Farewell Jesse Hogan

[binman 42,638]

1 hour ago, rjay said:

I don't really listen to much Garry has to say...

Roos is a different story and one of the points he made last night is why would you break up this group?

There is a real camaraderie within this group of players and Jessie is a big part of that.

A club that wanted to tinker with this would be playing with fire, it's a CS type of move, the type of thing people wrongly see as taking the tough decision when in fact it would be a dumb decision with little foresight.

 

I am going to try and stay out of this thread because reading some of the frankly ridiculous comments (we must act! he has to prove he want to stay! he needs to sign! yes he is gun, but we could trade in another gun! we don't need him! i'm not saying we SHOULD trade him, but if he wants to go home! etc etc) does my head in. The thread keeps popping up in the recent posts function and like a fool i can't help but to look. 

But its not all silly posts. This being a good example of a rational, logical one. Leaving aside the fact Jessie is incredibly unlikely to want to leave a club on the brink of a sustained period of finals success for one who is on the complete opposite trajectory (and he would have agree to a trade of course) the club has been shouting from the roof tops about building a team first, 22 brothers running out together , fully connected, group love culture.

For pete's sake it recently became public that our motto this year is one borrowed form the great Norm Smith - Esprit de corps.

Why on god's good earth would the the club risk that culture by putting any pressure on Jessie or considering trading him. I mean please. He is a loved team member who the club has nurtured and looked after during incredible personal issues. One of the brothers. Been at the club since he was 17 years old. The MFC is his his extended .Goody won't have it. And thank go for that.

What about trading Weed instead (jokes)?

Edited September 11, 2018 by binman

[Lord Neville X Flash 277]

6 minutes ago, binman said:

I am going to try and stay out of this thread because reading some of the frankly ridiculous comments (we must act! he has to prove he want to stay! he needs to sign! yes he is gun, but we could trade in another gun! we don't need him! i'm not saying we SHOULD trade him, but if he wants to go home! etc etc) does my head in. The thread keeps popping up in the recent posts function and like fool i can't help but to look. 

But its not all silly posts. This being a good example of a rationale, logical one. Leaving aside the fact Jessie is incredibly unlikely to leave a club on the brink of a sustained period of finals success for one who is on the complete opposite trajectory the club has been shouting from the roof tops about building a team first, 22 brothers running out together , fully connected, group love culture.

For pete's sake it recently became public that our motto this year is one borrowed form the great Norm Smith - Esprit de corps.

Why on god's good earth would the the club risk that culture by putting any pressure on Jessie or considering trading him. I mean please. He is a loved team member who the club has nurtured and looked after during incredible personal issues. One of the brothers. Been at the club since he was 17 years old. The MFC is his his extended .Goody won't have it. And thank go for that.

What about trading Weed instead (jokes)?

May i ask what your solution is in regards to having Weed, Hogan, Tmac, Omac, Lever and Frost in the team? 

If we try playing them all next year, and we are clearly end up being too top heavy, what do we do?

If any of these players get relegated to VFL, 10clubs will be circling (maybe not for OMAC). 

But considering the success of richmonds small lineup, and the importance of pressure. I think its unlikely that we can play 7 key position players successfully (Gawn included). If we get two season ending injuries like this year, then we will be fine. But if not we may have two very good young players in the VFL. 

[The Chazz 4,077]

Thought it was interesting listening to Roos talk about the possibility of playing Hogan at CHB, then that talking guppy, Matthew Lloyd, talked about playing Weid at CHB when Hogan returns.

This must be what it's like to have options, and quality key position players on our list.  I love it.

(I will admit, I mostly dismissed Lloyd's views, mainly because I can't stand him.)

[The Chazz 4,077]

10 minutes ago, Lord Neville X Flash said:

May i ask what your solution is in regards to having Weed, Hogan, Tmac, Omac, Lever and Frost in the team? 

If we try playing them all next year, and we are clearly end up being too top heavy, what do we do?

If any of these players get relegated to VFL, 10clubs will be circling (maybe not for OMAC). 

But considering the success of richmonds small lineup, and the importance of pressure. I think its unlikely that we can play 7 key position players successfully (Gawn included). If we get two season ending injuries like this year, then we will be fine. But if not we may have two very good young players in the VFL. 

Richmond play with 1 tall key forward because they don't have anyone else.  Why do you think they have gone out to get Tom Lynch?

[Wells 11 5,377]

4 minutes ago, Lord Neville X Flash said:

I understand the Love for Jesse and Sam. But the Fact remains that we have too many good key position players. 

Lever, Frost, OMac down back, and Tmac, Hogan, Weed up forward. 

We would love to hold onto all these players, but Tmac is the oldest at 26. (So no one will be retiring soon)

If any of these players have an extended stint in the VFL they will leave for money and opportunity. So we will lose someone, it just comes down to who and for what.

I personally would hate to lose Weed, hes the youngest and puts on the best pressure i've seen for a 200cm player. That tackle on danger was out of this world. Jesse is the most talented, he needs his mental game to go up a level however. 

Well expressed. Everyone keeps saying we cant " break up the brotherhood" but one or two of Frost and Weed would be looking elsewhere if they cant see getting a regular game. the brotherhood involves those guys too right? Its up to us to choose which ones we keep and which ones we let go. As much as we'd like to keep them all its not going to happen.

As a hypothetical to put out there. If Weed left over the summer ( just as he's emerging)  and started starring elsewhere and then Jesse left when his contract ended at the end of next year to a mammoth once in a lifetime offer, how [censored] would we all be? . Personally as a club Id rather be in front of this story than behind it. 

Or...we try to hold both and play Jesse back as some are now suggesting. But will Jesse want that? What will that do to his contract worth? And we will then we have one of the highest paid players at the club ( who may be looking for an even bigger pay cheque next contract) at CHB..with Oscar, Lever, Frost??  Somethings gotta give folks. Just saying. 

 

[pineapple dee 2,892]

In no universe do we willingly trade Hogan. When he becomes available next season, it opens up a world of dangerous situations no opposition team wants to face. A multi faceted game plan with a host of great options for us to put against any opponent is what we and the club have dreamt about for years. Hogan is a key component in our future.

[Lord Neville X Flash 277]

2 minutes ago, The Chazz said:

Richmond play with 1 tall key forward because they don't have anyone else.  Why do you think they have gone out to get Tom Lynch?

Come on mate don't be naive, yes Richmond only have 1 good key forward. But it absolutely works in their favour. Having 19 small fast players chasing and tackling in the best 22 has resulted in a golden era for the tigers. 

Furthermore, their is no guarantee that Lynch will make Richmond better, it may disrupt their game-style. 

[Lord Neville X Flash 277]

3 minutes ago, pineapple dee said:

In no universe do we willingly trade Hogan. When he becomes available next season, it opens up a world of dangerous situations no opposition team wants to face. A multi faceted game plan with a host of great options for us to put against any opponent is what we and the club have dreamt about for years. Hogan is a key component in our future.

Okay i accept that Hogan is an unbelievable talent, and you don't want to trade him. But if we don't trade him, you must consider what we do with the other key talls. Are you happy to have some of them playing VFL, and maybe trade them at the end of next year after trialling different combinations?

[layzie 33,750]

36 minutes ago, binman said:

I am going to try and stay out of this thread because reading some of the frankly ridiculous comments (we must act! he has to prove he want to stay! he needs to sign! yes he is gun, but we could trade in another gun! we don't need him! i'm not saying we SHOULD trade him, but if he wants to go home! etc etc) does my head in. The thread keeps popping up in the recent posts function and like a fool i can't help but to look. 

But its not all silly posts. This being a good example of a rational, logical one. Leaving aside the fact Jessie is incredibly unlikely to want to leave a club on the brink of a sustained period of finals success for one who is on the complete opposite trajectory (and he would have agree to a trade of course) the club has been shouting from the roof tops about building a team first, 22 brothers running out together , fully connected, group love culture.

For pete's sake it recently became public that our motto this year is one borrowed form the great Norm Smith - Esprit de corps.

Why on god's good earth would the the club risk that culture by putting any pressure on Jessie or considering trading him. I mean please. He is a loved team member who the club has nurtured and looked after during incredible personal issues. One of the brothers. Been at the club since he was 17 years old. The MFC is his his extended .Goody won't have it. And thank go for that.

What about trading Weed instead (jokes)?

I do see where you're coming from Binman. I'm certainly not saying he needs to prove he wants to stay by signing it's more just the club getting on the front foot with his management and selling the benefit of signing a new deal in the next few months. The message it would send to the members etc. It's definitely not unheard of to be carrying out negotiations 12 - 18 months out and after seeing the way this FD and list management has functioned this year I'm tipping that they are probably doing just that. You are right though in that putting pressure on the guy is not wise after everything he's been through so of course it needs to be handled delicately. 

 

[Wolfturdo 123]

As this thread has developed something has become apparent. There seem to be certain people who are so steadfast in their belief that we should keep Hogan that they are both a) attacking anyone who is suggesting we be open to a possible trade and then b) lambasting anyone who is wanting to keep him and wants to try and get him signed up earlier. It's totally hypocritical and you're just acting like pure trolls who want to start a fight. What is it you actually want? 

By the way it's great how the people who want this thread closed seek it out on a Tuesday morning when there's plenty of other good threads and go through posts here from 2 weeks ago. Too much time on your hands. 

Edited September 11, 2018 by Wolfturdo

[Lord Neville X Flash 277]

Having considered this topic a bit more. I can see our team working if Hogan and Trac lose a lot of weight, and base their game on mobility and become the two most dynamic Forward Flanks. Let Weed and Tmac play as traditional talls, and let Jesse use his talent around the ground. 

In the backline, Maybe Frost can play a dylan grimes role (tall or small lock down defender), and have lever and Oscar as traditional Key backs. Although i am sceptical, personally i think Omac may be the first to go. 

But a forward line of:

Hogan (-7Kg's)  Weideman   Trac (-7Kg's)

           Melksham   Tmac    Hannan

Could work very well. 

[The Chazz 4,077]

1 hour ago, Lord Neville X Flash said:

Come on mate don't be naive, yes Richmond only have 1 good key forward. But it absolutely works in their favour. Having 19 small fast players chasing and tackling in the best 22 has resulted in a golden era for the tigers. 

Furthermore, their is no guarantee that Lynch will make Richmond better, it may disrupt their game-style. 

Naive?  Please.

Why would a team that is having a "golden era", chase the best KPF on the market at the risk of "disrupting their game-style"?  I'll give you the non-naive answer - it's because Hardwick would be salivating at the prospect of having 2 key forwards for his small brigade to crumb off. 

[Young Blood 2,575]

9 minutes ago, Lord Neville X Flash said:

Having considered this topic a bit more. I can see our team working if Hogan and Trac lose a lot of weight, and base their game on mobility and become the two most dynamic Forward Flanks. Let Weed and Tmac play as traditional talls, and let Jesse use his talent around the ground. 

In the backline, Maybe Frost can play a dylan grimes role (tall or small lock down defender), and have lever and Oscar as traditional Key backs. Although i am sceptical, personally i think Omac may be the first to go. 

But a forward line of:

Hogan (-7Kg's)  Weideman   Trac (-7Kg's)

           Melksham   Tmac    Hannan

Could work very well. 

I agree. I watch Trac and definitely think if he dropped even a few kg's he could be so much more damaging.

I think with Weid coming on and Tmac as main forward option the most obvious thing to do would be to train Hogan as a CHF/Wing who can be dynamic in the middle part of the ground and drift forward when needed. We know he has the tank and showed in the first few games he can perform around in and around the contest further up the ground. He will probably need to be a little bit lighter again and work more on the defensive side of his game.

Would love to see Hoges work with Vanders in the off season to become more the two way running player that Vanders is.

[Red But Mostly Blue 4,547]

15 minutes ago, Lord Neville X Flash said:

Having considered this topic a bit more. I can see our team working if Hogan and Trac lose a lot of weight, and base their game on mobility and become the two most dynamic Forward Flanks. Let Weed and Tmac play as traditional talls, and let Jesse use his talent around the ground. 

In the backline, Maybe Frost can play a dylan grimes role (tall or small lock down defender), and have lever and Oscar as traditional Key backs. Although i am sceptical, personally i think Omac may be the first to go. 

But a forward line of:

Hogan (-7Kg's)  Weideman   Trac (-7Kg's)

           Melksham   Tmac    Hannan

Could work very well. 

I quite like the look of that forward line!!

Agree that the backline is probably a little trickier, Lever's re-introduction will cause some minor structural headaches, and obviously result in someone currently getting games to no longer get those games. Someone will have to go.

[Lord Neville X Flash 277]

5 minutes ago, The Chazz said:

Naive?  Please.

Why would a team that is having a "golden era", chase the best KPF on the market at the risk of "disrupting their game-style"?  I'll give you the non-naive answer - it's because Hardwick would be salivating at the prospect of having 2 key forwards for his small brigade to crumb off. 

Tigers are poised to win back to back premierships, and then challenge for a 3rd. The first 2 premierships have been off the back of frantic pressure and speed. This has been achieved by having a small line up in the forward line. Hardwick and the tigers have agreed to get one of the best tall forwards in the game, in exchange for NOTHING. Its a no brainier for them, they might lose conca to salary cap, but that it. Surely, you must recognise that there game plan has worked because of their fast chasing players. 

NOW, going back to back to back is nearly impossible, and changing tactics over that period is a good thing, as teams begin to plan for your game-style. So for the tigers, switching up their structure after 2 flags, is probably a smart move. Whether it works is yet to be seen. BUT they gave nothing up to get Lynch, rather than hardwick being desperate for another tall forward.

[Demonland 71,452]

 

[Dirts 429]

2 hours ago, pineapple dee said:

In no universe do we willingly trade Hogan. When he becomes available next season, it opens up a world of dangerous situations no opposition team wants to face. A multi faceted game plan with a host of great options for us to put against any opponent is what we and the club have dreamt about for years. Hogan is a key component in our future.

Spoke to a mate who knows a few docker people. News was he was off to docket land last year but didn’t happen. 

Word is freo are still keen and if Neale goes could offer pick 4 and then some.

His concern is Hogan’s foot injury. 

I am in two minds. Trade and get some leverage in the best draft since Judd, hodge and ball or keep and hope jh becomes the player we wished for. 

Personally weeds will be the boy, have said that for sometime. Lever back next year etc.

Been a long since but Simply, nice to be a team where we can benefit either way! 

[Lord Neville X Flash 277]

5 minutes ago, Dirts said:

Spoke to a mate who knows a few docker people. News was he was off to docket land last year but didn’t happen. 

Word is freo are still keen and if Neale goes could offer pick 4 and then some.

His concern is Hogan’s foot injury. 

I am in two minds. Trade and get some leverage in the best draft since Judd, hodge and ball or keep and hope jh becomes the player we wished for. 

Personally weeds will be the boy, have said that for sometime. Lever back next year etc.

Been a long since but Simply, nice to be a team where we can benefit either way! 

If hogan were to be traded i would prefer Brayshaw and Cerra (both top 5 picks), rather than 18year olds, as we are pushing for a flag now, so at least there development has started. 

[Redleg 40,827]

2 hours ago, Lord Neville X Flash said:

May i ask what your solution is in regards to having Weed, Hogan, Tmac, Omac, Lever and Frost in the team? 

If we try playing them all next year, and we are clearly end up being too top heavy, what do we do?

 

First there are injuries so one or two of that group could be injured.

Second it would not be impossible for that group to all play in the same team.

Lever as the sweeper, with Frost a quick key back allows some variety.

[Dirts 429]

2 minutes ago, Lord Neville X Flash said:

If hogan were to be traded i would prefer Brayshaw and Cerra (both top 5 picks), rather than 18year olds, as we are pushing for a flag now, so at least there development has started. 

Agree. Don’t want hogan gone but if he is thinking of going best we get the best we can. 

I think he will be here next year and more than happy with that. 

 

[Demons11 6,915]

6 hours ago, jackaub said:

Use pick 4 to draft one of the King brothers to replace Hogan.

Excuse my ignorance who are the King Brothers?

So we have a ready made Key forward that we are trading for unproven key forward.

Great logic isn’t it. 

The King boys are the best tall prospects in the draft. 

[The Chazz 4,077]

1 hour ago, Lord Neville X Flash said:

Tigers are poised to win back to back premierships, and then challenge for a 3rd. The first 2 premierships have been off the back of frantic pressure and speed. This has been achieved by having a small line up in the forward line. Hardwick and the tigers have agreed to get one of the best tall forwards in the game, in exchange for NOTHING. Its a no brainier for them, they might lose conca to salary cap, but that it. Surely, you must recognise that there game plan has worked because of their fast chasing players. 

NOW, going back to back to back is nearly impossible, and changing tactics over that period is a good thing, as teams begin to plan for your game-style. So for the tigers, switching up their structure after 2 flags, is probably a smart move. Whether it works is yet to be seen. BUT they gave nothing up to get Lynch, rather than hardwick being desperate for another tall forward.

Firstly, let's just wait until after the Grand Final to see if Richmond have gone back to back.

Of course I can recognise that their game plan has worked.  Results are there for all to see.  I think what Hardwick has done has implemented a game style that suited the personnel that he had at his disposal, and somehow they managed to jag a flag.  That said, adding Lynch to their line up next year will only improve their current game plan.  It will mean the "kick long to a contest" style will be made easier, as there will be two key targets going up, allowing their smaller players to crumb.  The amount of times they had Rioli and Higgins going up in a contest last Friday night is far from ideal, and something that Hardwick would know isn't sustainable.  Other than the addition of Lynch, I can't see Hardwick tweaking their game plan much at all.

Thirdly, it is costing them something - a crap load of salary cap space.  They could spend that on Gaff, Shiel, etc, but no, they are spending it on the best KPF they can get.

 

 

[binman 42,638]

3 hours ago, layzie said:

I do see where you're coming from Binman. I'm certainly not saying he needs to prove he wants to stay by signing it's more just the club getting on the front foot with his management and selling the benefit of signing a new deal in the next few months. 

 

Of course. Prudent. And i'm sure the club will start discussions once this season is done and dusted. Those discussions are likely to go on for some months.

And of course the club will be hoping to have them finalised by say mid next season to avoid the palaver that comes with a player 'waiting until the end of the season.' I'm sure Jessie will want that too.

It is worth remembering Jessie extended his last contract for that very reason. Because he loves the club and wanted to avoid fugazzi (and he is private fella and no doubt he wanted to avoid  drama).

What we know is he has expressed only recently, though his manager, that he loves the club and has no thoughts on going. We know Goody has come out and said the club loves Jessie and has no thoughts about trading him.So any pressure to sign now or be traded is pure Fugazzi.

Jessie is a once in generation player. Here is little trade secret i have picked up. You keep them. 

[binman 42,638]

1 hour ago, Dirts said:

Agree. Don’t want hogan gone but if he is thinking of going best we get the best we can. 

I think he will be here next year and more than happy with that. 

 

What is this talk about him 'thinking of going'. The only talk from Hogan has been the complete opposite as per my comment above.

You mention rumors  that 'News was he was off to docket land last year but didn’t happen'.

Why didn't it happen? because he extended his contract with dees. Pretty good indication he wants to stay with us i would have thought. 

He aint going to Freo. Why would he? Why would anyone? Why does their best player want to leave?  

This whole thread is based on premise of he is 'thinking of going'. For the sake of argument lets accept he does not want to. If you accept that then the thread collapses because he is contracted. And would have to agree to a trade.

Sure the club could 'encourage' the player to agree to a trade - Watts comes to mind - for example by saying if you don't agree to a trade you'll be playing twos but does anyone seriously think the club would say would give that sort of ultimatum to Hogan? No i didn't think so.

Fugazzi.

And i'm out. 

[Superunknown 4,212]

2 hours ago, Dirts said:

Agree. Don’t want hogan gone but if he is thinking of going best we get the best we can. 

I think he will be here next year and more than happy with that. 

 

Cerra just re-signed I think