The general expectation , not only of Demons supporters, but the football world at large ,was for us to play finals.

If we don’t , we haven’t met expectations.

Its not that hard.

The good news is we can and should still get there. 

  On 17/08/2018 at 06:39, Sir Why You Little said:

Too right mate. We have a lot of supporters who are happy to just win a few games. 

Competing in finals is just far too stressful.

 

Absolute rubbish

  On 17/08/2018 at 11:56, Dr. Gonzo said:

I both agree and disagree with you. If we miss finals again I will be filthy, I will think it's a missed opportunity in a year of ordinary sides and the monkey will be on the back all next year until we actually get over that hurdle. The experience of making finals and getting past that mental hurdle would be invaluable otherwise we'll spend all next year with the question being asked when it can be answered until August at the earliest.

But if we don't make finals I'll also recognise that we were bloody unlucky in a lot of close games, that we do still have a team where our core players are all still very young and we have a coach willing to back the side in and play aggressive attacking footy. Importantly I'll still have faith that in the long term I think we are in good hands list wise and senior coach wise. Our assistants might need a shakeup but I think we're still on the right path to success.

Yep, reading my mind on that one. There was so much dispair after Rd 23 last year that we’d have to wait 12 months to have another shot at it. We absolutely need to get this monkey off the back it is crippling. 

The rest of what you said also resonated. We just need some more encouraging signs.

I think slowly but surely a few more folk  are beginning to seriously question the validity of too simple a style ...and one that requires skill, speed and daring when the bulk of our list lack the skills, aren't quick...and appear anxious to the point of traumatised under extreme pressure.
My spectating buddies ( both players..old and current ) couldn't believe no one wanted to own the ball in the fwd 50 in last quarter...my b-i-l ( ex Collingwood...I know...I know ) says..hey ...any of your lot likely to kick it ( at goal )....all playing  at hot-potato lol 

There's essentially two things stopping us from being serious contenders.

The entirety of our list ( too many unskilled who can't kick )

and a Draughts like game plan attempting to play Chess.

Goody needs to stop trying to bang square pegs into round holes. He needs much wiser and capable counsel/support. Neanderthal footy just ain't working.

  On 17/08/2018 at 22:42, beelzebub said:

I think slowly but surely a few more folk  are beginning to seriously question the validity of too simple a style ...and one that requires skill, speed and daring when the bulk of our list lack the skills, aren't quick...and appear anxious to the point of traumatised under extreme pressure.
My spectating buddies ( both players..old and current ) couldn't believe no one wanted to own the ball in the fwd 50 in last quarter...my b-i-l ( ex Collingwood...I know...I know ) says..hey ...any of your lot likely to kick it ( at goal )....all playing  at hot-potato lol 

There's essentially two things stopping us from being serious contenders.

The entirety of our list ( too many unskilled who can't kick )

and a Draughts like game plan attempting to play Chess.

Goody needs to stop trying to bang square pegs into round holes. He needs much wiser and capable counsel/support. Neanderthal footy just ain't working.

The thing stopping us from being serious contenders is the experience/age profile of our list. With age/experience will come composure and a better drilled cohesion in our defensive structures.

  On 17/08/2018 at 23:51, Dr. Gonzo said:

The thing stopping us from being serious contenders is the experience/age profile of our list. With age/experience will come composure and a better drilled cohesion in our defensive structures.

Sometimes, I think the age/experience profile is a bit misleading as people look at the overall list rather than the top 30 from which the starting 22 is usually selected. 

eg In the all important 25 to 30 age range we have a decent group of players with a fair amount of experience:

• Gawn
• Hibberd
• Jetta
• Garlett
• Tom Mcd
• Melksham
• Jones
• Frost
• Tyson

That is about 40% of our starting 22 (or 20% of our playing list).  And the first few are AA's and near AA's. 

True, we have a bunch of talented youngsters who are in the 22-24 age range who certainly have some growing to do and will get much better with experience.  But I am usually a bit reluctant to play the youth/experience card to explain why we aren't competitive with the top 5-6 teams.  If were not careful by the time the youngsters have enough experience the above list will be ageing and then people will focus on the lack of players at the top end. 

This post from the Contracts thread gives our age/experience profile for the list and the playing group. 

And in this article is a comparison of where we sit relative to other clubs

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/the-age-and-experience-ladder-for-2018-where-your-club-sits/news-story/ec1626ea2a37e51263bd10b9084fc31d

I think our issue relative to recent premiers isn't our youth per se it is that our top end experience/age players are no longer very good ie Vince, Jones, Lewis and don't impact games or provide the youngsters some protection. 

Edited August 18, 20186 yr by Lucifer's Hero

  On 17/08/2018 at 11:39, Dr. Gonzo said:

If Gawn kicks straight in round 1 and Tuohy misses a few weeks back, we're currently sitting 3rd and playing for 2nd spot on Sunday with everyone hailing Goodwin a genius. 2 kicks is the difference. A fine line but the media and general public aren't intelligent enough to understand the nuances.

If my aunty had some yarbles she would be my uncle, she would have made a good uncle , but not quite the same.

Close but no cigar. Similar to footy, bounce and angles.

The better you are the less chance of mistakes being made. And taking your chances is something this club does not do!

Max Gawn should have kicked truly round 1 he didn't coz he wasn't good enough.

Footy is littered with the coulda, shoulda, woulda stories

Not interested in these . No one wants to see or know about the labour pains, we just wanta see the baby.

We HAVE NOT LEARNT AT ALL FROM LAST ROUND LAST YEAR

Its called Mental difficiency and lack of skill. No more than that!

  On 18/08/2018 at 00:28, Lucifer's Hero said:

eg In the all important 25 to 30 age range we have a decent group of players with a fair amount of experience:

• Gawn
• Hibberd
• Jetta
• Garlett
• Tom Mcd
• Melksham
• Jones
• Frost
• Tyson

 

It's not the age of the list so much as the age of the potential match winners/champions.

Out of that list Gawn is probably the only one that could take the team with him.

Our other A graders to potential champions are all under 25, most on the 22 and under list.

That's the important thing for all to understand...it's not about average age it's about where players sit on the age scale.

  On 17/08/2018 at 23:51, Dr. Gonzo said:

The thing stopping us from being serious contenders is the experience/age profile of our list. With age/experience will come composure and a better drilled cohesion in our defensive structures.

Why then was one of our better players in Tmac incapable of owning the ball in the last and slotting a pretty straight forward  45-50 ( maybe 30 deg ) . He like the rest just hadn't the mettle for the moment. No composure...just.. get rid of the ball.... someone else can take responsibility.

The argument of composure and age isn't absolute. The likes of Oliver and Fritsch have more composure than Jones for eg. 

Our defence strangely wasn't the worst aspect of the day. Nobody wanted/ could kick a goal. 

It was actually quite bizarre.

  On 18/08/2018 at 00:42, rjay said:

It's not the age of the list so much as the age of the potential match winners/champions.

Out of that list Gawn is probably the only one that could take the team with him.

Our other A graders to potential champions are all under 25, most on the 22 and under list.

That's the important thing for all to understand...it's not about average age it's about where players sit on the age scale.

Not sure that you read my post and the quoted links. 

Our 25 to 29 age group is as good as any other teams' or better.  And a champion team will beat a team of champions or with one or two potential match winners, regardless of their ages. 

I think I highlighted that it is about where players sit on the age scale and not the average age.  The actual age profile of the overall list is important for the medium/longer term.  But in the near term it is the age of the playing group ie the 30-32 from which the starting 22 are chosen.  The post I quoted from the Contracts thread clearly shows that. 

 

Edited August 18, 20186 yr by Lucifer's Hero

  On 18/08/2018 at 01:02, Lucifer's Hero said:

Our 25 to 29 age group is as good as any other teams' or better. 

It's most definitely not...if you're talking quality we're way off.

Edited August 18, 20186 yr by rjay

  On 17/08/2018 at 11:39, Dr. Gonzo said:

If Gawn kicks straight in round 1 and Tuohy misses a few weeks back, we're currently sitting 3rd and playing for 2nd spot on Sunday with everyone hailing Goodwin a genius. 2 kicks is the difference. A fine line but the media and general public aren't intelligent enough to understand the nuances.

You keep bringing that up. But in rd 1 we let geelong score 80 pts in the first half. 20 shots in goal from 24 entries. We let the Swans score 7 in a row on Sunday! With 2 men down. The second game against geelong we didn't know how to ice the clock and lost the game.

That is a finals side. Pfft. Some people aren't intelligent enough to understand the type of football you need to play in finals. Nuances my rear.

  On 18/08/2018 at 01:20, rjay said:

It's most definitely not...if you're talking quality we're way off.

Such as? 

Off the top of my head Richmond, GWS, WCE maybe; Geel and Syd 26-29 are ??? but their over 30 are still good.  Leave it to you to prove your point about the 26-29 groups.

A simple response to our failures is to say we are mentally weak and this might be right.

Ricmond premiers in 2017, were 13th in 2016, from 2013-2015 made finals and didn’t win one, we’re labelled mentally weak across this period and even after losing to GWS after being up with a few minutes to go mid last year, got hammered for having no leaders!

What changed, well they got a few new assistant coaches in 2017, did mindfulness, had no injuries to The big four in Cotchin, Riewoldt, Rance & Martin, they played 98 out of 100 games in 2017, and that block of four stars were all in the perfect age bracket 25-30, their backline played together for three years.

So the Tigers improved their coaching group, had a great run with injuries to their stars and everything gelled!

The Dogs in 2016 were different, rode their luck, were allowed to throw the ball almost like a rugby team without penalty and the introduction  of the bye before the finals gave them just enough recovery time, to have a manic four week pressure roller coaster that took them to a flag. A lot of their players had the best four weeks of their career by a mile, $$$Boyd, Picken  & Johansen immediately come to mind.?Occasionally someone steals a flag, but not often. I was wrapped for the Dogs.

When I look at the Demons this year, a few things have really hurt us:

- Lever going down was a massive blow, he had settled in, was running the backline and it was starting to hold shape much better. We haven’t been able to replace his marshalling of the backline, even though Frost has done really well, doesn’t have the Lever smarts & organisational skills.

- Viney is the grunt, the leader who drags the team over the line, like against the Eagles last year and the week he cameback against Port after injury, his first quarter was incredible and led the way. It’s why he was appointed co captain, unfortunately while Jones is a good - very good player, he doesn’t have that X factor. Think Carey, Selwood, Martin, Burgoyne! Viney fit plays both matches against Cats, last week vs Swans we win!

- Against Port while we blew our chances with poor skills, umpires slaughtered us in 2nd half, it was disgraceful!

A lot of the good judges say percentage is a large indicator of where your at, so I take some hope from that viewpoint, and is also why many judges still rate the Demons are a chance.

I just want us to win at least one of the next two and at least one final and then we really have progressed. Maybe Viney comes back fit for the finals, Weideman does a Boyd and a few others have the four weeks of their lives like the Dogs!

Otherwise, I would try really hard to get Ratten as a coach and also Wellman for the backline!

Playing wise I would look for speed & skill, clear out the guys who will never make, and there’s probably 8 in this category, but think we’re not that far off it!

  On 18/08/2018 at 01:31, Lucifer's Hero said:

Such as? 

Off the top of my head Richmond, GWS, WCE maybe; Geel and Syd 26-29 are ??? but their over 30 are still good.  Leave it to you to prove your point about the 26-29 groups.

Ok, we're talking about 25 to 29 yo. Teams around our mark or higher.

Tiges, Cotchin 28, Martin 27, Rance 28, Riewoldt 29

EFC, Hurley 28, Hooker 29, Heppell 26, Zahar 28

WC, Gaff 26, McGovern 26, NikNat 28, Shuey 28, Darling 26

GWS, Davis 27, Cameron 25, Ward, 28, Scully 27

Sydney, Hana 27, Parker 25, Rampe 28 Kennedy 30 during the season...

Cats, on the way out but a couple who turned 30 recently Hawkins and Selwood. Danger 28, Duncan 27

Port have a few around 30/31 (Ryder, Gray, Boak, the Hoff) interesting looking at their list but I think they are gone if they don't make it this year...

Point proven...these teams have players streets ahead of our list in this age group.

We have been playing catch up since the disaster of the CS administration. Once the likes of Oliver, Trac and Brashaw get up around the 24/25yo 100 game mark we will be a very consistently good team and the talk of mental fragility will be put to bed.

Edit: forgot the Hawks

Smith 26, Gunston 26, Mitchell 25, McEvoy 29, Bruest 27, Stratton 29, Frawley 29

Edited August 18, 20186 yr by rjay

  On 17/08/2018 at 11:56, Dr. Gonzo said:

I both agree and disagree with you. If we miss finals again I will be filthy, I will think it's a missed opportunity in a year of ordinary sides and the monkey will be on the back all next year until we actually get over that hurdle. The experience of making finals and getting past that mental hurdle would be invaluable otherwise we'll spend all next year with the question being asked when it can't be answered until August at the earliest.

But if we don't make finals I'll also recognise that we were bloody unlucky in a lot of close games, that we do still have a team where our core players are all still very young and we have a coach willing to back the side in and play aggressive attacking footy. Importantly I'll still have faith that in the long term I think we are in good hands list wise and senior coach wise. Our assistants might need a shakeup but I think we're still on the right path to success.

Pretty much nailed it and echoed my thoughts

  On 18/08/2018 at 02:32, rjay said:

Ok, we're talking about 25 to 29 yo. Teams around our mark or higher.

Tiges, Cotchin 28, Martin 27, Rance 28, Riewoldt 29

EFC, Hurley 28, Hooker 29, Heppell 26, Zahar 28

WC, Gaff 26, McGovern 26, NikNat 28, Shuey 28, Darling 26

GWS, Davis 27, Cameron 25, Ward, 28, Scully 27

Sydney, Hana 27, Parker 25, Rampe 28 Kennedy 30 during the season...

Cats, on the way out but a couple who turned 30 recently Hawkins and Selwood. Danger 28, Duncan 27

Port have a few around 30/31 (Ryder, Gray, Boak, the Hoff) interesting looking at their list but I think they are gone if they don't make it this year...

Point proven...these teams have players streets ahead of our list in this age group.

We have been playing catch up since the disaster of the CS administration. Once the likes of Oliver, Trac and Brashaw get up around the 24/25yo 100 game mark we will be a very consistently good team and the talk of mental fragility will be put to bed.

Edit: forgot the Hawks

Smith 26, Gunston 26, Mitchell 25, McEvoy 29, Bruest 27, Stratton 29, Frawley 29

North - Cunnington Higgins Waite Goldy Thompson Tarrant

Meth Coast others Reddan Sheppard Hurn

Even lowly Brissy have Beams Hodge Zorko and Martin

In essence I totally agree with you 

  On 18/08/2018 at 01:27, jnrmac said:

You keep bringing that up. But in rd 1 we let geelong score 80 pts in the first half. 20 shots in goal from 24 entries. We let the Swans score 7 in a row on Sunday! With 2 men down. The second game against geelong we didn't know how to ice the clock and lost the game.

That is a finals side. Pfft. Some people aren't intelligent enough to understand the type of football you need to play in finals. Nuances my rear.

Wowsers, is that true? Thats terrible, training drill stuff and witches hats.

I'll be interested to see if we have a plan b or c if things go wrong .With the best ruckman and the best clearance team in the comp we should not be getting runs of 4-6 goals against us so regularly.

if we don't make finals i'd like Goodwin to go.

  On 18/08/2018 at 03:18, Biffen said:

I'll be interested to see if we have a plan b or c if things go wrong .With the best ruckman and the best clearance team in the comp we should not be getting runs of 4-6 goals against us so regularly.

if we don't make finals i'd like Goodwin to go.

As much as I have my misgivings about Goodwin...and I do...I really think the real culprits are his sup[port and mentors. it is entirely possibly that whilst Simon has some of his own weird and wonderful ideas..( and some may indeed work ,..for a time..under particular game circumstances )  the overall effect is no a cohesive one.  The gameplan ( as it's put ) simply falls to pieces under duress. Duress is the prime ingredient of finals so it distinctly concerns me that if we still somehow manage to remain in the 8 come end of h/a we are particularly ill equipped to progress much further. Whoever it was who suggested our game ideology was honed from Pyrite has nailed it I reckon.

One of the great problems in having a game plan tat relies of pushing the ball forward relentlessly and bombing  is that if you dont maintain possession you are immediately caught with your pants down as opposition has instantly an effective chain of overlaps. Happens time and time again.  To compound this because we look to protect a 'space' and not inhibit the man  then invariably as the 'other' side gets the ball past the square there is more often than not TWO...not just one players ON. Theres often one just about the half back line...and/or one in either of the pockets.  Hes there because he isnt COVERED...only 'guarded"  We seldom have the virtual goalkeeper either. A lot of opposition goals are opportunistic and get through because no one can stop them...a lot of our goals are stopped because someone DOES !!

Now either Goodwin is arrogantly thick as two short planks...which I would hope is not the case  OR  the composite of advice  and input he's getting is just RUBBISH!!  Im leaning towards the latter...but its Simon's job to interpret and implement.

Again its not really whether we make the finals or not...in so much as if we're there but for 5mins...whats the point. That is no real achievement, not in my book.

We should be relevant to September by now. If we arent...then change must happen

  On 18/08/2018 at 01:20, rjay said:

It's most definitely not...if you're talking quality we're way off.

 

  On 18/08/2018 at 02:32, rjay said:

Ok, we're talking about 25 to 29 yo. Teams around our mark or higher.

Tiges, Cotchin 28, Martin 27, Rance 28, Riewoldt 29

EFC, Hurley 28, Hooker 29, Heppell 26, Zahar 28

WC, Gaff 26, McGovern 26, NikNat 28, Shuey 28, Darling 26

GWS, Davis 27, Cameron 25, Ward, 28, Scully 27

Sydney, Hana 27, Parker 25, Rampe 28 Kennedy 30 during the season...

Cats, on the way out but a couple who turned 30 recently Hawkins and Selwood. Danger 28, Duncan 27

Port have a few around 30/31 (Ryder, Gray, Boak, the Hoff) interesting looking at their list but I think they are gone if they don't make it this year...

Point proven...these teams have players streets ahead of our list in this age group.

We have been playing catch up since the disaster of the CS administration. Once the likes of Oliver, Trac and Brashaw get up around the 24/25yo 100 game mark we will be a very consistently good team and the talk of mental fragility will be put to bed.

Edit: forgot the Hawks

Smith 26, Gunston 26, Mitchell 25, McEvoy 29, Bruest 27, Stratton 29, Frawley 29

You've moved the goal posts from our 26-29 year olds being 'way off' those of other teams, to their 25 to 30 ish players being around the mark or higher than ours. 

Anyway, I still think our 26-29 year olds:  Gawn (AA), Hibberd (AA), Jetta (AA), Melksham and Tom McD are as good as nearly all other teams of the same age group named in your post and certainly better than most.  But happy to agree to disagree.

  On 18/08/2018 at 04:07, Lucifer's Hero said:

 

You've moved the goal posts from our 26-29 year olds being 'way off' those of other teams, to their 25 to 30 ish players being around the mark or higher than ours. 

Anyway, I still think our 26-29 year olds:  Gawn (AA), Hibberd (AA), Jetta (AA), Melksham and Tom McD are as good as nearly all other teams of the same age group named in your post and certainly better than most.  But happy to agree to disagree.

Yes ...they are as good as any.

Depends a lot though doesn't it in terms of how they're instructed to play 

  On 18/08/2018 at 04:02, beelzebub said:

As much as I have my misgivings about Goodwin...and I do...I really think the real culprits are his sup[port and mentors. it is entirely possibly that whilst Simon has some of his own weird and wonderful ideas..( and some may indeed work ,..for a time..under particular game circumstances )  the overall effect is no a cohesive one.  The gameplan ( as it's put ) simply falls to pieces under duress. Duress is the prime ingredient of finals so it distinctly concerns me that if we still somehow manage to remain in the 8 come end of h/a we are particularly ill equipped to progress much further. Whoever it was who suggested our game ideology was honed from Pyrite has nailed it I reckon.

One of the great problems in having a game plan tat relies of pushing the ball forward relentlessly and bombing  is that if you dont maintain possession you are immediately caught with your pants down as opposition has instantly an effective chain of overlaps. Happens time and time again.  To compound this because we look to protect a 'space' and not inhibit the man  then invariably as the 'other' side gets the ball past the square there is more often than not TWO...not just one players ON. Theres often one just about the half back line...and/or one in either of the pockets.  Hes there because he isnt COVERED...only 'guarded"  We seldom have the virtual goalkeeper either. A lot of opposition goals are opportunistic and get through because no one can stop them...a lot of our goals are stopped because someone DOES !!

Now either Goodwin is arrogantly thick as two short planks...which I would hope is not the case  OR  the composite of advice  and input he's getting is just RUBBISH!!  Im leaning towards the latter...but its Simon's job to interpret and implement.

Again its not really whether we make the finals or not...in so much as if we're there but for 5mins...whats the point. That is no real achievement, not in my book.

We should be relevant to September by now. If we arent...then change must happen

So if we're good enough, we should be good enough to go man on man and rely on each individual to win their contest.Otherwise we are not good enough.

  On 18/08/2018 at 04:11, Biffen said:

So if we're good enough, we should be good enough to go man on man and rely on each individual to win their contest.Otherwise we are not good enough.

We should be capable and encouraged to adapt ( change mode ) . I never really see us do it. This to me must be by design. I'm sure by now , having attained AFL after growing up playing footy, that you ( players ) would have a handle on man to man.

Mind boggling.

  On 18/08/2018 at 00:28, Lucifer's Hero said:

Sometimes, I think the age/experience profile is a bit misleading as people look at the overall list rather than the top 30 from which the starting 22 is usually selected. 

eg In the all important 25 to 30 age range we have a decent group of players with a fair amount of experience:

• Gawn
• Hibberd
• Jetta
• Garlett
• Tom Mcd
• Melksham
• Jones
• Frost
• Tyson

That is about 40% of our starting 22 (or 20% of our playing list).  And the first few are AA's and near AA's. 

True, we have a bunch of talented youngsters who are in the 22-24 age range who certainly have some growing to do and will get much better with experience.  But I am usually a bit reluctant to play the youth/experience card to explain why we aren't competitive with the top 5-6 teams.  If were not careful by the time the youngsters have enough experience the above list will be ageing and then people will focus on the lack of players at the top end. 

This post from the Contracts thread gives our age/experience profile for the list and the playing group. 

And in this article is a comparison of where we sit relative to other clubs

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/the-age-and-experience-ladder-for-2018-where-your-club-sits/news-story/ec1626ea2a37e51263bd10b9084fc31d

I think our issue relative to recent premiers isn't our youth per se it is that our top end experience/age players are no longer very good ie Vince, Jones, Lewis and don't impact games or provide the youngsters some protection. 

Gawn & TMac are the only two from that last who could be "matchwinners". The majority of our influential players still young and inexperienced.