Buckenara obviously doesn't rate Oliver?

The bulk of Bucky's viewing of this years crop was done prior to him departing Hawthorn. He would have seen a good deal of these guys last year and for about the first 6 months or so of the 2015 season.

Whilst I'm sure he's kept an eye on the main players since, Oliver's run of form and rise up rankings has occurred since Buckenara stepped away from his recruiting gig, so he probably doesn't have the most current information on him. The Hawks have probably adjusted their own rankings based on the fresher data. Good on Bucky for calling it as he sees it rather than trying to fill in the gaps with second hand info.

Like everyone else here, I can only guess at who we might select with these picks. However, I am 100% positive that I'll be thrilled with our selections come 08:30 on Tuesday evening. For the first time in eons, I know that our Club will be completely on top of the credentials of all the contenders, and that a couple of important pieces will be ticked off against a master plan. IMO the turn-around in our list has been nothing short of remarkable in a few short years, and right now, nobody could convince me that that we won't 'nail it' again. Yeah, I know I'm a sill old fart, but .....

tyson, salem, viney, brayshaw, hogan, cross, vince, harmes, garlett, vandenberg, stretch, ANB, frost ... we have kicked a LOT of goals with the personnel we have recently brought in/developed at the club. Fills me with great confidence that we will continue in this vein.

I can't wait for all of us to stop guessing and bloody find out who the hell we are getting.

Bring on the draft.

It can't come quick enough for me.

and to watch the official mfc 'welcome/highlights/interview' videos on draft night... that's when S gets real

This is a question worthy of it's own subject. Who was the last elite mid we had.

I'm thinking Robbie. Has there been an elite midfielder since then. Before that probably Greg Wells, Stan Alves.

Love to hear some suggestions.

Jones is very close surely

Jones is very close surely

Very close. My only knock on Jonesy is that he's not really a player who can turn a game back our way when the opposition get a momentum run on. That's the definition for me. Robbie & Wellsie could do that. Think J Selwood Mitchell Hodge Kennedy or Dangerfield nowadays.

Someone mentioned the Brownlow medallists. Let's face it Woeys was one of the most unlikely of all time. He had a couple of great years mainly as a half back. Wilson was most effective as a forward pocket. Could be brilliant but wouldn't say he was a long term A class mid.

Edited November 19, 20159 yr by It's Time

Just for you Ben

some handy names

Decent forwards not taken in round 1 of a draft

Richard Osborne

Warren Tredrea a SA zone selection..would he have gone 1st round ? maybe...doubt it

Dermott Brereton

David Neitz

Daniel Bradshaw

Jack Riewoldt outside (the top 10 )

John Longmire

Alastair Lynch

Wayne Carey for a paltry $10000 transfer back in the day

Fraser Gehrig

Barry Hall pick 19...not first round eh

Matthew Richardson yes father /son....but would he have gone first round ?

Brendan Fevola

Peter Sumich

Matthew Lloyd

Steve Johnson

Cam Mooney

Adam Goodes

Is there a hidden camera ?

I'm waiting for someone to jump out wearing goggles, flippers and a snorkel.

Darcy parish is bloody light at 74kg. I highly doubt we would see him running round next year if we draft him. Cameron Hunter Mach 2. SEN Are reporting that we have gone off him and think we might punt on Curnow. Who knows? It's all a guessing game for those outside the club

I don't know if you realise what Hogan is.

He is a bonafide star and fulcrum of a functioning forward line that will make lesser players play above themselves.

The Forwardline doesn't need a plethora of talent to run through it like a midfield does. In todays game there is about 10 mids going through at any one game.

Hogan will be everpresent as one of 6 and, as much as I love Viney and Brayshaw, in a different class altogether.

Clubs can manipulate personnel in the forward line to create a working forward line, like the Hawks did when they lost Franklin and Freo have done with only Pavlich, like Geelong did with Mooney and a less dominant Hawkins, like the Saints did with Riewoldt.

But if that midfield doesn't bat deep, it's all moot.

And the experience of teams is that they haven't reached for talls and if they felt bereft - they found them later in the draft or in trades or in the rookie draft.

Hogan can't do it on his own.

...and to mangle an 'Old Dee' saying you can't make a silk purse out of Dawes and Peders...

Hawthorns lesser talents are a damned sight better than Dawes & Pedersen, there's a reason Freo can't win a flag, Mooney is a lot better than what we have as a role player and you forget Stevie J was a forward and Ottens also spent time there.

St Kilda didn't win a flag, a great midfield, solid defence one of the all time great forwards but not enough goal kicking power when it mattered.

The good teams haven't found their top forwards later in the draft or as rookies, that's just not true. As for trades, they have been very hard to get as Freo found out this year. Franklin and Boyd could both be a bust, Fev was and WC were lucky to get the trade they got for Judd returning home. For all their trying clubs couldn't move Cameron out of GWS...Gunston is probably the only real success story.

Yes ruckman have come from later in the draft, trades or the rookie list but that's a whole different story.

I'm not talking about reaching for talls or a KPF, I don't know where you keep dragging this up from. A lot are still saying mids, mids and more mids and this is reaching.

If there is a good KPF available (not reaching) and he is seen as the equal or better than the mid available at the same pick then we take him.

edit: I still think we will take Parish at 3 by the way.

Edited November 19, 20159 yr by rjay

Reading things like this excites me. I have really high hopes for Salem. Do others agree he could potentially be one of our best?

Yep, that kid is class and grunt. Would be my favourite player if not for Hogan.

The more I'm thinking about it the more I think we are going to get curnow at 3 and get one of the best available mid fielders at 7. With widemans injuries and fitness concerns I feel as though we might be looking at locking curnow away early.

Interesting that Buckenara doesn't have Oliver in top 18 and my Recruiting mates at both Geelong & Hawthorn tell me that both Clubs rate Oliver in the 15 to 20 range.

Hawks rate Gresham higher than Oliver and Cats rate Curnow as 3rd best player in the Draft.

Shhhhhhhhh, don't tell olisik, may have a hemorrhage.

We need a poll so we can all put our choice for pick three on line and celebrate or get ridiculed about our selections in five years time.

I agree with certain posters that have said this draft is doing their head in. I keep changing my mind....so far its been Parish, Weideman, back to Parish, Oliver, McKay, Curnow.

Ultimately its going to come down to just getting a bit lucky isnt it. All the research and hours watching tapes and games still doesn't tell you that Ollie Wines will be who he became, or that Watts would become who he did..or Fyfe etc etc

Im going to like whoever we pick at 3 and 7 because they've all probably been in my mind at some point...Im just going to also pray that the footy gods are on our side this year!

Just got to believe in the club now.

They seem to be getting everything right these days.

Shhhhhhhhh, don't tell olisik, may have a hemorrhage.

Too late

I don't know if you realise what Hogan is.

He is a bonafide star and fulcrum of a functioning forward line that will make lesser players play above themselves.

The Forwardline doesn't need a plethora of talent to run through it like a midfield does. In todays game there is about 10 mids going through at any one game.

Hogan will be everpresent as one of 6 and, as much as I love Viney and Brayshaw, in a different class altogether.

Clubs can manipulate personnel in the forward line to create a working forward line, like the Hawks did when they lost Franklin and Freo have done with only Pavlich, like Geelong did with Mooney and a less dominant Hawkins, like the Saints did with Riewoldt.

But if that midfield doesn't bat deep, it's all moot.

And the experience of teams is that they haven't reached for talls and if they felt bereft - they found them later in the draft or in trades or in the rookie draft.

This ^^^

We're showing signs of life in the midfield but its a long way off from being scarey.

Totally agree RPFC...there are role players that can and will be pressed into fwd service. Others can be garnered later in drafts or brought in. The dont need be stars..just decent and able.

The simple reality is if the midfield doesn't hold up then its defenders copping the game time, no need to worry about fwds abilities then.

Actually. ..thats sounds awfully familiar....thats where weve come from. Only as the midfield becomes more capable does the ball go fwd. We can score when opportunity presents.

The goal of this draft ought to be staring everyone in the face.

And yet Wallace is the only coach to have publicly admitted to tanking (for Cotchin).

Libratore was a coach at Carlton and admitted it...

Just sayin....

The goal of this draft ought to be staring everyone in the face.

Always is 'bb'...best available.

Hogan can't do it on his own.

...and to mangle an 'Old Dee' saying you can't make a silk purse out of Dawes and Peders...

Hawthorns lesser talents are a damned sight better than Dawes & Pedersen, there's a reason Freo can't win a flag, Mooney is a lot better than what we have as a role player and you forget Stevie J was a forward and Ottens also spent time there.

St Kilda didn't win a flag, a great midfield, solid defence one of the all time great forwards but not enough goal kicking power when it mattered.

The good teams haven't found their top forwards later in the draft or as rookies, that's just not true. As for trades, they have been very hard to get as Freo found out this year. Franklin and Boyd could both be a bust, Fev was and WC were lucky to get the trade they got for Judd returning home. For all their trying clubs couldn't move Cameron out of GWS...Gunston is probably the only real success story.

Yes ruckman have come from later in the draft, trades or the rookie list but that's a whole different story.

I'm not talking about reaching for talls or a KPF, I don't know where you keep dragging this up from. A lot are still saying mids, mids and more mids and this is reaching.

If there is a good KPF available (not reaching) and he is seen as the equal or better than the mid available at the same pick then we take him.

edit: I still think we will take Parish at 3 by the way.

It doesn't make sense what you are saying. Hawthorn have at least 12 i50s a game more than us and they get it in quicker and more acurately. Hawthorn's midfield with our fwd line would do very well indeed.

Freo's problem is more to do with their movement into the fwd line. In 2014 they kicked atrociously and most likley would have won if mayne and Ballantyne had kicked more like they usually do.

As for St Kilda, they went very close to winning a GF. And the Saints had a better fwd line than Collingwood. So its disingenuous to say that the Saints fwd line didn't include enough firepower.

And with all of your examples, the midfields were outstanding. So far ahead of melbourne's its not funny. And they all got to grand finals. You can't put the cart before the horse. You have to get the ball into the fwd line as the first step.

Your premise seems to be that we already have a decent midfield (or will have) and therefore need to focus on key forwards. Its a false premise and unproven.

We need a poll so we can all put our choice for pick three on line and celebrate or get ridiculed about our selections in five years time.

There's nothing quite like ridiculing others five years after the fact

Darcy parish is bloody light at 74kg. I highly doubt we would see him running round next year if we draft him. Cameron Hunter Mach 2. SEN Are reporting that we have gone off him and think we might punt on Curnow. Who knows? It's all a guessing game for those outside the club

We've gone off him based on what? Have Taylor and Viney been reading Olisik's rave on Oliver? If we traded for pick 3 to get Parish, nothing has changed.

And quite frankly I don't give a rats about body weight for a midfielder if he ticks all the boxes when it comes to football talent.

Always is 'bb'...best available.

Ive totally come to this ideal also...best avail.. Id reiterate a concern that rpfc illustrated a while back and that was the worry youd reach past a better mid to get a good fwd only because its perceived we are lame up front and the only way is to recruit a fwd ( who wont impact likely for 2-3 anyway )

It doesn't make sense what you are saying. Hawthorn have at least 12 i50s a game more than us and they get it in quicker and more acurately. Hawthorn's midfield with our fwd line would do very well indeed.

Freo's problem is more to do with their movement into the fwd line. In 2014 they kicked atrociously and most likley would have won if mayne and Ballantyne had kicked more like they usually do.

As for St Kilda, they went very close to winning a GF. And the Saints had a better fwd line than Collingwood. So its disingenuous to say that the Saints fwd line didn't include enough firepower.

And with all of your examples, the midfields were outstanding. So far ahead of melbourne's its not funny. And they all got to grand finals. You can't put the cart before the horse. You have to get the ball into the fwd line as the first step.

Your premise seems to be that we already have a decent midfield (or will have) and therefore need to focus on key forwards. Its a false premise and unproven.

Freo have a problem with movement into their forward line because they don't have targets. They hold the ball up looking for an option, they only have Pav and he's seen better days.

Hawthorn with our forward line wouldn't have won the flag, wouldn't have made top 4 and probably not the 8.

There is nowhere I have said we need to focus on key forwards, it seems we may have an opportunity to improve our forward line in this draft but only if the player is best available. I wouldn't be taking a mid just because they are a mid either.

We build the team is my premise, it's a bit different to those who want to build a midfield. We can keep building and developing our midfield and at the same time build other important parts of our team. It's not one or the other.

The good teams haven't found their top forwards later in the draft or as rookies, that's just not true.

Jnrmac has already outlined the issue with 'their role players are better than our role players' argument.

As for the best teams and where they get their forwards:

Kennedy with WC, Roughhead with Haw, Pavlich with Freo, and Stringer with the Dogs are dominant forwards taken in the top 10.

They have created functioning forward lines with their 1 talented forward, by finding role players (of varying talent) lower in the draft, or in trades, or FA.

Some of those are ancient...

Hawthorn have Roughead, and Gunston.

Freo have Pavlich and Taberner? Mundy kicked 10 goals... Mayne 28 as a 188cm HF.

WCE have Kennedy and Darling.

Sydney have Franklin and Tippett.

Richmond have Riewoldt and Vickery.

NM have Petrie, Brown, and Waite.

Dogs have Stringer and Crameri. Dickson plays a great deal taller than 184cm...

Adel have Walker, Jenkins and Lynch.

Gunston, Kennedy, Franklin, Waite, and Crameri are trades/FAs at ND29, 4, 5, FS, and a Rookie.

Roughead, Pavlich, Taberner, Mundy, Mayne, Darling, Tippett, Riewoldt, Vickery, Petrie, Brown, Stringer, Dickson, Jenkins, and Lynch are 2, 4, Rookie, 19, 40, 26, 32, 13, 8, 23, 47, 5, 57, Rookie, and 13.

Run the gamut a bit there...

Also interesting how some teams trade in their talls, or get by without high end talent there.

And to mirror - jnrmac's last line - it's not that we are accusing each other of reaching past talent for a mid or a tall - it is this notion that our midfield is locked and loaded and ready to go.

It isn't, and we know mids win flags - so all things being equal - the affirmative action of 'Best Available' must be toward a midfielder at both early selections.

Ive totally come to this ideal also...best avail.. Id reiterate a concern that rpfc illustrated a while back and that was the worry youd reach past a better mid to get a good fwd only because its perceived we are lame up front and the only way is to recruit a fwd ( who wont impact likely for 2-3 anyway )

I completely understand the premise on which your argument is based and in general would have to agree but I would like to point out that in the 2004 draft Clarkson stated the need for quality talls to his recruiting staff.

For want of a better term, they definitely 'reached' on Roughhead at pick 2 because they heard the tigers were keen at pick 4. They missed out and took Tambling who they thought was 'next best available' which left the hawks to snap up Franklin at pick 5.

Hawks had Franklin as top 3 but 'gambled' on tigers taking someone else at 4 once they 'missed out' on Roughead.

So in some cases it's definitely worth the gamble. Especially if there are no real standout mids. We will obviously leave this up to the recruiting staff to define.

BTW, the above scenario is fact as it came straight from the horses mouth.

Edit: iPhone autocorrect fixes..

Edited November 19, 20159 yr by DeeMfc

Jnrmac has already outlined the issue with 'their role players are better than our role players' argument.

As for the best teams and where they get their forwards:

Kennedy with WC, Roughhead with Haw, Pavlich with Freo, and Stringer with the Dogs are dominant forwards taken in the top 10.

They have created functioning forward lines with their 1 talented forward, by finding role players (of varying talent) lower in the draft, or in trades, or FA.

And to mirror - jnrmac's last line - it's not that we are accusing each other of reaching past talent for a mid or a tall - it is this notion that our midfield is locked and loaded and ready to go.

It isn't, and we know mids win flags - so all things being equal - the affirmative action of 'Best Available' must be toward a midfielder at both early selections.

Who says our midfield or any part of our team is locked and loaded, that would be a recipe for disaster to think that as would your call about best available being favoured towards a mid.

As for the role player argument, we are less than adequate in that department. Spin it any way you like...