2 minutes ago, grazman said:

Structure and flexibility.  Frost is insurance up forward, down back or in the ruck, he's also athletic enough not to lose any run by leaving him on the ground for extended periods.  Not getting a lot of it at the moment, but I can see why he'd be picked.  A work in progress.

Agree, without Dawes, they both play.

BTW Grazman, in your avatar, is that Paul Simonon holding the chair?

3 minutes ago, mo64 said:

Agree, without Dawes, they both play.

BTW Grazman, in your avatar, is that Paul Simonon holding the chair?

Well it's a Banksy...so he was definitely referencing Paul Simonon.  The reason I chose it is it because I love intertextuality. I love both Banksy and the Clash.  It's also referencing the past ten years as a Dees supporter!

10 minutes ago, grazman said:

Structure and flexibility.  Frost is insurance up forward, down back or in the ruck, he's also athletic enough not to lose any run by leaving him on the ground for extended periods.  

I don't think you can pick someone based on "insurance" alone, I think you've got to work out whether you'd be better to have Hogan, Watts, Pedersen and Frost and miss out on having someone like Harmes or Oliver in the team or leave one of the talls out and get another solid contributing mid.

There will be games where injury catches you out but that's footy.  Over 22 games you're best to have the best 22 on the ground IMO. 

Reality is I don't think either Frost or Pedersen are genuine AFL footballers and they are just holding the fort until Weideman or a King gets going.

Clearly opposition structures will be considered in selection but if a team stretches us forward would you play O Mac or Frost back to counter them?  I've not seen Frost do a defensive job yet so while he has all the physical attributes I don't know how good he is.

How good is it that we now have one of the tightest races for selection and quite clearly it's still undecided.

The reason for the selection issues is that the three guys who some have had in/out all through this thread - Harmes, Kennedy and Oliver - all had cracking games. Two are key members of our best forward press ever - Kent and Jeffy and Frost and Pedo are all part of this too. Hoges is when he wants to be and even Jack W seems to be a bit more eager to be a part of it. How different is it from the good old Neeld days when he tried to impose a press and didn't have buy in from Col Sylvia and had such a slow side that it didn't really matter anyway.

Looking at the changes for Rd 1, Brayshaw and VB would both have to have blinders this week to both get in and even then I'm not sure they get in, although quite obviously they will be in once we have an injury or bad day.

Matt Jones' (courtesy of his minor injury) and Michie come out of the 24 from the Saints, Oscar makes room for Dunny and the Prince returns for Wagner but then it gets mega hard for the selectors and for us.

The loss of Pedo (if suspended) would make it easier but if that happens VB extra height probably gets him in to play as the high half/fourth tall. But if Pedo is cleared then how tough is it.

Frost - Playing against his old side and gives flexibility and coverage in case of a big going down and whilst his detractors may have missed it, he works extremely hard chasing down and applying pressure. And he's bloody quick for a big bloke. I wouldn't want to tell him he's out and I can't really see it happening v the Giants.

Grimes - Everyone's favourite to remove but the guy keeps presenting and while he lacks explosive pace, he is mega endurance fit which means with reduced interchange rotations he becomes more important. It would be an extremely hard, almost nasty call, to drop him.

Harmes/Kennedy - how could you drop these guys after their press work that was a huge factor in us winning the game.

Oliver/Tyson - How good was Oliver and if it gets down to him v VB, it's not easy. The club's spent the pre-season using his excitement for promotion and I just can't see them dropping him. Tyson's penchant for getting caught annoys quite a few of us, but his workrate is huge and his thumping kick is handy. He's also playing against his old side. Both of these guys score goals as midfielders, so why would you flick one of them unless their form warrants it.

Bugg - Don't even think about it. He's a lock against his old side.

IMO, if Pedo gets off, then only one of Brayshaw or VB will get back in and VB's extra height and speed (even though he's not as classy or as good a kick) means he will get the nod, with Angus having to spend a week in VFL before playing against Essendon. 

And because Mummy is such a nasty pice of work, I reckon we will stay with Frost so that we are covered in case of injury. And that means Roosy will have to be coming up with all sort of spin doctoring telling Grimes he's the 23rd man. Probably the same script as last year when he told him he was no longer dual captain.

My Rd 1 team (assumes Pedo is available):

B: Jetta Dunn Garland

HB: Lumumba T-Mac Salem

C: VB Vince Bugg

HF: Harmes Pedo Kent

F:   Garlett Hogan Watts

Int: Kennedy, Tyson, Frost, Oliver

Emerg: Grimes, Brayshaw, O.Mac

 

9 minutes ago, Baghdad Bob said:

I don't think you can pick someone based on "insurance" alone, I think you've got to work out whether you'd be better to have Hogan, Watts, Pedersen and Frost and miss out on having someone like Harmes or Oliver in the team or leave one of the talls out and get another solid contributing mid.

There will be games where injury catches you out but that's footy.  Over 22 games you're best to have the best 22 on the ground IMO. 

Reality is I don't think either Frost or Pedersen are genuine AFL footballers and they are just holding the fort until Weideman or a King gets going.

Clearly opposition structures will be considered in selection but if a team stretches us forward would you play O Mac or Frost back to counter them?  I've not seen Frost do a defensive job yet so while he has all the physical attributes I don't know how good he is.

You don't know how good he is, but don't think he's a genuine AFL footballer ?

-

2 minutes ago, ProDee said:

You don't know how good he is, but don't think he's a genuine AFL footballer ?

I think he's a player with good potential but I don't think he'd get a game with a lot of the better teams.  When I said I don't know how good he is I meant I don't know how good he is as a defender because I haven't seen him play in defence.

2 minutes ago, Baghdad Bob said:

I think he's a player with good potential but I don't think he'd get a game with a lot of the better teams.  When I said I don't know how good he is I meant I don't know how good he is as a defender because I haven't seen him play in defence.

If Fitzpatrick gets games at Hawthorn then frost is a "genuine" AFL footballer.

49 minutes ago, grazman said:

Nice dilemma to have as opposed to having to pick from a bunch of NQRs or underdeveloped juniors. 

Goodwin thought Oliver was a little sloppy in the first half, and certainly the entire side made a slow start (that's three from three- let's see if we can't fix that for the season proper).  The Saints were on top in the clearances early, we came back stronger in the second half - Oliver is the most exciting genuine inside mid I can remember for a long time.  It's not hard to see why people compare him with Bradshaw in terms of potential impact.  Both hard at it, uncompromising and excellent decision makers.  He Is the best handball exponent we've had since Alan Jarrot. (well OK, we might have had some others since the mid 80s)

I thought your earlier post where you named two sides showed how many kids we actually have, some have played a few games whilst some haven't played at all. They are all still growing. I think we are still at least 12 months away from real depth. If you skip back to the start of the thread there were one or two names who were locks according to some now aren't named in anyone's side due to injury and poor form. We cannot afford injury to a key position player. 

I

18 minutes ago, Baghdad Bob said:

I don't think you can pick someone based on "insurance" alone, I think you've got to work out whether you'd be better to have Hogan, Watts, Pedersen and Frost and miss out on having someone like Harmes or Oliver in the team or leave one of the talls out and get another solid contributing mid.

I don't think he's purely insurance 'alone'.  Insurance alone would mean sides would play a second ruck man on the bench with minimal game time - a la Darren Jolly under Neale Daniher.  Sides need to be able to not only cover opposition strengths, but expose weaknesses as well.  I don't necessarily disagree with your proposition, he needs to get far more of the ball, but I will be surprised if he isn't picked in the opening round. 

 

People don't like my attack on certain players after 7-8 years in the system. Frost has played under 30 games.

On 7 March 2016 at 1:36 AM, CHF said:

This is the team I posted in the OP way back towards the end of January. 

FB:  Garland. T Mac. Dunn

HB: Salem. Frost. Jetta

C: Vince. N. Jones. Stretch

HF: Kent. Dawes. Brayshaw

F: Watts. Hogan. Garlett

FOL: Gawn. Viney. VDB

INT: Hames. Kennedy, Tyson, Pedo.

With the first two NAB games out of the way and a few injuries, revelation of form and niggles uncovered, I would make the following adjustments to my R1 team.

FB:  Garland. Dunn. Jetta

HB: Salem. T Mac. Vince

C: M Jones. Viney. Grimes

HF: Kent. Pedo. VDB

F: Watts. Hogan. Garlett

FOL: Gawn. VDB. N. Jones

INT: Hames. Bugg, Tyson, Stretch

In a team like this I could see us stacking runners on the bench to cover the limited rotations and to try and keep the grunt in the midfield. I see a lot of time on the ground for Gawn, Pedo and Dunn.

I don't expect Lumumba or Dawes to be Match fit for R1. Brayshaw is a chance to be there and if so, he replaces Grimes and Grimes drops to the bench to replace Stretch. Petracca or even ANB may put their hands up if they get a run in NAB3 or the Casey praccy games. Frost will not get in the team on present form and will need to run into form at Casey.

Disappointed that you are going against the pundits ( and recent form) in not selecting Oliver!

31 minutes ago, Deespicable said:

How good is it that we now have one of the tightest races for selection and quite clearly it's still undecided.

The reason for the selection issues is that the three guys who some have had in/out all through this thread - Harmes, Kennedy and Oliver - all had cracking games. Two are key members of our best forward press ever - Kent and Jeffy and Frost and Pedo are all part of this too. Hoges is when he wants to be and even Jack W seems to be a bit more eager to be a part of it. How different is it from the good old Neeld days when he tried to impose a press and didn't have buy in from Col Sylvia and had such a slow side that it didn't really matter anyway.

Looking at the changes for Rd 1, Brayshaw and VB would both have to have blinders this week to both get in and even then I'm not sure they get in, although quite obviously they will be in once we have an injury or bad day.

Matt Jones' (courtesy of his minor injury) and Michie come out of the 24 from the Saints, Oscar makes room for Dunny and the Prince returns for Wagner but then it gets mega hard for the selectors and for us.

The loss of Pedo (if suspended) would make it easier but if that happens VB extra height probably gets him in to play as the high half/fourth tall. But if Pedo is cleared then how tough is it.

Frost - Playing against his old side and gives flexibility and coverage in case of a big going down and whilst his detractors may have missed it, he works extremely hard chasing down and applying pressure. And he's bloody quick for a big bloke. I wouldn't want to tell him he's out and I can't really see it happening v the Giants.

Grimes - Everyone's favourite to remove but the guy keeps presenting and while he lacks explosive pace, he is mega endurance fit which means with reduced interchange rotations he becomes more important. It would be an extremely hard, almost nasty call, to drop him.

Harmes/Kennedy - how could you drop these guys after their press work that was a huge factor in us winning the game.

Oliver/Tyson - How good was Oliver and if it gets down to him v VB, it's not easy. The club's spent the pre-season using his excitement for promotion and I just can't see them dropping him. Tyson's penchant for getting caught annoys quite a few of us, but his workrate is huge and his thumping kick is handy. He's also playing against his old side. Both of these guys score goals as midfielders, so why would you flick one of them unless their form warrants it.

Bugg - Don't even think about it. He's a lock against his old side.

IMO, if Pedo gets off, then only one of Brayshaw or VB will get back in and VB's extra height and speed (even though he's not as classy or as good a kick) means he will get the nod, with Angus having to spend a week in VFL before playing against Essendon. 

And because Mummy is such a nasty pice of work, I reckon we will stay with Frost so that we are covered in case of injury. And that means Roosy will have to be coming up with all sort of spin doctoring telling Grimes he's the 23rd man. Probably the same script as last year when he told him he was no longer dual captain.

My Rd 1 team (assumes Pedo is available):

B: Jetta Dunn Garland

HB: Lumumba T-Mac Salem

C: VB Vince Bugg

HF: Harmes Pedo Kent

F:   Garlett Hogan Watts

Int: Kennedy, Tyson, Frost, Oliver

Emerg: Grimes, Brayshaw, O.Mac

 

Interesting that you are going for a 15 man squad without Gawn, Jones or Vanders! I think that you are taking the Giants for granted.

Dunstall made an interesting observation when asked what he saw in store for the Dees in 2016.  He wasn't sure if we had a couple of "stars" that would take us up the ladder.

To become a top 4 team and threaten for a flag there's no doubt we need stars.  The best chances of players becoming stars at the Dees are Hogan, Petracca, Oliver and Brayshaw.  Hope like hell that a couple (all) can make that progression.  Some may say Gawn, Tyson, Viney or Salem, but I don't see any of those players becoming stars.  Not the sort of stars I'm talking about.  I'm talking about Judd, Voss, Carey level stars.  Although Gawn is our most important player along with Hogan.  Most important is different from star.

FB:  Garland. Dunn. Jetta

HB: Salem. T Mac. Vince

C: Harmes. Viney. Oliver

HF: Kent. Pedo. Watts

F: VdB. Hogan. Garlett

FOL: Gawn. Tyson, N.Jones

 

INT: Bugg, Brayshaw, CP5, Kennedy

Petracca won't be ready, neither will Trengove. I'd have Petracca on the bench and Trengove on the HBF to release Vince into the middle, pushing Oliver to the bench. 

I never thought I'd say this, but Matt Jones is worth a spot on the bench and Harmes has probably just done enough, although I want to see a lot more from him on the scoreboard if he's going to be a regular.

B : Jetta - Dunn - Garland

HB : Vince - T.McDonald - Salem

C - Tyson - Viney - Brayshaw

HF - Vandenberg - Pederson - Kent

FF - Garlett - Hogan - Watts

FOLL : Gawn - Jones - Oliver

INT - Bugg - Kennedy - M Jones - Harmes 

EM - Stretch - Frost - Lumumba

2 hours ago, Deespicable said:

How good is it that we now have one of the tightest races for selection and quite clearly it's still undecided.

The reason for the selection issues is that the three guys who some have had in/out all through this thread - Harmes, Kennedy and Oliver - all had cracking games. Two are key members of our best forward press ever - Kent and Jeffy and Frost and Pedo are all part of this too. Hoges is when he wants to be and even Jack W seems to be a bit more eager to be a part of it. How different is it from the good old Neeld days when he tried to impose a press and didn't have buy in from Col Sylvia and had such a slow side that it didn't really matter anyway.

Looking at the changes for Rd 1, Brayshaw and VB would both have to have blinders this week to both get in and even then I'm not sure they get in, although quite obviously they will be in once we have an injury or bad day.

Matt Jones' (courtesy of his minor injury) and Michie come out of the 24 from the Saints, Oscar makes room for Dunny and the Prince returns for Wagner but then it gets mega hard for the selectors and for us.

The loss of Pedo (if suspended) would make it easier but if that happens VB extra height probably gets him in to play as the high half/fourth tall. But if Pedo is cleared then how tough is it.

Frost - Playing against his old side and gives flexibility and coverage in case of a big going down and whilst his detractors may have missed it, he works extremely hard chasing down and applying pressure. And he's bloody quick for a big bloke. I wouldn't want to tell him he's out and I can't really see it happening v the Giants.

Grimes - Everyone's favourite to remove but the guy keeps presenting and while he lacks explosive pace, he is mega endurance fit which means with reduced interchange rotations he becomes more important. It would be an extremely hard, almost nasty call, to drop him.

Harmes/Kennedy - how could you drop these guys after their press work that was a huge factor in us winning the game.

Oliver/Tyson - How good was Oliver and if it gets down to him v VB, it's not easy. The club's spent the pre-season using his excitement for promotion and I just can't see them dropping him. Tyson's penchant for getting caught annoys quite a few of us, but his workrate is huge and his thumping kick is handy. He's also playing against his old side. Both of these guys score goals as midfielders, so why would you flick one of them unless their form warrants it.

Bugg - Don't even think about it. He's a lock against his old side.

IMO, if Pedo gets off, then only one of Brayshaw or VB will get back in and VB's extra height and speed (even though he's not as classy or as good a kick) means he will get the nod, with Angus having to spend a week in VFL before playing against Essendon. 

And because Mummy is such a nasty pice of work, I reckon we will stay with Frost so that we are covered in case of injury. And that means Roosy will have to be coming up with all sort of spin doctoring telling Grimes he's the 23rd man. Probably the same script as last year when he told him he was no longer dual captain.

My Rd 1 team (assumes Pedo is available):

B: Jetta Dunn Garland

HB: Lumumba T-Mac Salem

C: VB Vince Bugg

HF: Harmes Pedo Kent

F:   Garlett Hogan Watts

Int: Kennedy, Tyson, Frost, Oliver

Emerg: Grimes, Brayshaw, O.Mac

 

thats an interesting setup Deespicable... but is it that good,  we can go in 3 men down  ???   

8 hours ago, big_red_fire_engine said:

Jetta   Dunn  Garland

Salem  T-Mac Vince

Bugg    Tyson   M Jones

Watts    Pederson  Vandenberg

Garlett   Hogan      Kent

Gawn    Jones    Viney

Frost  Kennedy Oliver Brayshaw

After now watching the replay on TV I find it hard to leave Harmes out. Takes Brayshaw's spot if he is not cherry ripe or unfortunately on a wing instead of Matt Jones. Kennedy for mine offers a point of difference that needs to be retained and Kent save himself this week with an improved performance.

FB: Jetta   Dunn Garland

HB: Vince  McDonald  Salem

C: M. Jones  Jones   Bugg

HF: Kent   Hogan  Vanders

FF: Watts  Pedersen Garlett

Foll: Gawn Tyson  Viney

Int: Lumumba  Kennedy  Oliver  Brayshaw

Presuming Dunn, Lumumba, Brayshaw and Vanders are right to go I think the contentious spots comes down to:

A) 2nd wing spot: Harmes v Matt Jones v Grimes. I don't expect Matt Jones to be popular but sometimes the hard choice is the right one. Similarly I don't expect leaving Harmes out to feel right but someone has to be unlucky. Harmes in the post match interview alluded to getting the opportunity to play wing and needing some big training weeks to get in the round 1 team. It might come down to who is using the ball and covering the ground better at training the next two weeks. Not an easy call.

B) Frost or Pedo. And I think Pedo has the edge there. Frost or no Frost. Personally I think the marking power of Vanders and defensive pressure of Vanders, Brayshaw and the others who have played so far make leaving him out the right thing to do. 

Run and speed will be vital to beat the Giants. I don't think we need to be going in too tall and we need positional versatility given the rotation cap.

Hope to see Matt Jones in the round 1 squad. Something has really clicked for him over the pre-season. He's competed well and I don't think I've seen him miss a target so far.

FB: Jetta Dunn Garland

HB: Salem McDonald Lumumba

C:  Vince Viney Brayshaw

HF: Watts  Pederson Vandenberg

FF: Garlett Hogan Kent

Foll: Gawn Tyson Jones

Int: Bugg Kennedy Frost Oliver

Emg: M Jones Harmes Grimes 

I think Lumumba will get first crack at back flank if he plays well for Casey next week, if he doesn't do enough M Jones comes in and Vince moves to a back flank.

 

4 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Presuming Dunn, Lumumba, Brayshaw and Vanders are right to go I think the contentious spots comes down to:

A) 2nd wing spot: Harmes v Matt Jones v Grimes. I don't expect Matt Jones to be popular but sometimes the hard choice is the right one. Similarly I don't expect leaving Harmes out to feel right but someone has to be unlucky. Harmes in the post match interview alluded to getting the opportunity to play wing and needing some big training weeks to get in the round 1 team. It might come down to who is using the ball and covering the ground better at training the next two weeks. Not an easy call.

B) Frost or Pedo. And I think Pedo has the edge there. Frost or no Frost. Personally I think the marking power of Vanders and defensive pressure of Vanders, Brayshaw and the others who have played so far make leaving him out the right thing to do. 

Run and speed will be vital to beat the Giants. I don't think we need to be going in too tall and we need positional versatility given the rotation cap.

If form is the criteria for selection, I fail to see how Lumumba walks into the team ahead of Harmes. 

I agree with your last comment. With Cameron's likely suspension, I'd move Frost down back to play on Lobb, and ruck against Lobb when Mummy is rested. Again if form is the criteria, Garland should be omitted, and doesn't have an obvious match up anyway. 

FB: Jetta - Dunn - Garland

HB: Salem - McD - Bugg

C: Vince - Viney - Brayshaw

HF: Kent - Pedo - Harmes

FF: Garlett - Hogan - Watts

R: Gawn - Tyson - N.Jones

I: Kennedy - Vanders - Frost - Oliver

Goodwin says Brayshaw will play VFL this week...   guess he might play Round 1 after all.

3 minutes ago, mo64 said:

If form is the criteria for selection, I fail to see how Lumumba walks into the team ahead of Harmes. 

I agree with your last comment. With Cameron's likely suspension, I'd move Frost down back to play on Lobb, and ruck against Lobb when Mummy is rested. Again if form is the criteria, Garland should be omitted, and doesn't have an obvious match up anyway. 

We need 7 guys to go through the back 6. Lumumba gets in because so far Wagner and Hunt aren't up to it and he's the next best option. Plus he has speed and endurance to go on to the wing. Along with Vince going from half back on to the ball, and Nath Jones doing a little of the opposite that's our best backline I think. 

I'm a Harmes fan and I think he can play almost every position on the ground, but so far he's only been trialled as a half forward with stints on the wing and on the ball. 

Garland's had poor moments but he did a lot of good against the Saints. He'll be picked for round 1 and play on the 3rd tall as usual. They won't be experimenting with Frost down back for round 1. Garland has spent preseason learning the zone aspects and practising his kicking from the backline (with variable results). Taking him out and throwing Frost back is being very hopefully.