Stop following me Rangey 

  On 09/06/2019 at 14:19, Matsuo Basho said:

This attempt at black humour (no pun intended) was used by another poster earlier in the thread. At least try and be original. 

In the context of the politically charged atmosphere at the time, the mock spear throwing was only ever going to inflame the situation and make it worse. It was a simulated act of aggression. Exactly what the nuffy contingent in the crowd would’ve wanted him to do. 

If you don’t understand the power of symbols and gestures, you know very little about politics and political history.

Well, adults being terrified of an imaginary spear is sort of funny if not just plain embarrassing.

But in the interest of discussion, I'll humour your attempt at defending people's right to mass bully a human being.

The power of symbols and gestures hey? Fair enough. When Goodes tried to explain how symbolic it was to be called an ape, what did the white folk do? 

I guess in the politically charged atmosphere, the indigenous man should just do what the white folk say. 

How about, in this emotionally charged topic where everyone is too wrapped up in trying to defend their right to abuse people, we just LISTEN to what indigenous people are saying. Just listen to why they are hurt and stop thinking about ourselves. It might only take 5 minutes and an open mind. But even that seems too much to ask.

  On 09/06/2019 at 13:06, DaisyDeeciple said:

Flat out wrong, indigenous Australians weren't even allowed to vote or be recognized as citizens until the 70's. Sounds a lot like Tibet or Sudan to me, his parents would have been able describe the invasion pretty well. Also massacres of indigenous communities were occurring in the 20th Century, this is not 200 years ago.

Yet for all of this terrible history, we as a country are going in the right direction, let's not bugger it up by being dishonest about the historical record. Own it, and let's get on making it a place where everyone gets a fair go.

 

Yes... and Catkin Cook did not discover Australia.!    Not even for the Europeans.

 

http://www.migrationheritage.nsw.gov.au/exhibition/objectsthroughtime-history/1600s-1700s/index.html

People are forgetting that there was no booing until a 13 year old girl called Goodes an ape.  Now I'm not sure if that was a racist comment but I have heard Carl Ditterich, Crackers Keenan & Damian Monkhorst all called apes by opposition supporters. 

The AFL security goons then dragged the 13 year old away & would not let her see her parents for a period of time.

The parents complained about her treatment in the media early on & the crowds unfairly took it out on Goodes by booing him.  The AFL made things worse by prevaricating.    That's really the start & finish of the affair.

Comments by clowns like McGuire & Newman did not help.

As far as I know there has never been any booing of other Indigenous players including outspoken or "uppity" one like Gav Wanganeen, Winmar or Michael Long.

The critics haven't presented a skerrick of actual evidence that the booing was racially motivated.

The public loves a furore about racism - it sells in the media.  No racism angle = no documentary.

 

 

 

 

  On 10/06/2019 at 02:36, Melb16 said:

Well, adults being terrified of an imaginary spear is sort of funny if not just plain embarrassing.

But in the interest of discussion, I'll humour your attempt at defending people's right to mass bully a human being.

The power of symbols and gestures hey? Fair enough. When Goodes tried to explain how symbolic it was to be called an ape, what did the white folk do? 

I guess in the politically charged atmosphere, the indigenous man should just do what the white folk say. 

How about, in this emotionally charged topic where everyone is too wrapped up in trying to defend their right to abuse people, we just LISTEN to what indigenous people are saying. Just listen to why they are hurt and stop thinking about ourselves. It might only take 5 minutes and an open mind. But even that seems too much to ask.

I’m not defending anyone’s right to bully anyone.  Racism is real and it’s reprehensible. I just don’t buy in to the blanket “Australia is a racist nation” rhetoric peddled by the Far Left for political purposes. It’s simply not true.

And yes the calling of Goodes an ape or King Kong by Eddie McGuire was disgraceful. But what’s that got to do with this amorphous group of “white folk” you keep referring to? As far as I can remember everyone was quick in their condemnation of Eddie and even Eddie himself apologised profusely for making such an idiotic gaffe. I don’t know a single person among my family or circle of friends who thought it was anything other than a shocking thing to say. Are we all included in this sinister group of “white folk”? And if so, why? I don’t consider myself to have a racist molecule in my body nor racist thought form in my mind. What gives?

Do you not see the irony in condemning racism on the one hand while tarring entire groups of people for the actions of scattered individuals on the other? 

Isn’t this what the Muslim community repeatedly - and correctly - pleads us not to do?

Really have a hard think about these questions because you’re sounding like Anthony Mundine. And that’s truly embarrassing.

Edited June 10, 20195 yr by Matsuo Basho

  On 10/06/2019 at 03:04, Cranky Franky said:

People are forgetting that there was no booing until a 13 year old girl called Goodes an ape.  Now I'm not sure if that was a racist comment but I have heard Carl Ditterich, Crackers Keenan & Damian Monkhorst all called apes by opposition supporters. 

"Ape" has never been much of an insult to a white person as it has no particular context.   I  wouldn't care if you called me that.

Calling a black person "ape" or "monkey" is another way of perpetuating the myth that black people are sub-human and inferior and is considered highly insulting and deeply hurtful.  Throwing bananas at/towards black footballers is another symptom of this attitude.  

That is my understanding of the difference.

Edited June 10, 20195 yr by demonstone
more info

  On 10/06/2019 at 03:04, Matsuo Basho said:

I’m not defending anyone’s right to bully anyone.  Racism is real and it’s reprehensible. I just don’t buy in to the blanket “Australia is a racist nation” rhetoric peddled by the Far Left for political purposes. It’s simply not true.

And yes the calling of Goodes an ape or King Kong by Eddie McGuire was disgraceful. But what’s that got to do with this amorphous group of “white folk” you keep referring to? As far as I can remember everyone was quick in their condemnation of Eddie and even Eddie himself apologised profusely for making such an idiotic gaffe. I don’t know a single person among my family or circle of friends who thought it was anything other than a shocking thing to say. Are we all included in this sinister group of “white folk”? And if so, why? I don’t consider myself to have a racist molecule in my body nor racist thought form in my mind. What gives?

Do you not see the irony in condemning racism on the one hand while tarring entire groups of people for the actions of scattered individuals on the other? 

Isn’t this what the Muslim community repeatedly - and correctly - pleads us not to do?

Really have a hard think about these questions because you’re sounding like Anthony Mundine. And that’s truly embarrassing.

I was referring to the girl calling him an ape. Changing the narrative to him ‘bullying her’ was largely based on people making up facts.

I’ve seen hundreds of people posting ‘it has nothing to do with racism’ and then listing reasons why it is specifically related to racism. They just don’t understand why. Those people are racist. They don’t know they are, they won’t take the time to understand why they are, but they are.

Are there some people who ‘hate’ Goodes and booed him that aren’t racist? Probably. But in my humble opinion, their morals aren’t something to be proud of and they are a part of the problem, whether they like it or not.

Id prefer to be a part of the solution. Mass booing an individual isn’t.

  On 10/06/2019 at 01:59, Moonshadow said:

Stop following me Rangey 

Is Basher really Range Rover using a different name?   Even though I've got him on 'ignore', posters keep quoting him and, if it really is RR, it all adds up now.  

  On 08/06/2019 at 00:27, Sargent Shultz said:

Since I started following footy I have observed; Hamilton, Oakley, Jackson, Demitriou and now Mclachlan. My view is that McLachlan is out of his depth and has the wrong vision for where the AFL should be going. His record is dismal on so many issues; oversaw the doping scandal at Essendon, introduced the current rule changes, AFWL, AFLX, stance on same sex marriage, score review system etc etc. he is lucky he overseas a monopoly, if he had real competition he would have been sacked years ago.

seems to me he is hell bent on change for the sake of change without due care to the unintended consequences. policy on the run at its finest. Case in point- the rules of the game should only be changed are careful consideration and reluctantly. To have the wholesale changes introduced this season was caviller. 

‘So it’s no surprise to me that he was clueless with the Goodes issue. Can’t believe I’m going to say this, but, I preferred Demitriou- although the Acqure debacle found him out in the real world of commerce

 

 

 

view 

What was wrong with their stance on marriage equality?

  On 10/06/2019 at 03:51, demonstone said:

Is Basher really Range Rover using a different name?   Even though I've got him on 'ignore', posters keep quoting him and, if it really is RR, it all adds up now.  

Yep.

  On 10/06/2019 at 03:04, Cranky Franky said:

People are forgetting that there was no booing until a 13 year old girl called Goodes an ape.  Now I'm not sure if that was a racist comment but I have heard Carl Ditterich, Crackers Keenan & Damian Monkhorst all called apes by opposition supporters. 

The AFL security goons then dragged the 13 year old away & would not let her see her parents for a period of time.

The parents complained about her treatment in the media early on & the crowds unfairly took it out on Goodes by booing him.  The AFL made things worse by prevaricating.    That's really the start & finish of the affair.

Comments by clowns like McGuire & Newman did not help.

As far as I know there has never been any booing of other Indigenous players including outspoken or "uppity" one like Gav Wanganeen, Winmar or Michael Long.

The critics haven't presented a skerrick of actual evidence that the booing was racially motivated.

The public loves a furore about racism - it sells in the media.  No racism angle = no documentary.

 

 

 

 

That is myth the doco apparently addresses ie the booing began after the incident began. It intensified but he was being booed for almost 12 months by then, it would seem in response to being awarded Aus of the year.

Another myth it apparently adreeses (using only archival footage to mitigate against history being rewritten) is tjat goodrs blamed the  girl. In an interview the following day he said 17 times that he didn't blame the girl, that it was not her fault.

  On 09/06/2019 at 08:53, Fork 'em said:

And the booing hurt his .... Feelings.

 

Not sure of the impact on goodies. 

But I do know the impact on me. It makes me ashamed to be Australian.

  On 10/06/2019 at 03:33, Melb16 said:

I was referring to the girl calling him an ape. Changing the narrative to him ‘bullying her’ was largely based on people making up facts.

I’ve seen hundreds of people posting ‘it has nothing to do with racism’ and then listing reasons why it is specifically related to racism. They just don’t understand why. Those people are racist. They don’t know they are, they won’t take the time to understand why they are, but they are.

Are there some people who ‘hate’ Goodes and booed him that aren’t racist? Probably. But in my humble opinion, their morals aren’t something to be proud of and they are a part of the problem, whether they like it or not.

Id prefer to be a part of the solution. Mass booing an individual isn’t.

Who are these people who made up facts? Who are these 'hundreds of people' posting online' among a population of 25 million people? 

I'm sure if you looked on certain Facebook, Twitter and bogan footy forum pages you would find a similar number of nuffies hating on Muslim people or gay people or Asian people and yes even white people! 

Why feed these trolls by emphasizing divisions and making aggressive gestures? It's dumb. And it's baffling because having heard Adam Goodes speak a number of times he seems an intelligent person and a likable person. Certainly was one of the great footballers of the past 25 years, indigenous and otherwise. But some of the decisions he made around that time were not bright and I can only surmise he either just didn''t have a good handle on public diplomacy, or he was being poorly advised by hysterical "Invasion Day" rabble rousers. Neither of those two reasons are sins in and of themselves, but they do explain at least in part, a reason why things got so out of control back then. 

The film won't touch that angle of course because it sits uncomfortably with the finger pointing narrative of having to put a spotlight on "racist whitey" at costs. Or "white folk" as you put it.

That's not being part of the solution, just as much as mass booing isn't.

The ONLY solution to race relations is to bring people together. NOT push them apart. End of story.

  On 10/06/2019 at 02:36, Melb16 said:

Well, adults being terrified of an imaginary spear is sort of funny if not just plain embarrassing.

Firstly, who said those supporters were terrified? It was a stupid thing for Goodes to do with no context of why he did it? A reason he came up with later, which I personally believe he used as an excuse so he didn’t look as much like an idiot, but that’s my belief. He could’ve done it in front of his own supporters and they would’ve loved it.

Also, what are your thoughts on another player standing in front of opposition supporters, pointing his hand like a gun at their heads and firing? After all, it’s imaginary?

  On 10/06/2019 at 03:33, Melb16 said:

Are there some people who ‘hate’ Goodes and booed him that aren’t racist? Probably. But in my humble opinion, their morals aren’t something to be proud of and they are a part of the problem, whether they like it or not.

I didn’t particularly like the way Goodes played for frees and sniped on occasion etc, I booed him on occasion if he did it in front of us, am I racist? Because this is where I took offence at the time to commentators and the bleeding hearts of society who claimed that if I ever booed Goodes again I was racist, no ifs and buts.

NO, I would’ve booed him again if he dived for a free in front of us or took a cheap shot at one of our players, not because he was Aboriginal. You can’t lump all of it together and claim that everyone who does it is automatically racist or crap morals? 

I hated the way Lloyd played for frees (great player and goal kicker), I hate the way Selwood plays for frees, actually add the whole Geelong team. I detested the way Lyndsey Thomas played. I’ve booed these players too. Am I racist? Would I do it in the street if I saw them? No, I don’t hate them as people, I hated the way they played the game. 

There were definitely people who booed Goodes because they were racist, but don’t lump everyone who booed him as racist or questionable morals.

  On 10/06/2019 at 05:18, Matsuo Basho said:

The ONLY solution to race relations is to bring people together. NOT push them apart. End of story.

You keep saying this 'Matsuo' and I agree but how do you do it?

You've not been able to answer apart from a motherhood statement...bring people together.

The Obama speech you quoted earlier didn't help in their country. If anything race relations in the US under Trump are worse than they have been for a long time and as for the indigenous people there, well they've been decimated.

At least we seem to be trying to do something.

Maybe bringing the issue into the open helps, gets the issue on the table.

Your point in the last para is true. Up to a point. And that point is when it was clear that race was an element.

It was at point that Ross Lyon, to his eternal credit, said before the swans played Freo , th a t anyone who booed from now on was a racist, pure and simple.

  On 10/06/2019 at 05:24, Males said:

It was a stupid thing for Goodes to do with no context of why he did it?

The context was that it was Indigenous Round and a team of under 16 all Indigenous players had taught the Swans players the war dance during the week.  Goodes and Lewis Jetta agreed that the first of them to kick a goal that day would perform the dance.  Goodes duly kicked the first goal and performed the dance (incorporating throwing a spear), aiming towards a nearby pocket of Carlton fans who had been booing him since the game had begun.    

  On 10/06/2019 at 05:24, Males said:

Also, what are your thoughts on another player standing in front of opposition supporters, pointing his hand like a gun at their heads and firing? After all, it’s imaginary?

It's imaginary alright.  It's also not relevant as it only exists in your imagination.

  On 10/06/2019 at 05:57, binman said:

Your point in the last para is true. Up to a point. And that point is when it was clear that race was an element.

It was at point that Ross Lyon, to his eternal credit, said before the swans played Freo , th a t anyone who booed from now on was a racist, pure and simple.

Ross Lyon is omniscient and omnipotent? Who knew!

  On 10/06/2019 at 06:05, Matsuo Basho said:

Ross Lyon is omniscient and omnipotent? Who knew!

Well, sometimes he can be a total dh.

...but at least he stood up to be counted against a lot of his own supporters.

One thing Ross never lacked as a player was courage.

He led when maybe someone from the AFL should have.

  On 10/06/2019 at 04:33, Superunknown said:

What was wrong with their stance on marriage equality?

Nothing, except I dont think its the within the AFL's  charter to get involved in social issues that dont effect the game- they should concentrate on fixing the game- there is a lot to fix.

Issue like women in sport, homophobia, racism effects the game- so they should have a stance

But marriage laws??? How does this effect AFL?

  On 10/06/2019 at 07:30, Sargent Shultz said:

Nothing, except I dont think its the within the AFL's  charter to get involved in social issues that dont effect the game- they should concentrate on fixing the game- there is a lot to fix.

Issue like women in sport, homophobia, racism effects the game- so they should have a stance

But marriage laws??? How does this effect AFL?

I think as good corporate citizens operating in the public domain they are within their rights to send a clear message on standards - it was a discrimination issue 

I get your point and where you’re coming from but I think it’s within their remit

  On 09/06/2019 at 02:58, Matsuo Basho said:

A speech is as much about what you don’t say as what you actually say. 

I remember the speech and just re-read it. It was hard hitting which is fine but not particularly conciliatory. It was certainly not a unifying, positive minded speech of the kind you’d hear say a Barack Obama make. 

He also chose to use the term “Invasion Day” on Australia Day as well which is clearly politically charged and was so obviously going to stoke more animosity in the nuff-nuffs. Unnecessary and unwise. Just like the simulated spear throwing at the crowd.

These things might’ve given some satisfaction to militant Far Leftists but they did nothing for race relations in this country. Anger and hysteria wins no friends.

As far as (let’s call it) Middle Australia was concerned, I think a lot of people saw a healthy, wealthy, well spoken young man and, although very understanding regarding the welfare of many indigenous Aussies, couldn’t cop why he wasn’t just a little more grateful to live in a country, a free and egalitarian country, which has provided him with such wonderful opportunities in life. Barely a word proffered about that.

I thought it was a poor speech. An opportunity missed.

But why is it up to indigenous Australians to be nice and play the reconcilers?  Their culture has been killed, their languages gone extinct, their land taken. Indigenous Australians have lower life expectancy and higher incarceration rates. So why is it on them to take white Australia's hand and gently lead them into the future? 

Goodes got booed for calling out the reality instead of falling into line of rubbish tokenism of events like Dreamtime at the G. 

In the eyes of the majority Adam Goodes was an 'uppity [censored]' who didn't know his place. That's why he got booed. 

  On 10/06/2019 at 09:18, deegirl said:

 

In the eyes of the majority Adam Goodes was an 'uppity [censored]' who didn't know his place. That's why he got booed. 

That is a very poor argument.  You have made an assertion without providing any evidence at all.

You may as well say "98% of those booing were racists because that's what i think".

Furthermore you haven't explained why say Michael Long - another "uppity" and outspoken player wasn't booed when he called out  racial abuse. 

  On 10/06/2019 at 05:24, Males said:

Firstly, who said those supporters were terrified? It was a stupid thing for Goodes to do with no context of why he did it? A reason he came up with later, which I personally believe he used as an excuse so he didn’t look as much like an idiot, but that’s my belief. He could’ve done it in front of his own supporters and they would’ve loved it.

Also, what are your thoughts on another player standing in front of opposition supporters, pointing his hand like a gun at their heads and firing? After all, it’s imaginary?

I didn’t particularly like the way Goodes played for frees and sniped on occasion etc, I booed him on occasion if he did it in front of us, am I racist? Because this is where I took offence at the time to commentators and the bleeding hearts of society who claimed that if I ever booed Goodes again I was racist, no ifs and buts.

NO, I would’ve booed him again if he dived for a free in front of us or took a cheap shot at one of our players, not because he was Aboriginal. You can’t lump all of it together and claim that everyone who does it is automatically racist or crap morals? 

I hated the way Lloyd played for frees (great player and goal kicker), I hate the way Selwood plays for frees, actually add the whole Geelong team. I detested the way Lyndsey Thomas played. I’ve booed these players too. Am I racist? Would I do it in the street if I saw them? No, I don’t hate them as people, I hated the way they played the game. 

There were definitely people who booed Goodes because they were racist, but don’t lump everyone who booed him as racist or questionable morals.

Next time an indigenous player wants to do a cultural dance during indigenous round, he'll be sure sure to run it by you first. Just to make sure it's acceptable. 

I would like to personally apologise that you were offended and called a racist. I'm very sorry you had to go through that and it wasn't the aim of people who were trying to support a suffering human being, to put you through such trauma.

If you solely did it when he committed an act on a football field that was in poor taste, then you are not a racist. If you continued to do it every time he went near the ball after he clearly stated he was struggling with the treatment and felt it had racial undertones, you are at the very least of questionable character.

But now that hopefully you're done making this entire thing about you and your right to boo. How about you think about someone besides yourself and what they have been subjected to and the 'offence' they have taken? Maybe then you might just be able to find the slightest hint of empathy to someone that isn't yourself.