On 16/12/2019 at 10:59, bingers said:

Brayshaw was playing with an injury the whole season.

Yet he played every single game and had no surgery in the post-season.

Something's not right there somewhere.

  On 17/12/2019 at 00:04, Lord Nev said:

Yet he played every single game and had no surgery in the post-season.

Something's not right there somewhere.

It’s not unheard of that somebody plays an entire season at 70-80%. Especially when a team has depth issues like ours. 

  On 17/12/2019 at 03:48, Mel Bourne said:

It’s not unheard of that somebody plays an entire season at 70-80%. Especially when a team has depth issues like ours. 

It should be when dealing with an out of form player in a team with 0 chance of playing finals after about round 6.

It's incredibly poor management if it's what has happened.

  On 17/12/2019 at 03:56, Lord Nev said:

It should be when dealing with an out of form player in a team with 0 chance of playing finals after about round 6.

It's incredibly poor management if it's what has happened.

It sure is! But not beyond the realms of possibility unfortunately. 

I’m still keen to get clarity on this one, but am resigned to it remaining a mystery. It does seem crazy to name a player week after week who is hindered, but seems almost equally crazy to do the same with a player who’s form and (possibly) attitude is suffering ??‍♂️

I have a recently-retired mate who played at AFL level, and it was not unusual if he played through some fairly painful weeks/months. So much of this stuff is kept under wraps by clubs because it really doesn’t pay for that info to be out there. 
 

 

  On 17/12/2019 at 03:56, Lord Nev said:

It should be when dealing with an out of form player in a team with 0 chance of playing finals after about round 6.

It's incredibly poor management if it's what has happened.

Ill informed statements such as this drive me insane.

You have zero idea about Brayshaw's injury situation. Yet you can accuse the club of 'incredibly poor management' of a rumoured injury. I mean c'mon. 

Let's say he was carrying an injury, how could you possibly know if playing him or not was the right course of action from an injury management perspective. Or from a development perspective.

It is entirely feasible, indeed likely that if if he was carrying an injury their assessmwnt was playing  would not cause any further harm. And that playing in an unfamiliar role would help him improve as a player.

And in any case players carry injuries all the time. At the end of 2017 it came out Jones had played for much of the year wirh a neck injury. Robbie flower played his last few years with broken thumbs, requiring injections at half time. There are any number of other examples.

  On 17/12/2019 at 05:35, binman said:

Ill informed statements such as this drive me insane.

You have zero idea about Brayshaw's injury situation. Yet you can accuse the club of 'incredibly poor management' of a rumoured injury. I mean c'mon. 

Let's say he was carrying an injury, how could you possibly know if playing him or not was the right course of action from an injury management perspective. Or from a development perspective.

It is entirely feasible, indeed likely that if if he was carrying an injury their assessmwnt was playing  would not cause any further harm. And that playing in an unfamiliar role would help him improve as a player.

And in any case players carry injuries all the time. At the end of 2017 it came out Jones had played for much of the year wirh a neck injury. Robbie flower played his last few years with broken thumbs, requiring injections at half time. There are any number of other examples.

 

  On 17/12/2019 at 03:56, Lord Nev said:

It should be when dealing with an out of form player in a team with 0 chance of playing finals after about round 6.

It's incredibly poor management if it's what has happened.

 

Drives me insane when people don't read posts properly too.

 

  On 17/12/2019 at 00:04, Lord Nev said:

Yet he played every single game and had no surgery in the post-season.

Something's not right there somewhere.

He missed his family Christmas day 100*100 due to a back problem.

Misson Jan 22 update:  “Gus (Angus Brayshaw) had a back-issue pre-Christmas which has been resolved. 

He started his preseason in mid-january.  In many respects a back problem is more restrictive than some surgeries. 

Even tho he played every game, he didn't look agile in many of them - partly lack of fitness and possibly partly a lingering back issue.

Edited December 17, 20195 yr by Lucifer's Hero

  On 17/12/2019 at 05:41, Lucifer's Hero said:

He missed his family Christmas day 100*100 due to a back problem.

Misson Jan 22 update:  “Gus (Angus Brayshaw) had a back-issue pre-Christmas which has been resolved. 

He started his preseason in mid-january.  In many respects a back problem is more restrictive than some surgeries.

Yep, so no surgery as mentioned, and as mentioned if he was carrying such an injury, and combining it with poor form, it seems a baffling decision to play him every single game; especially once our season was dead and buried.

  On 17/12/2019 at 05:40, Lord Nev said:

 

 

Drives me insane when people don't read posts properly too.

 

I don't follow.

  On 17/12/2019 at 05:47, binman said:

I don't follow.

IF you read the post properly maybe you would...

  On 16/12/2019 at 04:04, Sir Why You Little said:

You and i are looking at this from different angles. I know all about application, and yes it is pivotal, but when you are continually getting no reward for that effort, it drops off even a little

2019 stunk on so many levels that i am prepared to write it off, as long as there is massive improvement next year. 
that must be the caveat

You may see things differently 

Pity in another thread you told me Viney should be dumped as captain based on 2019. 

If you're going to maintain a stance stick to it

 

Backline:
Positives:
 - May, Lever, Jetta et al in full training
 - Harmes a fit runner with versatile ball winning ability

Concerns:
- ball use, after Salem and May if Hibberd's fallen away and Jetta's 15 touches most weeks then we aren't getting much quality rebound
- Oscar
- depth. Lockhart, Hore, J Smith and maybe Rivers the next group after the initial 7 and there's not a lot proven there

Midfield:
Positives:
- Health. Especially Viney, Gus, Oliver, Gawn
- Petracca the starting mid
- Langdon is the hard runner we've needed
- Vanders? Vanders?

Concerns:
- Is the balance of Petracca/Oliver/Viney/Gus still too inside and lacking skills and defensive work
- 2nd/3rd wing options especially if Tomlinson remains injured or limited
- 2nd ruck?

Forward:
Positives:
- Fritsch
- T Mc/Weid/Petty/M Brown/Jackson all competing for tall spots
- Chandler and Pickett (and even Bedford) putting their hands up as pressure smalls

Concerns:
 - The lack of pressure from our talls and mid sized guys, none of which are dominant enough in the air not to offer some ground ball work.
- The inexperience of the crumbers
- The lack of half forward/mid/wing rotation types with skills. ANB/Jones/C Wagner does not inspire confidence

Overall
If the coaches get a game plan that works and the players execute then we've got enough in all areas to be a dangerous side with weapons.

But at this stage I still think we lack a bit on each line of the ground to be a top 4 contender. Not quite skilled enough to be a skilled based side. Not quite quick and drilled enough to play with the kind of pressure the Tigers do. And not quite big and powerful at both ends to be like the Eagles or Lions and own the air.

Still, outside of the Tigers it looks a very even competition so if we can get a few early wins and find just what our strength is we could have a very good side but at least bouncing back from last year is probably a reasonable expectation.
 

  On 17/12/2019 at 06:09, DeeSpencer said:

Concerns:
 - The lack of pressure from our talls and mid sized guys, none of which are dominant enough in the air not to offer some ground ball work.
- The inexperience of the crumbers
- The lack of half forward/mid/wing rotation types with skills. ANB/Jones/C Wagner does not inspire confidence.

 

 

Don’t forget the Milkshake. Hunt could prove useful in that area too (but I realise that’s a decent-sized “could”). No mention of Dunkley either, who seems to be tracking well. And though he’s currently moonbootin’ about the joint, have we collectively given up on Spargo? Promising first year, then obviously disappointing this season gone (though certainly not alone in that regard). But is that enough to give up on the little fella? 

Edited December 17, 20195 yr by Mel Bourne

  On 17/12/2019 at 06:06, Pennant St Dee said:

Pity in another thread you told me Viney should be dumped as captain based on 2019. 

If you're going to maintain a stance stick to it

 

Yes Exactly. Viney should not be Captain going forward. 
nothing at all to do with Brayshaw. 
 

 

  On 17/12/2019 at 06:23, Mel Bourne said:

Don’t forget the Milkshake. Hunt could prove useful in that area too (but I realise that’s a decent-sized “could”). No mention of Dunkley either, who seems to be tracking well. And though he’s currently moonbootin’ about the joint, have we collectively given up on Spargo? Promising first year, then obviously disappointing this season gone (though certainly not alone in that regard). But is that enough to give up on the little fella? 

I didn't mention Melksham but I've got him as an important forward with some versatility, but still think we'll have one of ANB/Jones/C Wagner in the side as the high half forward. Spargo  - certainly haven't given up on but now with little preseason pre christmas he's not an early season player, wait and see.

I haven't seen anything from Dunkley that really elevates him from Jordon and Sparrow as mostly unknown prospects. Can they play wing or half forward?

  On 17/12/2019 at 06:09, DeeSpencer said:

And not quite big and powerful at both ends to be like the Eagles or Lions and own the air.

Hardly think the Lions own the air though 'Dee'...

Particularly forward of centre where they rely a lot on Cameron.

  On 17/12/2019 at 06:58, rjay said:

Hardly think the Lions own the air though 'Dee'...

Particularly forward of centre where they rely a lot on Cameron.

They certainly struggle to hold marks inside 50, but are very strong down back and through the wings and half forwards. They play very down the line, contest to contest footy.

  On 17/12/2019 at 05:48, Lord Nev said:

IF you read the post properly maybe you would...

Im pretty sure i read your post correctly.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in response to Mel Bourne suggestion that it is not of unheard for a player plays out a season only at 70-80% fitness you replied (summarising):

- it should be in a season such as the one we played

- and IF that was the scenario with Gus that would be 'incredibly poor management'

  On 17/12/2019 at 07:18, binman said:

Im pretty sure i read your post correctly.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in response to Mel Bourne suggestion that it is not of unheard for a player plays out a season only at 70-80% fitness you replied (summarising):

- it should be in a season such as the one we played

- and IF that was the scenario with Gus that would be 'incredibly poor management'

What I said was:

It should be when dealing with an out of form player in a team with 0 chance of playing finals after about round 6.

It's incredibly poor management if it's what has happened.

Maybe you interpreted it differently to intended, but if you think continually playing an out of form and injured player in every game, when finals are totally out of the question, when that player has a history of concussion, when you risk that player having another interrupted preseason is good management, then we very much disagree on how the management of players should be handled.

You had a crack at me be for being "ill informed" and having "zero idea about Brayshaw's injury" situation, but I clearly said "if it's what has happened" which pretty obviously implies I don't know his injury situation and I'm talking about the handling of it in the scenario that he was indeed playing injured. Which again, would bring me to my above point where we must very much differ on what is good player management in the context of our 2019 season.

And to finish by addressing your concept of the what was happening (ironic given you know as much as I do and you had a go at me for that), I think it's safe to say Brayshaw did not improve as the year went on.

 

Yep, I thought so. I didn't misunderstand your post.

 

I dunno, playing Gus every game, despite his obvious struggles to find form and given so little was on the line, was...perhaps a little odd? 
 

But not being privy to the inner-sanctum’s methodology means one has to put their faith in the club’s decision-making, however we all know too well that our club is not infallible when it comes to decision-making (who’s club is?), so speculating that they fudged it up isn’t exactly blasphemy. 

 

Us missing Melksham for much of the season can't be underestimated. Don't forget a lot of the games we lost we either had more or just about the same amount of inside 50s. One of the biggest issues we had was a terrible disconnect between the midfield and forward line. Melksham is one of the major ingredients in making this work, his and direct pass into the forward line set us up for lots of shots on goal in 2018.

We had so many balls go into the forward 50 that bounced straight back out and we were so easy to score against on the rebound. I also think that we need to look at developing Weids in this area, he had an injury riddled 2019 but 2020 has to be a big one for him. He's got the talent, we saw it in the first final v Geelong!

I really think we have one of the largest scopes for improvement in the league but it's all potential.

  On 17/12/2019 at 06:09, DeeSpencer said:

Backline:
Positives:
 - May, Lever, Jetta et al in full training
 - Harmes a fit runner with versatile ball winning ability

Concerns:
- ball use, after Salem and May if Hibberd's fallen away and Jetta's 15 touches most weeks then we aren't getting much quality rebound
- Oscar
- depth. Lockhart, Hore, J Smith and maybe Rivers the next group after the initial 7 and there's not a lot proven there

Midfield:
Positives:
- Health. Especially Viney, Gus, Oliver, Gawn
- Petracca the starting mid
- Langdon is the hard runner we've needed
- Vanders? Vanders?

Concerns:
- Is the balance of Petracca/Oliver/Viney/Gus still too inside and lacking skills and defensive work
- 2nd/3rd wing options especially if Tomlinson remains injured or limited
- 2nd ruck?

Forward:
Positives:
- Fritsch
- T Mc/Weid/Petty/M Brown/Jackson all competing for tall spots
- Chandler and Pickett (and even Bedford) putting their hands up as pressure smalls

Concerns:
 - The lack of pressure from our talls and mid sized guys, none of which are dominant enough in the air not to offer some ground ball work.
- The inexperience of the crumbers
- The lack of half forward/mid/wing rotation types with skills. ANB/Jones/C Wagner does not inspire confidence

Overall
If the coaches get a game plan that works and the players execute then we've got enough in all areas to be a dangerous side with weapons.

But at this stage I still think we lack a bit on each line of the ground to be a top 4 contender. Not quite skilled enough to be a skilled based side. Not quite quick and drilled enough to play with the kind of pressure the Tigers do. And not quite big and powerful at both ends to be like the Eagles or Lions and own the air.

Still, outside of the Tigers it looks a very even competition so if we can get a few early wins and find just what our strength is we could have a very good side but at least bouncing back from last year is probably a reasonable expectation.
 

A very balanced and well constructed analysis Dee Spencer Great thought provoking reading Thanks!

  On 17/12/2019 at 00:04, Lord Nev said:

Yet he played every single game and had no surgery in the post-season.

Something's not right there somewhere.

Yes most likely his back.

Back surgery is extreme and usually a last resort.

  On 17/12/2019 at 05:35, binman said:

Ill informed statements such as this drive me insane.

You have zero idea about Brayshaw's injury situation. Yet you can accuse the club of 'incredibly poor management' of a rumoured injury. I mean c'mon. 

Let's say he was carrying an injury, how could you possibly know if playing him or not was the right course of action from an injury management perspective. Or from a development perspective.

It is entirely feasible, indeed likely that if if he was carrying an injury their assessmwnt was playing  would not cause any further harm. And that playing in an unfamiliar role would help him improve as a player.

And in any case players carry injuries all the time. At the end of 2017 it came out Jones had played for much of the year wirh a neck injury. Robbie flower played his last few years with broken thumbs, requiring injections at half time. There are any number of other examples.

Totally correct. The Club determined that playing with an injury would not cause further harm. (P.S. Information from a club staff member.)