Farewell Jesse Hogan

[old dee 24,003]

3 minutes ago, Nasher said:

If a better one was available it would only be for the same reason Hogan would be available: because they’ve asked to leave. In that case if we had convinced this hypothetical elite forward to leave their existing club and come to us, we would have the higher negotiating position and could bring them here without losing Hogan. I note we did not lose any key position defenders in our acquisition of Jake Lever.

Why lock yourself out of a good deal Nasher. We are talking sumantics on this thread anyway but I don't believe Hogan falls into that group of " not tradeable"  He is a good player but not in the top 50 league wise so all options are available.

[ding 5,126]

Hogans value is stagnant, not improving. It is very high, but should be higher based on his huge talent. 

IF, and only if, it was him who wanted to leave, of course you would trade him. I would want 2 high picks, or a very good player and a high pick, but I would still trade. If Danger is tradeable, anyone is tradeable. 

Hogan is a great player, but he has some bloody awful habits he needs to get rid of to get the best out of himself. The first is his staging/complaining.

Jesse could be much more influential in games if he stopped wasting time staging and complaining to the umps. Wayne Carey is the best example of how umpires are influenced by a players behavior. He was famous for not just being a brilliant player (and he was) but also constantly whining to the umps or being outright abusive to them when a decision didn't go his way. Hogan doesn't abuse, but he does complain all the time if he doesn't get paid frees. No umpire has ever changed their mind because a player complained. You might think this isn't relevant, but Carey is only 53rd on the all-time list of Brownlow votes, and will probably drop another 2 places this year. (Fyfe and Cotchin should both pass him) I would argue that the umps didn't look favorably on him because of the way he behaved towards them. Hogan MUST get this part of his game sorted or he will never reach his (huge) potential.

The other thing he needs to improve is his second efforts. Cant remember the game, but he was involved in one goal late in the season when he contested a mark, and then chased down the player who picked up the spillage with a great tackle, which resulted in a goal to Garlett or some other small forward (Im sure someone will remember the actual game and fill in the blanks. Jesse ended up pointing towards the goal while his teammate kicked the goal) I remember the play specifically because it was so RARE to see a second effort from Jesse. He smashed that contest, and it was brilliant to see. Shame is that it happens so infrequently. 

Clean up those 2 things and he could easily be a 70 goal a year forward. 

Until then, he is not untradeable for the right price.

 

[Melb16 493]

Are the people wanting Hogan to be traded the same people who demand loyalty from players?

Good players don't grow on trees. Especially key position players who can kick 50 goals in a season and play midfield.

Ridiculous thread. 

[beelzebub 23,390]

1 hour ago, old dee said:

What if a better one was available?

 

The better 'one' may indeed be an 'outcome' ...not just player for player. 

[old dee 24,003]

2 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

The better 'one' may indeed be an 'outcome' ...not just player for player. 

I just don't think he is so good that you would consider an offer bb.

[beelzebub 23,390]

3 minutes ago, old dee said:

I just don't think he is so good that you wouldn't consider an offer bb.

[Axis of Bob 11,906]

Who would give us a better overall option than a proven 23 year old marquee key forward?

The idea of trading him for something 'better' is moot, since that would have to be so enormous that it would croke another footy club to the point that there would be no point doing the deal. 

Plus, even if we trade him for 5, Cerra and another first round pick, we're trying to win premierships in the next few years. This is going to be Hogan's prime and the draft picks will still be developing.

People give the goals stats, but Hogan's best game for the season was probably in a loss against Richmond. Hogan plays a different style to TMac, who is lower possession and higher goal kicking. Hogan plays much better than Tom when further from goal and is a far better goal creator. As a key forward, Hogan averaged over 18 disposals and 2.4 goals a game and Tom 15.5 dpg and 2.8 goals.

We have a proper competitive advantage, and people want to trade that away?

[radar 1,865]

Forward line with TMac, Weid, Hogan and lurking  Fritsch/Hannan/Milky/Spargo - in front of our emerging midfield bears serious thinking. 

[Mr Steve 3,820]

This thread is an embarrassment to The Melbourne Football club, Jesse Hogan and Demonland. It should be shut down and removed immediately. 

[Neil Crompton 5,747]

5 minutes ago, Mr Steve said:

This thread is an embarrassment to The Melbourne Football club, Jesse Hogan and Demonland. It should be shut down and removed immediately. 

Totally agree.

But 3 more pages and we break the Jack Watts' post record.

[Nasher 33,617]

1 hour ago, old dee said:

Why lock yourself out of a good deal Nasher. We are talking sumantics on this thread anyway but I don't believe Hogan falls into that group of " not tradeable"  He is a good player but not in the top 50 league wise so all options are available.

If you trade Hogan for another forward, all you have benefited is the incremental difference between Hogan and that forward. I’d be very surprised if there was a forward out there that made the team disruption and brand damage worthwhile. It’s not semantics, it’s part of establishing whether or not there is actually a sensible scenario in which you’d trade Hogan other than if he walked out. I’m arguing that there isn’t one.

[beelzebub 23,390]

6 minutes ago, Mr Steve said:

This thread is an embarrassment to The Melbourne Football club, Jesse Hogan and Demonland. It should be shut down and removed immediately. 

Why ?? It's a realistic topic of discussion. Doesn't fit yours or other's narratives, that's fine. Many other threads to join.

Why anyone or anything is particularly off limits is beyond me. For sure some subjects might be a nonsense but this isn't one. 

There's been some interesting and frank discussion.

[beelzebub 23,390]

2 minutes ago, Nasher said:

If you trade Hogan for another forward, all you have benefited is the incremental difference between Hogan and that forward. I’d be very surprised if there was a forward out there that made the team disruption and brand damage worthwhile. It’s not semantics, it’s part of establishing whether or not there is actually a sensible scenario in which you’d trade Hogan other than if he walked out. I’m arguing that there isn’t one.

What if the trade ISN'T for a forward...but to facilitate a better outcome...even for Jesse ?

[Nasher 33,617]

1 minute ago, beelzebub said:

What if the trade ISN'T for a forward...but to facilitate a better outcome...even for Jesse ?

What better outcome? 

My assertion is that there’s no sensible scenario where you would trade out Hogan other than a walkout (in which you have no choice). If you want to refute it, you have to put up something concrete. 

[Moonshadow 17,678]

1 hour ago, Melb16 said:

Are the people wanting Hogan to be traded the same people who demand loyalty from players?

Good players don't grow on trees. Especially key position players who can kick 50 goals in a season and play midfield.

Ridiculous thread. 

Mate, we don't want Jesse traded. We are discussing the scenarios in the event that the might be traded. You know... he may one day request a trade. Or perhaps another club makes the mother of all trade offers, unlikely as it is. If you bothered to read the last couple of pages rather than just the thread title before you post you would see some pretty good discussion on this. 

Of course everyone wants to retain Jesse and see him reach his full potential. That should go without saying. 

And FYI, Hogan has not kicked 50 in a season.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

7 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

Mate, we don't want Jesse traded. We are discussing the scenarios in the event that the might be traded. You know... he may one day request a trade. Or perhaps another club makes the mother of all trade offers, unlikely as it is. If you bothered to read the last couple of pages rather than just the thread title before you post you would see some pretty good discussion on this. 

Of course everyone wants to retain Jesse and see him reach his full potential. That should go without saying. 

And FYI, Hogan has not kicked 50 in a season.

Can I start one on Oliver, then?  You know, in case he one day requests a trade?

Or do we start one on every interstate player on our list?

I'm just going by your logic above, Moonie.  

Edited August 28, 2018 by Wiseblood

[beelzebub 23,390]

11 minutes ago, Nasher said:

What better outcome? 

My assertion is that there’s no sensible scenario where you would trade out Hogan other than a walkout (in which you have no choice). If you want to refute it, you have to put up something concrete. 

Your assertion based on what exactly ? Are you privy to the Hogan household ? You a fly on the wall at the club ? Are you prescient to all and any offers yet to materialise ? 

Quite frankly your stance is an utter nonsense.

[Moonshadow 17,678]

3 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Can I start one on Oliver, then?  You know, in case he one day requests a trade?

Or do we start one on every interstate player on our list?

I'm just going by your logic above, Moonie.  

Nice hyperbole again Wise. As many have said here, including me, the untradables are Oliver and Gawn.

But if Dangerfield can be traded for go home factor, then anyone can. So knock yourself out mate. 

[Melb16 493]

10 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

Mate, we don't want Jesse traded. We are discussing the scenarios in the event that the might be traded. You know... he may one day request a trade. Or perhaps another club makes the mother of all trade offers, unlikely as it is. If you bothered to read the last couple of pages rather than just the thread title before you post you would see some pretty good discussion on this. 

Of course everyone wants to retain Jesse and see him reach his full potential. That should go without saying. 

And FYI, Hogan has not kicked 50 in a season.

Some people do want him traded, or there wouldn't be a thread this size about it. That's their prerogative. But I hope they aren't the same people that get upset with Clark, Howe, $cully etc.

We should be doing everything we can to extend his contract as he's a very important player.

I said he ''can'' kick 50 in a season. Given he averaged 2.4 in 20 games I reckon that's a fair statement to make.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

1 minute ago, Moonshadow said:

Nice hyperbole again Wise. As many have said here, including me, the untradables are Oliver and Gawn.

But if Dangerfield can be traded for go home factor, then anyone can. So knock yourself out mate. 

This is off topic, but we actually don't have many players from interstate anymore.  Billy Stretch and Dean Kent are two that come to mind outside of Hogan, but the rest of our gun players are all Victorian.  Smart recruiting I reckon.

Anyway, I don't want this to devolve into anything more than it is.  You guys want to talk about the hypothetical of Hogan going home, even though all indications point to the contrary, then go right ahead.  You can also knock yourself out on that one as well.  I'll stick by my opinion that it's a pointless conversation when there is zero indication that he wants to go back to WA and in doing so it's slightly disrespectful to the bloke and his value to our footy club.  Cheers.

[ManDee 7,320]

29 minutes ago, Mr Steve said:

This thread is an embarrassment to The Melbourne Football club, Jesse Hogan and Demonland. It should be shut down and removed immediately. 

I think you take yourself and this site a bit too seriously. Trade HOGAN is a discussion, if you don't like it you are free to say so, others can continue to comment, most of it rubbish but why close it down? This petulant demand to shut down anything one disagrees with is futile. This is a supporters site, much of that written here is without foundation and merely speculation. To think that the club feels embarrassed by some supporters online rantings is silly. I would not rule out trading any player but it would have to be to our advantage. Trading Hogan or Viney or Oliver seems outrageous but if it meant 5 flags in the next 10 years where do I sign. Lighten up Steve we are in the finals.

[Nasher 33,617]

15 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Your assertion based on what exactly ? Are you privy to the Hogan household ? You a fly on the wall at the club ? Are you prescient to all and any offers yet to materialise ? 

Quite frankly your stance is an utter nonsense.

Q1: based on history of genuine AFL quality forwards involved in trades

Q2: Bizarre question with no relevance to the conversation. I have already said, in every one of my posts, that I’m NOT talking about a walkout scenario or any other scenario where retaining him is not an option.

Q3: Nope, human being. You?

Q4: Strawman question, which doesn’t deserve an answer but I’ll give one anyway. Obviously I am not prescient to all future offers, but my imagination can’t stretch to one that I see as being both realistic and worth the trouble. Seeing as you still haven’t put one up when asked, I take that to mean you can’t either.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

2 minutes ago, ManDee said:

I think you take yourself and this site a bit too seriously. Trade HOGAN is a discussion, if you don't like it you are free to say so, others can continue to comment, most of it rubbish but why close it down? This petulant demand to shut down anything one disagrees with is futile. This is a supporters site, much of that written here is without foundation and merely speculation. To think that the club feels embarrassed by some supporters online rantings is silly. I would not rule out trading any player but it would have to be to our advantage. Trading Hogan or Viney or Oliver seems outrageous but if it meant 5 flags in the next 10 years where do I sign. Lighten up Steve we are in the finals.

I think the problem some have with this idea of trading Hogan is that they don't have a solution in place.  So Freo just offer us two picks and Cerra?  Does the club even want that deal?  And if we get that deal, do we even want high picks at this stage or do they want to trade them on?  Who is the player available that a club wants to give up so easily for those picks?

There is no solution, it's pure hypothetical that is based on nothing.  In fact, the thread was started by a shallow poster having a whinge.  It wasn't even based on the go home factor which is what others are now trying to hang their hat on.

[old dee 24,003]

7 minutes ago, ManDee said:

I think you take yourself and this site a bit too seriously. Trade HOGAN is a discussion, if you don't like it you are free to say so, others can continue to comment, most of it rubbish but why close it down? This petulant demand to shut down anything one disagrees with is futile. This is a supporters site, much of that written here is without foundation and merely speculation. To think that the club feels embarrassed by some supporters online rantings is silly. I would not rule out trading any player but it would have to be to our advantage. Trading Hogan or Viney or Oliver seems outrageous but if it meant 5 flags in the next 10 years where do I sign. Lighten up Steve we are in the finals.

The most sane comment in a long time. Thank you ManDee.

[ManDee 7,320]

2 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

I think the problem some have with this idea of trading Hogan is that they don't have a solution in place.  So Freo just offer us two picks and Cerra?  Does the club even want that deal?  And if we get that deal, do we even want high picks at this stage or do they want to trade them on?  Who is the player available that a club wants to give up so easily for those picks?

There is no solution, it's pure hypothetical that is based on nothing.  In fact, the thread was started by a shallow poster having a whinge.  It wasn't even based on the go home factor which is what others are now trying to hang their hat on.

So Wise what is the problem with talking hypotheticals? I put it to you if Freo offered young Brayshaw and this years and next years first pick for Hogan would you take it?