1 hour ago, ENYAW said:

I have seen flower play before,he looked great in a pathetic team. If I was to compare him to anyone probly ANB would be the best fit. 

Ok

14 hours ago, Moonshadow said:

Really?

I was at this game where Greig was taken out. One of the hardest hits I've seen on a field.

And while I agree with some that Matthews was an amazing player, he was also an appalling sniper without boundaries:

 

I am not saying Keith Greig never got clobbered. Almost everyone did in tnose days. But he never went into a pack, extracted the ball and came out. He was a brilliant wide receiver. 

Leigh Matthews' thuggery will always tarnish his brilliance - and I hated it. But his football was amazing. Kicking drop punts on both feet in an era when some players were still using the flat punt. His evasion, side step and reading of the ball in flight were breath taking. 

2 hours ago, ENYAW said:

I have seen flower play before,he looked great in a pathetic team. If I was to compare him to anyone probly ANB would be the best fit. 

POTY.

Classic.

3 hours ago, ENYAW said:

I have seen flower play before,he looked great in a pathetic team. If I was to compare him to anyone probly ANB would be the best fit. 

I assume you're talking about his brother, Tom.

For those who didn't see R Flower, he was graceful, skillful and courageous. I can't think of any player I've seen before or since who he could be compared with. Perhaps the best comparison with a player today would be Nat Fyfe. Sure, Fyfe is taller and stronger, but so is the average player today.

 

20 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Don't worry about it 'picket', especially when one considers who the selectors were:  Mick Malthouse, Dermott Brereton, David King, Mark Robinson, Jon Anderson, Jon Ralph, Glenn McFarlane, Scott Gullan and Sam Edmund.   Hardly a footy brain among them!  

In the past few years, the Hun has lost a lot of older footy journos - Sheahan, Trevor Grant (who just passed away last week), Daryl Timms, Geoff Poulter and Bruce Matthews - who had a much longer perspective of the game and its champions than most of their current crop of journos. It's a huge loss of institutional memory, and things like this suffer as a result. 

Of the 9 panellists, only Jon Anderson and Malthouse are old enough to have seen the full careers of the champions of yesteryear, like Flower and Wilson. 

12 minutes ago, Grapeviney said:

In the past few years, the Hun has lost a lot of older footy journos - Sheahan, Trevor Grant (who just passed away last week), Daryl Timms, Geoff Poulter and Bruce Matthews - who had a much longer perspective of the game and its champions than most of their current crop of journos. It's a huge loss of institutional memory, and things like this suffer as a result. 

Of the 9 panellists, only Jon Anderson and Malthouse are old enough to have seen the full careers of the champions of yesteryear, like Flower and Wilson. 

And to some extent Gary Wilson would have had the same problem being seen as Robbie Flower. He also played in teams which received minimal TV coverage. It's not like today. In those days cameras only recorded two or three games each round. If you didn't see them play live there was a good chance you didn't see them at all. (On the other hand, until South Melbourne relocated to Sydney every game was played in Melbourne or Geelong, so attendance was easier than today.) 

46 minutes ago, Grapeviney said:

In the past few years, the Hun has lost a lot of older footy journos - Sheahan, Trevor Grant (who just passed away last week), Daryl Timms, Geoff Poulter and Bruce Matthews - who had a much longer perspective of the game and its champions than most of their current crop of journos. It's a huge loss of corporate memory, and things like this suffer as a result. 

Of the 9 panellists, only Jon Anderson and Malthouse are old enough to have seen the full careers of the champions of yesteryear, like Flower and Wilson. 

quite agree gv. if they couldn't get more older experienced judges they should have just stuck with last 25 years instead of 50

9 hours ago, ENYAW said:

I have seen flower play before,he looked great in a pathetic team. If I was to compare him to anyone probly ANB would be the best fit. 

Enyaw, with the greatest respect, Comparing Robert Flower to ANB is almost sacriligious. Rob was

Ultra skillful, beautifully balanced, could kick equally well with both feet, kick the hardest of goals, totally team driven, handball equally well left or right ( just watch him on old national panasonic handball championships) could take freakish marks, turn on one cent coin, was fearless, and was more often than not BOG in state games/ He was also one of the most selfless people I have ever met.

ANB somewhat skiled bit and pieces player who will be more out than in the team this year!

If someone could post some vision to enyaw he might just become more enlightened. I have plenty of Videos/ DVD but somewhat clueless in creating links for this stuff on Demonland!

PF

Here's my best 25.  It's bloody hard to do and I have placed a premium on versatility and big game performances:

1. Carey

2. Matthews

3. Lockett

4. Ablett Sr

5. S Madden

6. Ablett Jr

7. Voss

8. Judd

9. Riccuitto

10.Dunstall

11. Bartlett

12. Hird

13. Doull

14. Hart

15. G. Williams

16. Hudson

17. Flower

18. Blight

19. Scarlett

20. Stewart

21. G. Jakovich

22. Jesaulenko

23. T. Daniher

24. G. Wilson

25. Roos

Unlucky: Buckley, Silvagni, Glendinning, Brereton and Wayne Johnston.  Could easily substitute these 5 for the last 5 on my list. Apart from the 2 Fitzroy boys, Flower, Ablett Sr and Lockett all of them are premiership players. Many of Flower's very best games came in the State games.   What a player he was!! Blight, Jezza, Daniher and Roos all wonderfully versatile and that's what made all of them so valuable.

10 hours ago, ENYAW said:

I have seen flower play before,he looked great in a pathetic team. If I was to compare him to anyone probly ANB would be the best fit. 

Enyaw give me a break. I don't believe you ever saw him play live or saw much of him on tape for that matter. I saw little of him live but I look at the tapes and I see the equivalent of George Best or Eric Cantona, subliminal physical artistry that you could not teach anyone, ballet dancers with footy boots on. 

I see Leigh Matthews and I see a great player and a comparison with whoever has been the biggest thug in the NRL. Matthews was devastatingly good and bad for the game, a talented thug but Robbie was artistry in motion and optitimised what AFL aspires to be in the modern era. 

Flower was a champion and would have been in any team. When he got a chance at finals he played at the level you expect from a great player in a good team.

I remember watching him against Essendon at Waverley at the first bounce Sheedy's thugs hit virtually every Melbourne player except Flower who they realised wouldn't have reacted badly as he was so used to it. He kicked one of the longest goals I've seen from the half forward flank.

Matthews was the best player I've seen mean tough in the typical Hawthorn mould he even picked on defenceless goal,posts

 

Flower doesn't even get a mention in any of the voters individual top 25's, or their unlucky to miss out picks and Robbo put about 10 of them! 

Funniest bit was Malthouse said his one that was unlucky was James Clement! Hahahahahahahahahahaha

1 hour ago, Earl Hood said:

I see Leigh Matthews and I see a great player and a comparison with whoever has been the biggest thug in the NRL. Matthews was devastatingly good and bad for the game...

Patent nonsense.

Matthews wasn't the only one to perform brutal acts in the 70's and 80's.

To suggest the game is poorer for his presence is ridiculous.

An incredible player and I'm privileged to have seen some of his career. 

I will start by saying I missed most of the 70s as a spectator so missing quiet a few legends

1. Carey

2. Ablett jnr

3.Lockett

4. Flower

5. Ablett Snr

6. Matthews

7.Maurice Rioli

8. Voss

9. Hawkins

10. Judd

11. R. Harvey

12. Mcleod

13. Doull

14. Bartlett

15. Diesel

16. Hird

17. D.Kemp

18. Dermie

19. Goodes

20. Ruicutto

21. T Watson 

22. S Mitchell 

23. Glendining 

24. Dunstall

25. Southby

 

A lot more difficult than I thought could have put another 10 in but who do you take out 

Top 25 is difficult but top 10 is not so bad

Matthews   Could play a bit was an angry man but got hit a bit too

Carey played in an era where you could get one on one wouldn't be as effective now but still best at his craft

Ablett jr better than dad not as spectacular but effective for a longer time

Hudson can't believe people ignore him kicked 150 goals in a season in the game where he did his knee against us he looked like kicking 20

Ablett Snr would have been the best if he hadn't wasted so many years

Flower  incomparable wingman imagine how much of the ball he would have got as a receiver in a good team like Isaac Smith but with the ability to get his own ball as well also a better mark

Judd as Ablett jr showed his class in a weak team as well as being a star in a good team

Lockett. Maybe playing in Sydney made him look better but still was great as a Stkilda player

Goodes as a pure player forgetting the last year or two where he let things get to him

Franklin as a Hawthorn player mainly

Melbourne players that could have been in top 25

Schwarz  if not for injuries

Stynes redefined ruck work but not as spectacular as some also played injured too much

Davey if not for that hammy at Etihad

White if they hadn't changed the rules

22 hours ago, ProDee said:

Patent nonsense.

Matthews wasn't the only one to perform brutal acts in the 70's and 80's.

To suggest the game is poorer for his presence is ridiculous.

An incredible player and I'm privileged to have seen some of his career. 

Fair enough I should have said something like "he left a mixed legacy" perhaps. And by the way it is not patent nonsense, it is just my opinion but thanks for your usual considered and measured response to something you disagree with.

If you saw his career you would have seen the 3 demons king hit behind the play over the journey and the Bruns incident where he was deregistered and criminal charges brought against him. I think he is the only VFL player to face that sanction. A great player but a particularly nasty thug indeed. I don't feel all that previleged to have seen some of his career too but I am a biased Demon I admit. 

23 hours ago, Chris said:

Flower doesn't even get a mention in any of the voters individual top 25's, or their unlucky to miss out picks and Robbo put about 10 of them! 

Funniest bit was Malthouse said his one that was unlucky was James Clement! Hahahahahahahahahahaha

Nar, Funnier was that Doug Hawkins in Jack Dyer speak " A good average footballer" being placed at about 15 by Malthouse! LOL

12 hours ago, deesrule said:

Top 25 is difficult but top 10 is not so bad

Matthews   Could play a bit was an angry man but got hit a bit too

Carey played in an era where you could get one on one wouldn't be as effective now but still best at his craft

Ablett jr better than dad not as spectacular but effective for a longer time

Hudson can't believe people ignore him kicked 150 goals in a season in the game where he did his knee against us he looked like kicking 20

Ablett Snr would have been the best if he hadn't wasted so many years

Flower  incomparable wingman imagine how much of the ball he would have got as a receiver in a good team like Isaac Smith but with the ability to get his own ball as well also a better mark

Judd as Ablett jr showed his class in a weak team as well as being a star in a good team

Lockett. Maybe playing in Sydney made him look better but still was great as a Stkilda player

Goodes as a pure player forgetting the last year or two where he let things get to him

Franklin as a Hawthorn player mainly

Melbourne players that could have been in top 25

Schwarz  if not for injuries

Stynes redefined ruck work but not as spectacular as some also played injured too much

Davey if not for that hammy at Etihad

White if they hadn't changed the rules

I honestly think Goodes is the most overated of the lot! A great team made him!

9 minutes ago, picket fence said:

I honestly think Goodes is the most overated of the lot! A great team made him!

Gee Pickett, Goodes ticked a few boxes. Two Brownlows, 2 premierships, played as a forward, ruck rover, ruckman, usually performed when it counted. Played 372 games, kicked over 400 goals, 4 AA's. Other than that he struggled. 

9 hours ago, Earl Hood said:

Gee Pickett, Goodes ticked a few boxes. Two Brownlows, 2 premierships, played as a forward, ruck rover, ruckman, usually performed when it counted. Played 372 games, kicked over 400 goals, 4 AA's. Other than that he struggled. 

This is my deadpan/sheepish  look!! 

10 hours ago, Earl Hood said:

Gee Pickett, Goodes ticked a few boxes. Two Brownlows, 2 premierships, played as a forward, ruck rover, ruckman, usually performed when it counted. Played 372 games, kicked over 400 goals, 4 AA's. Other than that he struggled. 

Great post!

10 hours ago, Earl Hood said:

Fair enough I should have said something like "he left a mixed legacy" perhaps. And by the way it is not patent nonsense, it is just my opinion but thanks for your usual considered and measured response to something you disagree with.

If you saw his career you would have seen the 3 demons king hit behind the play over the journey and the Bruns incident where he was deregistered and criminal charges brought against him. I think he is the only VFL player to face that sanction. A great player but a particularly nasty thug indeed. I don't feel all that previleged to have seen some of his career too but I am a biased Demon I admit. 

Agreed Earl. Matthews could play the game but his record and legacy are that of a thug

2 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Agreed Earl. Matthews could play the game but his record and legacy are that of a thug

In those days VFL was a bit like world championship wrestling good guys and bad guys and some that were both Mathews was constantly hit because he was a great player but unlike Flower he retaliated and sometimes retaliated first. We had our share big Carl was no angel and our own Rod Grinter

Most of the absolute legends of the game had a thug side  EJWhitten classic bit of footage available somewhere where he pretends to enquire about the health of a victim and then when the umpire turns away buries his head in the mud

RDB  hit a few in his time 

Jack Dyer say no more

Lockett

Flower and Skilton are exceptions

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

12 hours ago, Earl Hood said:

Fair enough I should have said something like "he left a mixed legacy" perhaps. And by the way it is not patent nonsense, it is just my opinion but thanks for your usual considered and measured response to something you disagree with.

If you saw his career you would have seen the 3 demons king hit behind the play over the journey and the Bruns incident where he was deregistered and criminal charges brought against him. I think he is the only VFL player to face that sanction. A great player but a particularly nasty thug indeed. I don't feel all that previleged to have seen some of his career too but I am a biased Demon I admit. 

He may well be the only VFL player to have faced that scrutiny but many more players were more thuggish than Matthews. His prosecution was media motivated and while what he did to Bruns was unacceptable, he was "unlucky" to be made the scapegoat for on-field, off-the-ball violence. Many players from that same era are lucky not to have longer "criminal records" for essentially similar behaviour. 

In my mind, Matthews does not have a mixed legacy because of this or his other violent acts. He just played the game hard like many others but (in my opinion) better than anyone else in the last 50 years.

4 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

He may well be the only VFL player to have faced that scrutiny but many more players were more thuggish than Matthews. His prosecution was media motivated and while what he did to Bruns was unacceptable, he was "unlucky" to be made the scapegoat for on-field, off-the-ball violence. Many players from that same era are lucky not to have longer "criminal records" for essentially similar behaviour. 

In my mind, Matthews does not have a mixed legacy because of this or his other violent acts. He just played the game hard like many others but (in my opinion) better than anyone else in the last 50 years.

nah, he was a thug, plain and simple. sure, he wasn't the only thug in his era, but that doesn't mean he wasn't any less of a thug

there is a difference between a thug and a 'hard' player