So I came onto his post expecting to read about Clayton Oliver...I've just read a whole bunch of dribble about Cotchin, Deledio and Selwood.  

Sheesh.

1 hour ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Yes.

You're pointing out what the stats say and the accolades he's received.

That's all he ever does mate. Has 0 understanding of the game, or the context of those stats and awards.

He's the prototype armchair expert.

 

1 hour ago, Peter Griffen said:

Nathan Jones struggles with a tag and that is something he desperately needs to work on

Not completely his fault given he's been our one decent midfielder for the last 6 years.

 

So, can anyone on this forum tell me (and I'm sure other frustrated readers) anything about the progress of Clayton Oliver?

1 minute ago, stuie said:

As usual you take a simplistic look at things that will suit your agenda.

The fact is there's not a big enough difference in their key stats to clearly say one is way better. And no, numbers don't "usually go up", esepcially if you're talking about a 28 year old.

But aside from that, you're forgetting about context, as usual. As you said, Cotchin was in a "superior" team, meaning he had far more support, help with tags, better structures and coaching, more wins, all things that would help you perform better. Jones has almost identical stats over a longer period of time in a team where he has been the sole target of opposition midfields, has had 0 support, terrible coaching and far less wins.

On top of that, Cotchin (as many others have mentioned) is not much of a leader and there's no way in hell he would have been able to carry a club every week the way Jones has/does.

Also, you seem to be changing your argument to Cotchin is more "talented". No one will disagree with that, but that's not what you were saying. You were saying you would take him ahead of Jones, and there is no way in hell Cotchin would have done anywhere near as much in the red and blue as he has for the Tigers.

You yourself say Cotchin has been "disappointing over the last 3 years" which at 25 is the peak of his career, and at a time the Tigers were mean to be challenging. Clearly he has struggled with leadership impacting his game, whereas Jones has elevated his game since becoming captain.

Cotchin may be more naturally talented, but Jones has shown the type of leadership, heart, character and determination that you would want for a team in our situation.

But you know, if you're happy with a captain who by your own admission has been disappointing since becoming one then it shows how little understanding you actually have of the game.

 

Firstly, Jones played all of 2015 as a 27 year old.  Secondly, 28 is STILL in your primes as an AFL footballer.  It's peak prime.

While I agree that Cotchin has played in better teams the Tiges are still bog ordinary.  He hardly has this huge advantage when he's one of the first tagged every week.  Deledio is never in the trenches with him and Martin plays high half-forward with occasional forays into the middle.  They're still trying to improve their midfield.

Cotchin has made AA on the back of one brilliant season.  His team DID NOT play finals in the year he made AA.  Jones has never made the squad of 40.  

Yes, I did point out that Cotchin is more talented.  So what ?  He is.  That isn't "changing" a story, it's an observation.  One you say you share.

Seemingly stats don't matter when they don't favour your argument.  Imo, there IS enough of a difference to show who has had the better career to date.  It's not a huge difference, but virtually all the key stats favour Cotchin (virtually no difference in tackles).

Cotchin is a B+ footballer and Jones is a B+ footballer.  There's not a lot in it, but there's enough evidence on talent and stats for me to conclude one is better than the other.  Especially when Jones was a chump for the first 5 years of his career.  

I expressed a view that I'd take Cotchin ahead of Jones.  Big deal.  It's just MY opinion.  Your reply was "Wow.  You started out at least trying to use reason, now it's just getting silly."  It was a stupid reply.  But it was a reply befitting your standard contributions. 

I also agree that Jones offers intangibles from a captaincy point of view and he's improved his leadership over the last couple of years.  My opinion was based more on football.  The option to swap isn't realistic, so I didn't take captaincy into consideration when stating who I'd take.

sooo... Clayton anyone?

18 minutes ago, ProDee said:

Firstly, Jones played all of 2015 as a 27 year old.  Secondly, 28 is STILL in your primes as an AFL footballer.  It's peak prime.

While I agree that Cotchin has played in better teams the Tiges are still bog ordinary.  He hardly has this huge advantage when he's one of the first tagged every week.  Deledio is never in the trenches with him and Martin plays high half-forward with occasional forays into the middle.  They're still trying to improve their midfield.

Cotchin has made AA on the back of one brilliant season.  His team DID NOT play finals in the year he made AA.  Jones has never made the squad of 40.  

Yes, I did point out that Cotchin is more talented.  So what ?  He is.  That isn't "changing" a story, it's an observation.  One you say you share.

Seemingly stats don't matter when they don't favour your argument.  Imo, there IS enough of a difference to show who has had the better career to date.  It's not a huge difference, but virtually all the key stats favour Cotchin (virtually no difference in tackles).

Cotchin is a B+ footballer and Jones is a B+ footballer.  There's not a lot in it, but there's enough evidence on talent and stats for me to conclude one is better than the other.  Especially when Jones was a chump for the first 5 years of his career.  

I expressed a view that I'd take Cotchin ahead of Jones.  Big deal.  It's just MY opinion.  Your reply was "Wow.  You started out at least trying to use reason, now it's just getting silly."  It was a stupid reply.  But it was a reply befitting your standard contributions. 

I also agree that Jones offers intangibles from a captaincy point of view and he's improved his leadership over the last couple of years.  My opinion was based more on football.  The option to swap isn't realistic, so I didn't take captaincy into consideration when stating who I'd take.

So basically... blah blah blah... They're pretty much as good as each other but Jones is a better captain.

Got it.

You gave your opinion and I gave mine. Don't go having a sook because someone comments on your opinion when you post it on a discussion forum.

Sure stats matter, but they're only part of the story and you were completely ignoring context, leadership and performance in their career peaks rather than one decent year.

Give me Jones who does it week in week out over Cotchin who even by your admission has only had one good year.

 

It is ultra impressive how quickly he has changed his body shape... check out how pudgy he was in the first half of 2015 in TAC cup games , then check the latest MFC training pics.  The kid seems like a real workhorse, and once he got a sniff that he might be good enough to get drafted he grabbed it with both hands and went to another level.   Very exciting prospect.

2 hours ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

Hogan got plenty of wraps last year for kicking 44 goals and being third for contested marks in his first season.

If Jones was at Hawthorn he would be regarded as solid contributor in a team full of guns.

Hogan is a once-in-a-generation freak. That's why he is the only name you can come up.

Kidding yourself

14 minutes ago, The Song Formerly Known As said:

sooo... Clayton anyone?

can I say it's very odd how people can't seem to handle a conversation meandering slightly off course. When you are at the pub with your mates do you sometimes just go 'Everybody stop! We're not talking about the thing we started talking about! Go back!'

5 minutes ago, Curry & Beer said:

can I say it's very odd how people can't seem to handle a conversation meandering slightly off course. When you are at the pub with your mates do you sometimes just go 'Everybody stop! We're not talking about the thing we started talking about! Go back!'

Meandering= 1 page.

We are now into 3 pages of taking about Selwood and Cotchin in a thread marked, 'Clayton Oliver'.

16 hours ago, RalphiusMaximus said:

Cotchin has better skills than Jones, but he goes to pieces under pressure.  Jones has far more fight to him which is why he's so valued in our club.  He will always put up a fight. 

he certainly hasn't got better kicking skills, lucky to make 40 metres on a good day

9 minutes ago, stuie said:

So basically... They're pretty much as good as each other but Jones is a better captain.

Got it.

You gave your opinion and I gave mine. Don't go having a sook because someone comments on your opinion when you post it on a discussion forum.

Sure stats matter, but they're only part of the story and you were completely ignoring context, leadership and performance in their career peaks rather than one decent year.

Give me Jones who does it week in week out over Cotchin who even by your admission has only had one good year.

 

No, Cotchin is more talented and has performed at a better level over their careers.  Given the choice of both footballers I'd take the one who has performed better and has a higher ceiling.

You got caught out saying "Wow", etc. because you struggle to analyse basic concepts.  Other posters then have to waste time spoon feeding you until the penny drops.  You then complain that you're just expressing an "opinion".  But no, you were ridiculing another poster who was using sound judgment free of bias.

Let's look at another measure, i.e. Brownlow votes:

Cotchin already ranks 5th on Richmond's all time list with 100 (153 games).  Jones is doing quite well with 56 (201 games).  Cotchin is second on Richmond's all time list for average votes per game.  Jones ranks 36.

Cotchin has 19 BOG's.  Jones has 6.

Btw, Jones has also only had one A-grade season and his first 5 years were crud.  

By any measure Cotchin has been the better footballer, but you keep deluding yourself.

16 minutes ago, Curry & Beer said:

can I say it's very odd how people can't seem to handle a conversation meandering slightly off course. When you are at the pub with your mates do you sometimes just go 'Everybody stop! We're not talking about the thing we started talking about! Go back!'

Shockingly most people open up a thread to read about the subject topic and don't check threads 18 times a day to monitor every slight movement away from the topic at hand.

Clayton Oliver will make Jimmy Toumpas look like a z rated extra in some nondescpipt off world sports ad!

There... glad I've got that of my chest!

31 minutes ago, ProDee said:

No, Cotchin is more talented and has performed at a better level over their careers.  Given the choice of both footballers I'd take the one who has performed better and has a higher ceiling.

You got caught out saying "Wow", etc. because you struggle to analyse basic concepts.  Other posters then have to waste time spoon feeding you until the penny drops.  You then complain that you're just expressing an "opinion".  But no, you were ridiculing another poster who was using sound judgment free of bias.

Let's look at another measure, i.e. Brownlow votes:

Cotchin already ranks 5th on Richmond's all time list with 100 (153 games).  Jones is doing quite well with 56 (201 games).  Cotchin is second on Richmond's all time list for average votes per game.  Jones ranks 36.

Cotchin has 19 BOG's.  Jones has 6.

Btw, Jones has also only had one A-grade season and his first 5 years were crud.  

By any measure Cotchin has been the better footballer, but you keep deluding yourself.

Pro there is no need to go on.  You're arguing with Stuie, you've won and you won't educate him.

For what it's worth Jones was played out of position for much of Bailey's time.  Bailey thought he was too small to play midfield and so played him on a wing/flank.  Neeld played him in his rightful position and he flourished.

7 minutes ago, picket fence said:

Clayton Oliver will make Jimmy Toumpas look like a z rated extra in some nondescpipt off world sports ad!

There... glad I've got that of my chest!

I'm going to do my best not to take notice of how the Toump goes this year. I wish him the best and a great career, I just don't want to see it happening away from MFC.

As for Clayton Oliver, I'm not going to spend his career comparing him to Parish. I've already given myself enough angst doing that with Toump v Wines. 

These comparisons are irrelevant to the team out on the field each week playing for the MFC.  

Everything I've read from the training threads so far seems to be saying that not only is a beast of a competitor but he's got a nice burst of speed to break open games and his skills sound like they're better than I'd thought. Looks like a very solid all round package. Who to compare him with?  My mind kept wondering to Dangerfield when I first saw footage of him. Last year I thought the trac and Brayshaw were the surest midfield picks we'd had in this rebuild era. I'm feeling the same way about Oliver even though he came from so far back at the beginning of last year. Time will tell.

Run an eye over their 2014 stats when Jones was physically unhindered. He smashes Cotchin. 

If Jones' body is 100%, he is destined for his best season to date which will again surpass lego hair. No way known would I be swapping Jonesy for that vastly overrated plodder. Superior skills? 20 metre kicks and one two handball receives, maybe. I've rarely known a player to accumulate as many touches while causing so little damage. 

Cotchin shot out of the blocks early in his career but much like Murphy has regressed rather than taking the next step. Right now it's Jones every day of the week for me. 2016 is going to be his year.

 

Great to hear our boy Clayton is already looking the part at training (feeble attempt to get things back on track).

1 hour ago, demon-4-life said:

So I came onto his post expecting to read about Clayton Oliver...I've just read a whole bunch of dribble about Cotchin, Deledio and Selwood.  

Sheesh.

What is the name of this thread? I am with you D4L

 

Start another thread guys.

Cotchin was putrid, along with his team, in their 2014 final. His chance at redemption was their 2015 final and the exact same thing happened, despite weeks of tough-talking from the club.

That said, we haven't played finals in nearly a decade, so we're yet to see how our current team handles the pressure. What I do know is we've got a clear drafting strategy now (Oliver continues the trend); we're crafting a defensively-oriented and aggressive team.

Intimidation and pressure wins finals football; two criteria distinctly lacking on Richmond's list.

Edited January 25, 20169 yr by SaberFang

2 hours ago, ProDee said:

You do realise there's a reason for those stats and accolades ?  

At the age of 22 in 2010 Selwood won Geelong's B&F.  It was in the middle one of modern AFL history's greatest dynasties.  Have a look at the names in that side and how many games they played for the season.

Jones was a chump for the first 5 years of his career.  Yes, it didn't help playing for a rabble devoid of a strong senior group.  But I don't know in what parallel universe you can claim Jones to be Selwood's equal.  It's utter nonsense.

Yeh big fella I do. It's 'reasons' though. Not 'reason'. You're pretty much painting it black and white. And I refuse to.

Selwood is great. Jones is great.

One has been blessed with having a really easy path to reach his potential as a player, the other has had an enormously challenging one. 

Looking at each player in isolation, (without the stats and accolades) I honestly can't see what Selwood possesses that Jones doesn't. They both have a very similar skill set. Combative, competitive and contested ball winning machines. 

What would you say Selwood unequivocally possesses over Jones in any given attribute? Regardless of mother[censored] stats bro. Just imagine them playing. In your head.

 

 

 

Edited January 25, 20169 yr by stevethemanjordan

1 hour ago, Mach5 said:

Shockingly most people open up a thread to read about the subject topic and don't check threads 18 times a day to monitor every slight movement away from the topic at hand.

Agree. I'm still asking myself why did I have to scim over all that dribble and waste an hour of my life. I certainly don't feel any better for it.

If the posters in question think it is a topic worth discussing or debating, then start a thread for it and DON'T derail another one.

Edited January 25, 20169 yr by Wormburner

1 hour ago, P-man said:

Run an eye over their 2014 stats when Jones was physically unhindered. He smashes Cotchin. 

If Jones' body is 100%, he is destined for his best season to date which will again surpass lego hair. No way known would I be swapping Jonesy for that vastly overrated plodder. Superior skills? 20 metre kicks and one two handball receives, maybe. I've rarely known a player to accumulate as many touches while causing so little damage. 

Cotchin shot out of the blocks early in his career but much like Murphy has regressed rather than taking the next step. Right now it's Jones every day of the week for me. 2016 is going to be his year.

 

Great to hear our boy Clayton is already looking the part at training (feeble attempt to get things back on track).

Talk about cherry picking.  Jones has been in the system and half of that time was rubbish.

Cotchin has his faults but is a vastly superior player.

40 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Yeh big fella I do. It's 'reasons' though. Not 'reason'. You're pretty much painting it black and white. And I refuse to.

Selwood is great. Jones is great.

One has been blessed with having a really easy path to reach his potential as a player, the other has had an enormously challenging one. 

Looking at each player in isolation, (without the stats and accolades) I honestly can't see what Selwood possesses that Jones doesn't. They both have a very similar skill set. Combative, competitive and contested ball winning machines. 

What would you say Selwood unequivocally possesses over Jones in any given attribute? Regardless of mother[censored] stats bro. Just imagine them playing. In your head.

 

 

 

He does everything better.  That's not a slight on Jones, btw.  He also kicks more goals.  The most Jones has kicked in a season is 16.  The most Selwood has kicked is 30.  I highly rate goal-kicking mids.

He especially reads the game better, is harder and makes better decisions.  And no, it doesn't mean Jones isn't hard too.  Viney is as hard as Selwood, Jones isn't. 

Just on Oliver the couple of games o saw the bushies play obviously he dominated. He definitely was alot pudgy compared to what he is now and even back then he had a good burst of speed when he could win a stoppage and just burst out of the contest. For a kid that was  carrying weight i was quite surprised and impressed he actually had decent pace.

Now that he is trimmed right down and toned up i expect his pace to really go up a notch now to the point where who knows maybe it might be Dangerfield like.. A 187cm 86kg Beast of a midfielder bursting out of packs is something i have seriously craved for a long time.

Edited January 25, 20169 yr by dazzledavey36