.  Decision making is always an issue.

If he can develop some footy smarts he can improve greatly, just not sure he has any/many.

I'm wondering whether the contract term is an issue.  Jack will be 27 next April.  At any time his foot could deteriorate so he may be looking for a 4/5 year deal taking him out to 31 or 32.  Nothing against Jack but I hope we don't offer that. 

In recent times we have given a lot of 4/5 year deals:  TMac (when he had a significant toe injury), Harmes, Langdon, Lever, Tomlinson, May, Brayshaw etc.

While some were necessary how many can we have without impacting list management flexibility.  eg TMac, Tomlinson and Harmes are not best 22 yet signed until 2022, 2023, and 2024 respectively.  Difficult to trade players out for any value when they are not in best 22.

Geelong tend to not offer longer term contracts.  With their interest in Daniher and Crouch and not being a club who pay overs there is a good chance they don't take Jack.  But Geelong wouldn't be the only club considering Jack as an FA. 

Not sure if it’s been said here. But could be Jack is carrying a serious injury re his foot and u der stands his career will not be a long one. needs to maximise his income. 

2 minutes ago, Wells 11 said:

Not sure if it’s been said here. But could be Jack is carrying a serious injury re his foot and u der stands his career will not be a long one. needs to maximise his income. 

That is effectively what I was saying in the post above yours:  extra contract years = more income and more 'security'.  Foot could deteriorate at any time. 

Naturally he wants max $ and high $ in earlier years achieves the same result but will be difficult with sal caps going down.

18 hours ago, A F said:

Even if Harmes was told he wouldn't be playing in the midfield, look at that last quarter against Sydney. He was most certainly thrown into the middle. 

And I think this is apart of what needs to change about Goodwin. Being flexible on positions and players. Don't pigeon hole them. It's very ordinary coaching and leadership IMV. Clearly, he pigeon holed Fritsch as a back and Harmes as a back. Both moves were ultimate failures IMO.

I don't think this is fair AF.

Everyone on here knows we have a midfield squeeze and a conundrum in that almost none of them are capable enough in other positions. But no one knows the clear solution without leaking some talent or messing with our culture. Harmes started out at half-back and Goody identified this as a potential 2020 fix (al a Brayshaw on the wing last year) - with Jones occupying the HFF slot as the only option left to accommodate him in the team. 

It hasn't worked out. And I agree that Goodwin holds onto experiments for too long (e.g. Fritsch in the back-line, yet I also like that he gives ideas room to grow). But Goodwin's and the fan's perception as to our arc and current level of development differ. We're not there just yet - but Simon has to juggle expectations and impatience with development. Why not send Fritsch to learn the half-back role for a year if it's not going to impact our immediate flag chances?

That is the opposite of being stubborn. It's an attempt to build flexible players and develop the team. We want wins now - but I'd rather a truck-load of wins and dominance in the future. It's only been in recent weeks where his rhetoric has switched from training wheels to putting it back on the club and players. It's insanely frustrating but echoes what Buckley previously and now Worsfold have been trying to communicate to their respective fan-bases in recent years. 

Jones will be gone next year. That gives us an extra degree of flexibility. We all know that Harmes is better-suited to a defensive midfield role and then half forward as a secondary option. We all know that TMac and Jetta are cooked, and AVB, and soon Hibberd as well. It's extremely silly to think that Goodwin doesn't recognise this as well. He's doing a decent job of easing the transition, and it's a tricky one with our serious senior leadership and games' experience vacuum.

Come next year and I think all the chips will start falling into the right places. Players in their best positions. Some other holes plugged through trading and drafting. On the topic at hand - I believe it would be absolute folly to let Viney go. We need better midfield coaching for sure but should be able to accommodate Jack, Oliver, Trac, Brayshaw and Harmes in the one midfield - and on paper, i.e what we know they are capable of - we will have assembled the best midfield in the league.

For years to come.  

 

3 hours ago, Skuit said:

I don't think this is fair AF.

Everyone on here knows we have a midfield squeeze and a conundrum in that almost none of them are capable enough in other positions. But no one knows the clear solution without leaking some talent or messing with our culture. Harmes started out at half-back and Goody identified this as a potential 2020 fix (al a Brayshaw on the wing last year) - with Jones occupying the HFF slot as the only option left to accommodate him in the team. 

It hasn't worked out. And I agree that Goodwin holds onto experiments for too long (e.g. Fritsch in the back-line, yet I also like that he gives ideas room to grow). But Goodwin's and the fan's perception as to our arc and current level of development differ. We're not there just yet - but Simon has to juggle expectations and impatience with development. Why not send Fritsch to learn the half-back role for a year if it's not going to impact our immediate flag chances?

That is the opposite of being stubborn. It's an attempt to build flexible players and develop the team. We want wins now - but I'd rather a truck-load of wins and dominance in the future. It's only been in recent weeks where his rhetoric has switched from training wheels to putting it back on the club and players. It's insanely frustrating but echoes what Buckley previously and now Worsfold have been trying to communicate to their respective fan-bases in recent years. 

Jones will be gone next year. That gives us an extra degree of flexibility. We all know that Harmes is better-suited to a defensive midfield role and then half forward as a secondary option. We all know that TMac and Jetta are cooked, and AVB, and soon Hibberd as well. It's extremely silly to think that Goodwin doesn't recognise this as well. He's doing a decent job of easing the transition, and it's a tricky one with our serious senior leadership and games' experience vacuum.

Come next year and I think all the chips will start falling into the right places. Players in their best positions. Some other holes plugged through trading and drafting. On the topic at hand - I believe it would be absolute folly to let Viney go. We need better midfield coaching for sure but should be able to accommodate Jack, Oliver, Trac, Brayshaw and Harmes in the one midfield - and on paper, i.e what we know they are capable of - we will have assembled the best midfield in the league.

For years to come.  

 

I'm fine with the approach of giving ideas room to grow, but Fritsch was Tom McDonald-like with turn overs at half back. I think it also ironically made him softer at the contest. Sure, he would show courage and go back with the flight occasionally, but he was often used as an interceptor/spare, thus not often tackling. This has transferred to Fritsch's game in the forward half IMV and stats would bare this out. That's not necessarily Goodwin's fault, but there's a bit to be said for not stuffing around with dynamics of inexperienced players. Fritsch had just started at AFL level and played as a forward at the top of 2018, all of a sudden he was playing off half back at the back end of 2018. That doesn't give him a chance to build the fundamentals in his game.

Brayshaw should have been playing in the middle and not on the wing earlier in the year and Jack should have gone forward. A win win solution. It was rarely, if ever, tried.

Then there's Harmes not attending stoppages at all, but playing defensive roles off the back of the square. I wasn't necessarily against this idea at first, but when it was clear our midfield balance was out of whack, Harmes should have been interjected at the very least as a shake up option. As soon as he goes in there in the last quarter against Sydney, he almost single-handedly turns the game. Bad call again.

As for the Jones move, I don't have a problem with that move, but it should have been essentially the mirror move of Jack. Play both of those guys across half forward. But we persisted with Jack in the middle and then played him in a defensive role against St Kilda when we'd refused to use this sort of role player all year.

Too many poor moves.

And when I say pigeon-holed, I don't necessarily mean for the rest of their careers, but clearly Harmes was not used at all in the midfield this year.

I agree with the idea that we're still not in the sweet spot RE age/experience or have enough experience/leadership, but I'd compare Jack with Frost. People kept saying how good Frost was and that he still had some learning to do, well, he was 26, the same age as Jack, and still hadn't changed the way he played sufficiently enough. Jack still has the same persistent issues in his game and at 26, it's time to cut our losses.

Edited September 16, 20204 yr by A F

1 hour ago, A F said:

I'm fine with the approach of giving ideas room to grow, but Fritsch was Tom McDonald-like with turn overs at half back. I think it also ironically made him softer at the contest. Sure, he would show courage and go back with the flight occasionally, but he was often used as an interceptor/spare, thus not often tackling. This has transferred to Fritsch's game in the forward half IMV and stats would bare this out. That's not necessarily Goodwin's fault, but there's a bit to be said for not stuffing around with dynamics of inexperienced players. Fritsch had just started at AFL level and played as a forward at the top of 2018, all of a sudden he was playing off half back at the back end of 2018. That doesn't give him a chance to build the fundamentals in his game.

Brayshaw should have been playing in the middle and not on the wing earlier in the year and Jack should have gone forward. A win win solution. It was rarely, if ever, tried.

Then there's Harmes not attending stoppages at all, but playing defensive roles off the back of the square. I wasn't necessarily against this idea at first, but when it was clear our midfield balance was out of whack, Harmes should have been interjected at the very least as a shake up option. As soon as he goes in there in the last quarter against Sydney, he almost single-handedly turns the game. Bad call again.

As for the Jones move, I don't have a problem with that move, but it should have been essentially the mirror move of Jack. Play both of those guys across half forward. But we persisted with Jack in the middle and then played him in a defensive role against St Kilda when we'd refused to use this sort of role player all year.

Too many poor moves.

And when I say pigeon-holed, I don't necessarily mean for the rest of their careers, but clearly Harmes was not used at all in the midfield this year.

I agree with the idea that we're still not in the sweet spot RE age/experience or have enough experience/leadership, but I'd compare Jack with Frost. People kept saying how good Frost was and that he still had some learning to do, well, he was 26, the same age as Jack, and still hadn't changed the way he played sufficiently enough. Jack still has the same persistent issues in his game and at 26, it's time to cut our losses.

I agree with almost all of your points. 

44 minutes ago, Skuit said:

I agree with almost all of your points. 

Which bit do you disagree with? :)

13 minutes ago, A F said:

Which bit do you disagree with? :)

That we would be better off in the scheme of things without Jack. And even then I completely understand and mostly agree with your point of view re. the midfield. But by next year we should be good and flexible enough to fit them all in - and good clubs don't lose a player of Jack Viney's calibre and nature because of some positional issues. We need another outside mid/winger and we need better midfield coaching. But don't throw Jack out because we don't have those things. Fix those things first. 

Edited September 16, 20204 yr by Skuit

11 minutes ago, Skuit said:

That we would be better off in the scheme of things without Jack. And even then I completely understand and mostly agree with your point of view re. the midfield. But by next year we should be good and flexible enough to fit them all in - and good clubs don't lose a player of Jack Viney's calibre and nature because of some positional issues. We need another outside mid/winger and we need better midfield coaching. But don't throw Jack out because we don't have those things. Fix those things first. 

Fair enough. I don't think Jack is as good as people think and that losing him won't hinder us in the mid to long term.

1 minute ago, A F said:

Fair enough. I don't think Jack is as good as people think and that losing him won't hinder us in the mid to long term.

I'm okay with that as a point of personal difference in opinion and enjoyed the chat 

Go Dees! 

Wound be a step back for the club to lose a player with his physicality and metal strength. Attributes we need the side to build to be a top4 performer.  Would also be gutted to lose another former captain in less than ideal circumstances

That its got to this stage of the year has me very worried. Making max captain has added nothing

Edited September 17, 20204 yr by Demons1858

3 hours ago, Demons1858 said:

Wound be a step back for the club to lose a player with his physicality and metal strength. Attributes we need the side to build to be a top4 performer.  Would also be gutted to lose another former captain in less than ideal circumstances

That its got to this stage of the year has me very worried. Making max captain has added nothing

We've improved our ladder position by anywhere between 15 and a minimum of 6 places and Max has been one of our best players all year, all in just his first year of the captaincy. 

Great irony in your comment given we just beat a team that has dropped their first year captain. That is what adding nothing looks like.

Edited September 17, 20204 yr by John Demonic

9 hours ago, John Demonic said:

We've improved our ladder position by anywhere between 15 and a minimum of 6 places and Max has been one of our best players all year, all in just his first year of the captaincy. 

Great irony in your comment given we just beat a team that has dropped their first year captain. That is what adding nothing looks like.

with our teams rare run with injury this season we should be pushing top 6 if we are going anywhere with this list.  Jack was also skipper 2018 when we played finals and led from the front playing injured and got us across line. not that max has done anything wrong but has added nothing. we lost the crucial matches again this year that required leadership eg swans freo. unnecessary tinkering and gws made a mistake which many in the media have questioned. they lost to the dees so that's that. they probably win with their skipper.

Edited September 18, 20204 yr by Demons1858

11 hours ago, John Demonic said:

We've improved our ladder position by anywhere between 15 and a minimum of 6 places and Max has been one of our best players all year, all in just his first year of the captaincy. 

Great irony in your comment given we just beat a team that has dropped their first year captain. That is what adding nothing looks like.

Not sure I agree with this. I think if we're being honest he's struggled this year.

His disposal is a huge concern particularly when he burns inside 50s. More generally he has not become the player his early years promised. But if he played in a team with a repeatable method that stood up under scrutiny every week his attributes might be better utilised. 

 

Some talk going around he has signed. Potentially a long contract too, but not totally sure.

 

10 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Some talk going around he has signed. Potentially a long contract too, but not totally sure.

 

With us I assume you mean

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

Some talk going around he has signed. Potentially a long contract too, but not totally sure.

 

Operation shift Brayshaw’s foot to Freo begins then I guess

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

Some talk going around he has signed. Potentially a long contract too, but not totally sure.

 

 I could see the logical sense in losing Viney. But in terms of club culture you just cant let someone like him walk away. Its the sort of decision that ends up hurting a club in ways that aren't immediately obvious. 

I think Jack win be staying with Melbourne and if he stays then I will be happy about it. I remember last year during the trade period many people were asking Fox Footy whether Jack Viney is going to Carlton. I wonder if Carlton make some enquiries about Jack.