Who are the Dees chasing for 2017 and at what cost?

[John Demonic 5,736]

12 minutes ago, BLWNBA said:

You lost me when you listed Mitchell and Hoge as intelligent. Thank you for the laugh. 

Hodge like Judd, is an insightful commentator on sunday footy and Mitchell is well spoken and reads the play better than everyone, just because they're thugs doesn't make them unintelligent. Hawthorn have won 3 premierships on the back of their intelligent performances that came from reading the play in a sweeping role and midfield clearance role.

Vineys performance this week and last reiterates my point, he needs more years to develop his understanding of the game so he has the class to match someone like Dangerfield or even Cripps. Until then we should look at drafting an elite player with a good understanding of the game that has mature leadership attributes that can help us quell the damage from opposition momentum. Bernie Vince is another example of a player who has been playing dumb lately and not providing adequate on field leadership.

Edited August 28, 2016 by johndemons

[mo64 5,853]

2 hours ago, A F said:

Mahoney should keep the job. He's seemingly very good at it. 

RE: Goodwin wanting to bring in assistants, I'd prefer we didn't bring in people who haven't won the ultimate thing. Roos' assistants have. And clearly Stafford is another one who has been brilliant.

Funny. Clarkson brought in the likes of Bolton, Beveridge, Yze and Bruce, none of whom had won the ultimate thing.

I'm not sure how anyone can assess the capabilities of assistant coaches.

[Adam The God 30,110]

11 minutes ago, mo64 said:

Funny. Clarkson brought in the likes of Bolton, Beveridge, Yze and Bruce, none of whom had won the ultimate thing.

I'm not sure how anyone can assess the capabilities of assistant coaches.

Interestingly, Bolton came in with a teaching background. Luke was a coach at St Bedes, winning multiple flags. Yze and Bruce were simply former players. So not sure they're the greatest examples. 

[mo64 5,853]

Just now, A F said:

Interestingly, Bolton came in with a teaching background. Luke was a coach at St Bedes, winning multiple flags. Yze and Bruce were simply former players. So not sure they're the greatest examples. 

I was responding to your quote " I'd prefer we didn't bring in people who haven't won the ultimate thing." The capabilities of asst. coaches can't be measured by premiership success.

 

 

[BLWNBA 926]

johndemons, I'm not sure I understand your post at all. On your initial post you talk about "intelligent" people/leaders. Which infers academia/intellect. Which, is what I was scoffing at you when you described Hodge and Mitchell. 

 

Now it it appears you're talking about 'football' intelligence in your reply. Can you clarify? Because there is a huge difference between academia and footballing intelligence. I'd actually suggest that having pure intelligence (in regards to 'academia'), has no bearing on your ability to be a leader on the football field. I can suggest a few players who you'd class as intelligent without having an ability to lead on the football field, ergo, you could make that argument for both sides. 

[John Demonic 5,736]

1 hour ago, BLWNBA said:

johndemons, I'm not sure I understand your post at all. On your initial post you talk about "intelligent" people/leaders. Which infers academia/intellect. Which, is what I was scoffing at you when you described Hodge and Mitchell. 

Now it it appears you're talking about 'football' intelligence in your reply. Can you clarify? Because there is a huge difference between academia and footballing intelligence. I'd actually suggest that having pure intelligence (in regards to 'academia'), has no bearing on your ability to be a leader on the football field. I can suggest a few players who you'd class as intelligent without having an ability to lead on the football field, ergo, you could make that argument for both sides. 

My initial point was suggesting that if we want to make that extra push up the ladder and compete for a premiership, then we need another mature and intelligent head in the team who can help lead the squad when it needs a strong voice on the field when momentum is against us.  You're looking for a player that knows exactly what needs to be done, that has the same eyes as the coaches.

If we're the youngest club then it goes without saying that we've got a lot of young and immature kids. I said the general trait with the elite players and leaders is that they're pretty well spoken and their thought process is clear. Fyfe, Dangerfield, Ablett - They're all intelligent and mature people. All I'm saying is if we're trying to bring in an elite player then make sure he's an intelligent person off the field as well as on the field. Sam Mitchell is not dumb, he's a fast thinking player that assesses multiple options instantaneously and generally chooses the right move. And when you hear him speak off the field, he explains quite clearly how the game played out. I also stressed that that there are exceptions, but i personally think that the absolute elite players are also very intelligent people who assess and make the right decisions at the crucial moments and move to the right place with or without the ball. Chris Judd is another example.

It's common knowledge that Viney is going to be captain very soon and I just made the case perhaps too bluntly, that he's too young and has not developed a great understanding of the game yet. He's one of those players who while answering questions on point, still repeats a lot of cliche's in interviews and seems far away from being the kind of elite player who will consistently perform at an elite level. 

If Roosy said we're missing an A Grader, then I think what he meant was our very own Judd in the making, or Dangerfield in the making. The kind of player the entire club and the outside media gravitates towards. A marquee player who is the voice and soul of the club on and off the field. Maybe Max Gawn can develop into that player or Petracca down the line. 

TL;DR Recruit an elite player who you can see being a coach or the kind of thinker that wouldn't look out of place in the commentary box doing special comments, if you want a player/leader that will help challenge for a premiership. Hodge and Riewoldt both provide insightful analysis into the game while commentating, so recruit a player with as in depth an understanding as they have or a player you see with that potential in them because that's the kind of leader you want at the clutch.

Hogan for Fyfe anyone?

Edited August 28, 2016 by johndemons

[rjay 24,851]

18 minutes ago, johndemons said:

My initial point was suggesting that if we want to make that extra push up the ladder and compete for a premiership, then we need another mature and intelligent head in the team who can help lead the squad when it needs a strong voice on the field when momentum is against us. If we're the youngest club then it goes without saying that we've got a lot of young and immature kids. I said the general trait with the elite players and leaders is that they're pretty well spoken and their thought process is clear. Fyfe, Dangerfield, Ablett - They're all intelligent and mature people. All I'm saying is if we're trying to bring in an elite player then make sure he's an intelligent person off the field as well as on the field. Sam Mitchell is not dumb, he's a fast thinking player that assesses multiple options instantaneously and generally chooses the right move. And when you hear him speak off the field, he explains quite clearly how the game played out. I also stressed that that there are exceptions, but i personally think that the absolute elite players are also very intelligent people who assess and make the right decisions at the crucial moments and move to the right place with or without the ball. Chris Judd is another example.

It's common knowledge that Viney is going to be captain very soon and I just made the case perhaps too bluntly, that he's too young and has not developed a great understanding of the game yet. He's one of those players who while answering questions on point, still repeats a lot of cliche's in interviews and seems far away from being the kind of elite player who will consistently perform at an elite level. 

If Roosy said we're missing an A Grader, then I think what he meant was our very own Judd in the making, or Dangerfield in the making. The kind of player the entire club and the outside media gravitates towards. A marquee player who is the voice and soul of the club on and off the field. Maybe Max Gawn can develop into that player or Petracca down the line. 

Ie Recruit an elite player who you can see being a coach in the future.

Sorry 'john' but you are just not arguing this right...

For a start I can't see any of those mentioned being a coach in the future. Ablett is the only skipper & by default, both Fyfe & Danger have been overlooked as skippers. So forget the waffle, an A grade player can be a total dumb ar...off the field but be an absolute champion of the game. The odd hall of famer standsas testament to that.

If you are arguing the merits of Viney as a skipper then I think you should concern yourself more with what he does on the ground & in the group. My outside observation is that it's way to early for him to be leading the club & if we had better senior players he wouldn't have been part of the leadership group this year.

Jack needs to play more for the team and for now he doesn't, he's still an immature footballer. See ball, get ball has it's place but it's only part of the story.

Inside observation is that Jack is fully focussed on his footy, very one dimensional. I don't think this makes for a good leader.

[John Demonic 5,736]

15 minutes ago, rjay said:

So forget the waffle, an A grade player can be a total dumb ar...off the field but be an absolute champion of the game. The odd hall of famer standsas testament to that.

I've never said A graders are all intelligent.  i said our need is both an elite A Grader AND an elite leader on and off the field, if we want to challenge for a premiership. So we should be looking to acquire a player with the intelligent attributes that make him virtually an on-field coach. If Hodge was available 5 years ago, he would have been the kind of player who was worth throwing ridiculous amounts of money at. So too Judd, Ablett, Fyfe. They're unique players in that they combine both ability and an in-depth understanding of how the game is to be played by themselves and their teammates, and so they can direct.

If they're too hard to find, fine. But we certainly need more mature and intelligent leaders on the field who contribute meaningfully on game-day.

Edited August 28, 2016 by johndemons

[Ted Lasso 19,269]

The club is keen for Goodwin to have an experienced assistant to help out Goodwin, there was hope that Roosy would stick around in some capacity and help fill that role but now that's not an option we're looking at experienced quality assistant coaches to come in.

I would think Sanderson would be a great choice but it sounds as though he's stitched up elsewhere, but with montgomery now out of the Doggies and some other guys around as well there will be a good option out there, 

I personally think Leigh Tudor would be a great get, he's been at multiple successful clubs and is extremely highly rated as an Assistant, i also wouldn't be against bringing in Cameron Bruce, bit of a Melbourne flavour who's been under Clarko for the last few years, multiple flags as an assistant coach, considered a strong candidate for taking the next step within Hawthorn but probably not quite in the next batch to be signed by clubs just yet so would get a solid 3-4 years out of him

[DV8 2,271]

16 hours ago, BLWNBA said:

You lost me when you listed Mitchell and Hoge as intelligent. Thank you for the laugh. 

Back to the mcc with you, where you can laugh politely.

 

I'd have Hodge over Judd as player, leader, captain, every day of the week.

[What 18,810]

As I stated in the Round 23 post match discussion thread, we must chase and land a gun or two or we are going to once again be left behind and leapfrogged by teams below and around us -

- Essendon will add pick 1 to their returning crop of drug cheats

- St Kilda will be adding a gun in Jake Carlisle

- Brisbane will be bailed out and given a boost by the AFL

- Gold Coast will land a big fish as they are AFL owned and not allowed to fail like GWS

- Freo will add Cam McCarthy, Harley Bennell and possibly a couple of more good players they are linked to

 

We must be ruthless.

[faultydet 7,594]

8 minutes ago, Petraccattack said:

As I stated in the Round 23 post match discussion thread, we must chase and land a gun or two or we are going to once again be left behind and leapfrogged by teams below and around us -

- Essendon will add pick 1 to their returning crop of drug cheats

- St Kilda will be adding a gun in Jake Carlisle

- Brisbane will be bailed out and given a boost by the AFL

- Gold Coast will land a big fish as they are AFL owned and not allowed to fail like GWS

- Freo will add Cam McCarthy, Harley Bennell and possibly a couple of more good players they are linked to

 

We must be ruthless.

Ruthless with what?

We have bugger all to trade, except next years first pick. 

Do you think we should trade that, and if so, for what/whom?

[The Song Formerly Known As 6,479]

2 minutes ago, faultydet said:

Ruthless with what?

We have bugger all to trade, except next years first pick. 

Do you think we should trade that, and if so, for what/whom?

This pretty much sums it up, although we did some creative trading etc. last year which makes me somewhat hopeful we can do something again.

[BLWNBA 926]

49 minutes ago, DV8 said:

Back to the mcc with you, where you can laugh politely.

 

I'd have Hodge over Judd as player, leader, captain, every day of the week.

Thanks pal, I'll enjoy drinking out of a glass.

[faultydet 7,594]

Just now, The Song Formerly Known As said:

This pretty much sums it up, although we did some creative trading etc. last year which makes me somewhat hopeful we can do something again.

I'm betting that our guys realise that although we have many young players who look good early days, we need to bring in some established first 22 types over the next few seasons, including a star or two, in order to be in a serious position to push deep into finals.

At some stage you need to take the plunge and stop putting your faith in youth, and go all out for a flag tilt. It's what norf just failed at, but if they had been able to get a true star over the line in the previous few years, who knows...... The Horks did it beautifully.

We are approaching that time, but are not there yet. We are still at the point where we need early draft picks on high end talent, because we are not good/developed enough to win a flag immediately, even with a star injected into the team. That may eventuate in the next few years if our guys develop the way the have recently.

[Ted Lasso 19,269]

On 8/29/2016 at 1:20 PM, Petraccattack said:

As I stated in the Round 23 post match discussion thread, we must chase and land a gun or two or we are going to once again be left behind and leapfrogged by teams below and around us -

- Essendon will add pick 1 to their returning crop of drug cheats

- St Kilda will be adding a gun in Jake Carlisle

- Brisbane will be bailed out and given a boost by the AFL

- Gold Coast will land a big fish as they are AFL owned and not allowed to fail like GWS

- Freo will add Cam McCarthy, Harley Bennell and possibly a couple of more good players they are linked to

 

We must be ruthless.

and we have the youngest and one of the most talented lists in the AFL, and some of the best development coaches in the AFL, it's foolish to think there isn't going to be significant growth from within regardless of who we bring in.

I am super confident in our list for the first time in a bloody long time

[What 18,810]

1 hour ago, faultydet said:

Ruthless with what?

We have bugger all to trade, except next years first pick. 

Do you think we should trade that, and if so, for what/whom?

Thats for Josh Mahoney and co.  to figure out.

[Redleg 40,811]

ATM, we look like having 4 new faces in the side that lost to the Cats. Oliver, Melksham, Hibberd and Kent. That is 20% of the side for starters.

A couple of good trades, a good pre season for say Hulett, JKH, BenKen, Wagner and Mitch or Max King, or a good draft pick, could add to that.

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,325]

2 hours ago, faultydet said:

Ruthless with what?

We have bugger all to trade, except next years first pick. 

Do you think we should trade that, and if so, for what/whom?

Who's available? Looking at FA and RFA the only one I'd take is Sidebottom. 

So we need to poach someone, I mentioned earlier in this thread someone like Rockliff might be gettable, even more so after today. Or we have go all out and offer massive coin for someone like a Parker but I can't see that happening. 

 

[Red and Blue realist 2,051]

Don't underestimate what a pre-season will do for Petracca (this will really be his first), Brayshaw, Hunt, Viney, Salem, Stretch, Harmes and Vanders will do. All of them can go up another level or two, and with Viney hopefully stop the second half of the season fade out. Guys like Oliver and Kent will hopefully be able to push up the miles in their legs and increase both time on ground and mid field time as well.

Hopefully our forward line not only increase strength and fitness but also awareness of each other. If they click then we'll improve massively, the last couple of games was frustrating seeing the ball being delivered straight to 2 or 3 unmarked defenders, with a bit of experience with each other that should at least go to a contest and not come back out so easy. Experience will fix a lot of issues.

[faultydet 7,594]

17 minutes ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

Who's available? Looking at FA and RFA the only one I'd take is Sidebottom. 

So we need to poach someone, I mentioned earlier in this thread someone like Rockliff might be gettable, even more so after today. Or we have go all out and offer massive coin for someone like a Parker but I can't see that happening. 

 

Wasn't there a rumour re Parker and us last year, or maybe a year earlier?

So many on here say we wouldn't trade a Salem/Brayshaw etc, but if the stars are not f.a, then how else would we get them?

Just can't see us being a player this year, as our currency is seemingly quite low.

[Gator 17,261]

2 hours ago, Petraccattack said:

As I stated in the Round 23 post match discussion thread, we must chase and land a gun or two or we are going to once again be left behind and leapfrogged by teams below and around us...

Outside of GWS name other clubs' top dozen '23 and unders' and rank clubs in order of quality.  I'll give you our top 12: Oliver, Viney, Hogan, Brayshaw, Petracca, Salem, Tyson, Stretch, Kent, Frost, O. McDonald, Weideman. 

I doubt you'll find any other club matches that group, so I think your concerns of clubs flying past us off the back of one draft are unwarranted.

With Watts and Melksham as other top 10 draft picks in our best 2017 team I count 10 x top 10 draft picks (bid or actual) in the lineup.  Name another club that will have 10 top 10 draft picks running around next year. 

I'm very comfortable with the team that's emerging notwithstanding we may not add the "gun" you crave.  

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

On 8/26/2016 at 3:50 PM, Wiseblood said:

Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, but I don't think we'll be major players in the trade period outside of getting Hibberd.  Without a first round pick this year, and a feeling that we won't trade next years as it would have us out of the first round two years in a row, I don't think we can compete with other clubs for the likes of O'Meara, Prestia or Mitchell.  I can't see the club trading away one of our future stars to get one, and our fringe players aren't going to get the job done either.  The likes of Carlton, Richmond, St. Kilda and Essendon will all have a first round pick and it sounds like all of them are happy to trade them away.

Again, this isn't a bad thing.  If or when we get the Hibberd deal done I can see us sticking with the picks we have, or moving on players like Grimes and Dawes for later picks, and not doing much else.  I think the club will back our youngsters in for improvements over the off-season and into 2017.

Well I think we have to be if we want to see a jump in ladder position again. And I think the games against Geelong and Carlton have only highlighted the fact that we need to be active. Not only that, it's worth remembering that St Kilda, Collingwood, Essendon and Port will be vying for a top eight position. Supporters tend to forget that other clubs also improve over the off-season.

Whilst I agree that we don't have much to work with at present, I'm hoping we can somehow creatively make a play for some upgraded draft picks which we can ontrade or creatively make a play for topliner. But that's not our only concern.

I think one of the age-old cliches that circulates these parts at the end of the season is the following: 'Natural improvement from young players over the off-season'. An obvious observation in which some supporters (not saying you) seem to magically think doesn't apply to any other club within the AFL. 

If any Melbourne supporter genuinely thinks we'll make the eight next year on the back of only adding Hibberd during the off-season will be in for nasty surprise.

In my opinion there are three key areas that need addressing if we're to make the eight next year:

 

1 - Age and games experience across all lines of the field. 

2 - Foot-skills and running power.

3 - A Ruckman/forward who has the ability to play in tandem with Max Gawn.

 

In my view, all three can be achieved without much fuss. 

For point 1, I really think that we can bring in some guys who will provide leadership both on and off-field and games experience which we desperately. Equally important will be the fact that these players can fill positions that certain players have manfully struggled to fill for the entire year like Oscar McDonald. 

The fact is, our backline is in desperate need of age and games experience to protect and cover for so many kids who have played through there this year. Let's say we landed Hibberd in a trade and signed Nathan Brown as a restricted FA. The entire back six would look and feel so much more cohesive and would be so much better supported.       

B            Jetta           Brown         O-Mac 

HB        Hibberd        T-Mac      (Spot up for grabs)

 

^ Just looking at those names inspires so much more confidence. It allows for one of Frost or O-Mac to continue to develop their game and bodies at VFL level (which frankly is where both should have been this year if it weren't for degenerate leaders; Dunn and Garland). It would provide healthy competition of spots for Oscar and Frost and it increases our key position depth overall. Personally, I'm still not convinced Frost has the fundamental footballing ability to be a consistent performer at this level. He has an incredible athletic profile, but he is way way too much of a risk to carry into a finals campaign as a definite starter at this current point as is Oscar. Especially both of them playing at once. That should be obvious.

A backline with the addition of Hibberd as a flanker would also allow the release of Hunt to come up to the wing and really add a dimension that has been missing through our midfield for a long time. Serious running power. His ability to cut angles and break lines is huge as we have almost nobody else on the list who can do the same and many of our mids are single-geared runners. 

Key area number 2 will commence tomorrow.

To be continued...

Edited August 29, 2016 by stevethemanjordan

[Members' Wing 1,106]

10 minutes ago, ProDee said:

Outside of GWS name other clubs' top dozen '23 and unders' and rank clubs in order of quality.  I'll give you our top 12: Oliver, Viney, Hogan, Brayshaw, Petracca, Salem, Tyson, Stretch, Kent, Frost, O. McDonald, Weideman. 

I doubt you'll find any other club matches that group, so I think your concerns of clubs flying past us off the back of one draft are unwarranted.

With Watts and Melksham as other top 10 draft picks in our best 2017 team I count 10 x top 10 draft picks (bid or actual) in the lineup.  Name another club that will have 10 top 10 draft picks running around next year. 

I'm very comfortable with the team that's emerging notwithstanding we may not add the "gun" you crave.  

Great point PD. You've forgotten Hunt too, maybe in place of Frost...

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

1 hour ago, ProDee said:

Outside of GWS name other clubs' top dozen '23 and unders' and rank clubs in order of quality.  I'll give you our top 12: Oliver, Viney, Hogan, Brayshaw, Petracca, Salem, Tyson, Stretch, Kent, Frost, O. McDonald, Weideman. 

I doubt you'll find any other club matches that group, so I think your concerns of clubs flying past us off the back of one draft are unwarranted.

With Watts and Melksham as other top 10 draft picks in our best 2017 team I count 10 x top 10 draft picks (bid or actual) in the lineup.  Name another club that will have 10 top 10 draft picks running around next year. 

I'm very comfortable with the team that's emerging notwithstanding we may not add the "gun" you crave.  

Dogs, Collingwood Gold Coast (and to a lesser extent the Saints) have lists that would rival ours and I reckon it's far too early to tell until genuine stars emerge.

Part of the development for these guys is to be around really strong and experienced leaders which is something we presently come last in if comparing to any other club.

It'll be interesting to see how many of our guys reach their potential without the push that many others would get at opposing clubs.

Edited August 29, 2016 by stevethemanjordan