Bartel on Brisbane's defence (and Melbourne's)

[TGR 1,367]

Heard a quote of Bartel over the weekend.  Applauded Fagan for 'teaching' Brisbane's backs to defend one-on-one as opposed to us, who have done the opposite.  We have regularly played a +1 in Lewis defensively, and played zone.  Again 6/6/6 has forced more one-on-ones in D50.

I feel sorry for our backs, when the ball just gets slingshot out of our I50, with hardly any defensive spread we leave open easy dangerous options.

I think also the pedantic back rules are going to kill Nev Jetta who relies on grappling to neutralise a contest.  By the end of the year, he will have the most frees against, and goals by extension.

No wonder we are so easy to score against.  Tom Mc must play D50 until May (+/- Lever) return and settle in.

[Deesprate 1,324]

23 minutes ago, TGR said:

Heard a quote of Bartel over the weekend.  Applauded Fagan for 'teaching' Brisbane's backs to defend one-on-one as opposed to us, who have done the opposite.  We have regularly played a +1 in Lewis defensively, and played zone.  Again 6/6/6 has forced more one-on-ones in D50.

I feel sorry for our backs, when the ball just gets slingshot out of our I50, with hardly any defensive spread we leave open easy dangerous options.

I think also the pedantic back rules are going to kill Nev Jetta who relies on grappling to neutralise a contest.  By the end of the year, he will have the most frees against, and goals by extension.

No wonder we are so easy to score against.  Tom Mc must play D50 until May (+/- Lever) return and settle in.

There are easier assignments than feeling sorry for O Mac and Frosty. Those two cause more heart burn than any others.

[TGR 1,367]

2 minutes ago, Deesprate said:

There are easier assignments than feeling sorry for O Mac and Frosty. Those two cause more heart burn than any others.

The most simple of simpletons can put OMac and Frost (who really should take the 3rd and 4th banana) as out main problem, and ignore putrid defensive spread, pressure on the opposition ball carrier, and relative ease into our D50.  I agree, I wanted a mark in D50 from them and got nil, but please look at the whole pic.

[Deesprate 1,324]

3 minutes ago, TGR said:

The most simple of simpletons can put OMac and Frost (who really should take the 3rd and 4th banana) as out main problem, and ignore putrid defensive spread, pressure on the opposition ball carrier, and relative ease into our D50.  I agree, I wanted a mark in D50 from them and got nil, but please look at the whole pic.

Have no issue with that and agree far bigger issues than two players but these two are seriously hard to feel sorry for.

[Demon Dude 425]

46 minutes ago, TGR said:

Heard a quote of Bartel over the weekend.  Applauded Fagan for 'teaching' Brisbane's backs to defend one-on-one as opposed to us, who have done the opposite.  We have regularly played a +1 in Lewis defensively, and played zone.  Again 6/6/6 has forced more one-on-ones in D50.

I feel sorry for our backs, when the ball just gets slingshot out of our I50, with hardly any defensive spread we leave open easy dangerous options.

I think also the pedantic back rules are going to kill Nev Jetta who relies on grappling to neutralise a contest.  By the end of the year, he will have the most frees against, and goals by extension.

No wonder we are so easy to score against.  Tom Mc must play D50 until May (+/- Lever) return and settle in.

well I too applaud the Lions. for getting a coach out of the Hawthorn system, instead of the Essendon one.

[DeeSpencer 26,090]

Brisbane are still pretty bad defensively. At times in the last 2 years they were a basket case.

Aggressive up the field zone defending took the league by storm - Hawthorn 3 flags, Dogs a flag - and the Eagles still intercept and peel off as much as anyone. I've got no issues that Goodwin implemented that system for us in 2016.

Yes Lewis is occasionally used as a 7th defender but so is Hodge, and even when he's not a 7th Hodge isn't sticking on a man the whole game, he's dictating to his opponent as much as anyone.

The main differences between us and Brisbane - going back to the JLT game - are:
1. They have been far more fluent with the ball and not giving it away in bad areas
2. Their midfield and forward lines are defending at a decent (but not brilliant) level
3. Harris Andrews is a gun and Josh Walker is doing a job, they don't have Froscar.

[Deemania since 56 6,723]

23 minutes ago, Deesprate said:

There are easier assignments than feeling sorry for O Mac and Frosty. Those two cause more heart burn than any others.

I still believe that Frosty is not so guilty. He is caught between gap-filling, supporting to save desperate situations down back and assisting in the progress of clearances. Some he does well; for some of these roles, he is overwhelmed. 

[beelzebub 23,383]

Just now, DeeSpencer said:

Brisbane are still pretty bad defensively. At times in the last 2 years they were a basket case.

Aggressive up the field zone defending took the league by storm - Hawthorn 3 flags, Dogs a flag - and the Eagles still intercept and peel off as much as anyone. I've got no issues that Goodwin implemented that system for us in 2016.

Yes Lewis is occasionally used as a 7th defender but so is Hodge, and even when he's not a 7th Hodge isn't sticking on a man the whole game, he's dictating to his opponent as much as anyone.

The main differences between us and Brisbane - going back to the JLT game - are:
1. They have been far more fluent with the ball and not giving it away in bad areas
2. Their midfield and forward lines are defending at a decent (but not brilliant) level
3. Harris Andrews is a gun and Josh Walker is doing a job, they don't have Froscar.

That and they play a very different structure /style of defense.

Other than that ?

[tiers 2,849]

When I see Oliver, Brayshaw, Viney, Jones et al getting possessions in the defensive goal square on a semi regular basis or , if not, then offering leads as an escape path for our backs, then we will have the basis of a stiffened and supported defence.

I see them too often foward, not enough back. Two way running means goal square to goal square if necessary, not goal square to centre square.

 

[binman 43,893]

14 minutes ago, tiers said:

When I see Oliver, Brayshaw, Viney, Jones et al getting possessions in the defensive goal square on a semi regular basis or , if not, then offering leads as an escape path for our backs, then we will have the basis of a stiffened and supported defence.

I see them too often forward, not enough back. Two way running means goal square to goal square if necessary, not goal square to centre square.

 

Exactly the point Brayshaw made. 

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

58 minutes ago, TGR said:

The most simple of simpletons can put OMac and Frost (who really should take the 3rd and 4th banana) as out main problem, and ignore putrid defensive spread, pressure on the opposition ball carrier, and relative ease into our D50.  I agree, I wanted a mark in D50 from them and got nil, but please look at the whole pic.

Many have been pointing that out for the past 4-5 years.

Clearly there are other contributing factors as to why we're so easy to score against, but Oscar and Frost bening our first and second key defenders is the main one.

That is without question. Neither are trustworthy enough as one-on-one defenders or intercept players.

First three goals of the game vs Essendon.

19:24 - First goal against Essendon, go and look what happened. WTF are Oscar and Frost doing? Did they forget that they're not both supposed to be manning Zac Smith? It's just comical stuff.

13:56 - This one is amazing. Oscar is caught in absolutely no-man's land. It's just incredible. His decision to leave his man (Bellchambers) to try and influence the contest was a complete fail given he ends up on his own in the middle of both Bellchambers and Hurley who had the kick. Wow...

This of course begins the domino effect whereby Hibberd leaves his man Tippa to press up to Bellchambers. Bellchambers then kicks to a free Tippa which in-turn results in an indecisive Wagner becoming lost and leaving Fantasia on his own when all he needed to do was stay on him. So the break-down starts with Oscar's baffling positioning on the wing and ends with Wagner's inability to assess the situation and stay with his opponent who was clearly going to be in the most dangerous position.

6:58 - Stringer kicks the goal. Frost's man in this particular play. Hibberd was poor in letting the ball out so easily in this scenario but Frost decides to waltz over to the goal square whilst Stringer stays in the play and of course the ball bobbles out to him and he goals.

Man, the sheer amount of stupidity I witnessed from Frost on Friday night was incredible. I simply can't describe every time he made a monumental error of judgement by leaving his man when to try and influence a contest when he didn't need to. Because there were too many of them!

I just cannot believe that people rate these two. It's unfathomable.

Edited April 8, 2019 by stevethemanjordan

[TGR 1,367]

35 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Brisbane are still pretty bad defensively. At times in the last 2 years they were a basket case.

Aggressive up the field zone defending took the league by storm - Hawthorn 3 flags, Dogs a flag - and the Eagles still intercept and peel off as much as anyone. I've got no issues that Goodwin implemented that system for us in 2016.

Yes Lewis is occasionally used as a 7th defender but so is Hodge, and even when he's not a 7th Hodge isn't sticking on a man the whole game, he's dictating to his opponent as much as anyone.

The main differences between us and Brisbane - going back to the JLT game - are:
1. They have been far more fluent with the ball and not giving it away in bad areas
2. Their midfield and forward lines are defending at a decent (but not brilliant) level
3. Harris Andrews is a gun and Josh Walker is doing a job, they don't have Froscar.

I like 'Froscar'.  Remember Watts and Howe and co. were the source of all our ills?

In relation to Brisbane, surely most of the footy world had us 3 years ahead in terms of development and windows.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

17 minutes ago, tiers said:

When I see Oliver, Brayshaw, Viney, Jones et al getting possessions in the defensive goal square on a semi regular basis or , if not, then offering leads as an escape path for our backs, then we will have the basis of a stiffened and supported defence.

I see them too often foward, not enough back. Two way running means goal square to goal square if necessary, not goal square to centre square.

 

In the Geelong game where Oliver had 44 possessions and 15 clearances I was amazed at the number of times he was the last man chasing the Geelong players running into open goals.

There is no issue with Oliver’s two way running. 

[TGR 1,367]

1 minute ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Many have been pointing that out for the past 4-5 years.

Clearly there are other contributing factors as to why we're so easy to score against, but Oscar and Frost bening our first and second key defenders is the main one.

That is without a doubt question. Neither are trustworthy enough as one-on-one defenders or intercept players.

First three goals of the game vs Essendon.

19:24 - First goal against Essendon, go and look what happened. WTF are Oscar and Frost doing? Did they forget that they're not both supposed to be manning Zac Smith? It's just comical stuff.

13:56 - This one is amazing. Oscar is caught in absolutely no-man's land. It's just incredible. His decision to leave his man (Bellchambers) to try and influence the contest was a complete fail given he ends up on his own in the middle of both Bellchambers and Hurley who had the kick. Wow...

This of course begins the domino effect whereby Hibberd leaves his man Tippa to press up to Bellchambers. Bellchambers then kicks to a free Tippa which in-turn results in an indecisive Wagner becoming lost and leaving Fantasia on his own when all he needed to do was stay on him. So the break-down starts with Oscar's baffling positioning on the wing and ends with Wagner's inability to assess the situation and stay with his opponent who was clearly going to be in the most dangerous position.

6:58 - Stringer kicks the goal. Frost's man in this particular play. Hibberd was poor in letting the ball out so easily in this scenario but Frost decides to waltz over to the goal square whilst Stringer stays in the play and of course the ball bobbles out to him and he goals.

Man, the sheer amount of stupidity I witnessed from Frost on Friday night was incredible. I simply can't describe every time he made a monumental error of judgement by leaving his man when to try and influence a contest when he didn't need to. Because there were too many of them!

I just cannot believe that people rate these two. It's unfathomable.

I must admit I questioned Frost coming out to confront Darcy Parish leaving him an easy pass to someone at the city end.  But Frost had the last laugh as he kicked a point.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

39 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

3. Harris Andrews is a gun and Josh Walker is doing a job, they don't have Froscar.

Agree, this is the main one. But you forgot Gardiner.

Harris Andrews, Darcy Gardiner and Josh Walker.

 

[Ante_Up 69]

2 minutes ago, TGR said:

I must admit I questioned Frost coming out to confront Darcy Parish leaving him an easy pass to someone at the city end.  But Frost had the last laugh as he kicked a point.

Which worked out really funny at the final siren 

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

7 minutes ago, TGR said:

I must admit I questioned Frost coming out to confront Darcy Parish leaving him an easy pass to someone at the city end.  But Frost had the last laugh as he kicked a point.

I think you mean when Frost left Stringer to confront the kicker who of course then hit Stringer. Stringer then hit-up Parish who missed. 

As for the 'Frost having the last laugh' comment, I can see why you think 'simpletons' are the ones who believe that Oscar and Frost are our most significant problem defensively speaking.. Your unabashed love for Frost is shining through.

Some posters just genuinely have no idea as to what's going on..

[Lucifers Hero 40,375]

A good observation by Ben Guthrie in this article Round 3 Observations  that our back 6 are all at sea. 

" ...forwards are not doing a good enough job of containing the ball inside 50 ...too many {defence} players are getting caught in no-man's land, unsure whether to "smash the ball" (press the ball carrier) or fold back and contain opposition numbers forward of the ball. To play in the manner Melbourne expects, players must have total trust in their teammates to make the right decision in whether to leave their man or not and it's clear over the first three rounds of the season that that understanding and confidence is not there at the moment."

5 of the current back 6 played our finals.  The other is Lewis.  I find it staggering that he is the difference between a cohesive backline and a group all at sea.  Hibberd and Jetta are experienced enough and knowledgeable enough of the game plan to marshall the troops in Lewis' absence.  Alas, it is not so.

I see the backs talk to each other after an opp goal.  Maybe Hibberd and Jetta need to also talk to Jones and Viney to get them to sort out the mid-field.

[TGR 1,367]

17 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

I think you mean when Frost left Stringer to confront the kicker who of course then hit Stringer. Stringer then hit-up Parish who missed. 

As for the 'Frost having the last laugh' comment, I can see why you think 'simpletons' are the ones who believe that Oscar and Frost are our most significant problem defensively speaking.. Your unabashed love for Frost is shining through.

Some posters just genuinely have no idea as to what's going on..

My issue is the whipping boy at Melbourne was probably Dunn, Howe, Watts, and now Frost.  Ignoring the merits of getting rid of those 3 (I am sure Howe would have taken a D50 mark on the weekend), Frost has what we significantly lack...and that is speed.  Frost is asked to do more than shut down a player; he is asked to take them on.

 

We as MFC supporters can choose to shoot darts at the whipping boy of the day, but my arrow has been firmly pointed at the club for getting Lewis (3 year deal) and selling the farm for Lever.  Said it since day 1.  These two decision had and will have massive implications.  I was saying it also, unlike the simpletons, when we were winning and making finals.  That is the key difference between the simpleton who looks at the scoreboard, then re-thinks and then regurgitates.

 

 

pTGR

[dee-tox 4,835]

1 hour ago, Demon Dude said:

well I too applaud the Lions. for getting a coach out of the Hawthorn system, instead of the Essendon one.

Was at Melbourne before the Hawks DD!

[DV8 2,271]

2 hours ago, TGR said:

Tom Mc must play D50 until May (+/- Lever) return and settle in.

I tend to agree with this...  especially with TMc's foot issues,  and the reduced Klms covered.   Put him back.

... and TMc could play the intercept role, for the other 2 defenders. until Lever is back.

[beelzebub 23,383]

1 hour ago, Demon Dude said:

well I too applaud the Lions. for getting a coach out of the Hawthorn system, instead of the Essendon one.

and we NEARLY had one too 

[DeeSpencer 26,090]

32 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

I think you mean when Frost left Stringer to confront the kicker who of course then hit Stringer. Stringer then hit-up Parish who missed. 

As for the 'Frost having the last laugh' comment, I can see why you think 'simpletons' are the ones who believe that Oscar and Frost are our most significant problem defensively speaking.. Your unabashed love for Frost is shining through.

Some posters just genuinely have no idea as to what's going on..

I think he means the time Frost went sprinting out 30m away from Zac Clarke to confront the kicker even though Fritsch was about 2 steps from closing him down. Clarke then missed the goal at the City end from 25 out directly in front.

If it's coaching to always leave your man then the coaches have to get the sack, but I don't think it is because I've seen Jetta keep tracking an opponent and wait for the chase down in a similar situation. 

[SwissDee 43]

When playing well last year, TMac and Hogan were interchanging off a wing (later Weid). The forward line was much more open, but also quicker, meaning that the ball didn't get out so easily. So why not put TMac to defence (he's a proven defender) and leave Weid as the lone tall up forward? 

Then, why do we have slow players on the wings? We need smart, skillful players who are quick and can defend - alla Fritch and Salem.

So now we're suddenly quicker in the forward line to keep the ball in, we're quicker in the middle with better ball usage, and we've a strengthened defence with TMac back there.

I know this is all theory and we don't really know what is going on inside the four walls, but surely they need to try something.

 

Edited April 8, 2019 by SwissDee

[DeeSpencer 26,090]

53 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

13:56 - This one is amazing. Oscar is caught in absolutely no-man's land. It's just incredible. His decision to leave his man (Bellchambers) to try and influence the contest was a complete fail given he ends up on his own in the middle of both Bellchambers and Hurley who had the kick. Wow...

I lost my mind at that one. 

It's painful enough when Frost makes a bad decision and sprints widely to a contest but when Oscar does it he waddles out at no miles an hour, drifting in to no mans land instead of manning up the 200cm opponent who he was right on. Unbelievable stuff.