Trade Radio Discussion

[monoccular 17,413]

^^

Surely a draft is only ever as good as the recruiters and then the developers make it.

[Lucifers Hero 39,584]

Just a quick question.... many are saying that this year's is a weak draft, so what just exactly is considered a weak draft?

The reason I ask is that on looking at the top 10 finishers in this year's Brownlow voting only Dustin Martin (at #3) and Dangerfield (at #10) were top 10 draft picks. The rest were Fyfe (the winner) #20, Priddis #31 in the rookie draft after being overlooked in 3 or 4 previous National Drafts, Sam Mitchell #36, Kennedy #40 (Father Son), Hannebery #30, Mundy #19, Ward #19 and Goldstein #37.

If this is something that is repeated over multiple Brownlows (I haven't checked all, but I'm sure this year is probably not an exception), then surely the idea of a weak draft is a bit of a furphy.

Todd Viney and Jason Taylor agree with you: http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/2015-10-10/taylor-optimistic-about-talent-pool

“I think in certain circles it’s questioned, but it’s pretty similar to most years. It might be a bit more shallow, but I still feel confident that we’ll be able to get some players at the back end.”

Interesting article - gives good insights into how our team look at the draftees and what we do behind the scenes. In reading the article it looks likely we are going to take pick 6 to the draft table!

From what we supporters know so far there does not seem to be a 'Big Fish'. So using pick 6 sits ok with me.

I would rather go after the likes of O'Meara or Prestia next year when we know their recovery from current injuries. There is no reason for us to take the injury risk, especially, as 'Whispering Jack' has said elsewhere, there is some chance they wouldn't get on the park for part of next year. We have nothing to lose and everything to gain by waiting a year.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Lucifer's Hero

[dee-luded 2,959]

Dee-luded. Much the way of my thinking too

With the depth that the Hawks had and have they could afford the 'risk' with Burgoyne and they certainly won that lottery

They also tried with that huge flawed talented indigenous guy from WA ? another Garlett - that turned out a huge fail but despite that they didn't turn a hair. Depth again prevailed but had it worked out - wow!

I would think at our stage we need to be at least moderately conservative and certainly not speculative (though a we all know too well, high picks are speculative too)

Thanks to all who have answered my questions re JO and DP injuries.

.... they've been topping up a strong club, since well before the Stewie Dew brain child. he won them another flag. always was a favourite of mine to. as was s burgoyne.

what we really need is a dad player,,, a father figure, a guy that even chunk jones will look up to in admiration. The type Josh Kennedy.. if we had JK, & chunk for next season, & perhaps got one other leader, say ,el Pres', at the end of 2016... IMO we would be looking great for the ongoing development of our young, the Vineys, Brayshaws, Petraccas, Hogans, Salems, etc.

Edited October 10, 2015 by dee-luded

[dee-luded 2,959]

^^

Surely a draft is only ever as good as the recruiters and then the developers make it.

& the club, its existing people & structures... & the nicest people sometimes make the worst developers, maybe we need off field, to look at this possibility.

[Redleg 40,828]

How disappointing is it, that the club that started the Irish Experiment, doesn't even seem to bother anymore?

Latest two Irish boys have signed with the Swans as International Rookies.

[S.R.J 418]

How disappointing is it, that the club that started the Irish Experiment, doesn't even seem to bother anymore?

Latest two Irish boys have signed with the Swans as International Rookies.

I can see why we haven't bothered for a while as we are trying to develop our current list and don't have the time to try and develop the Irish lads. Would be good to get another Jim Stynes.

[deanox 9,897]

And it's DemonOX bezel get it right!!!

Deanox is a distant relation!

We don't even look the same!

[beelzebub 23,313]

I can see why we haven't bothered for a while as we are trying to develop our current list and don't have the time to try and develop the Irish lads. Would be good to get another Jim Stynes.

i don't see how one precludes the other

[S.R.J 418]

i don't see how one precludes the other

Very true. But maybe we haven't looked at signing an international rookie is that we need to sort our own house out before we invite others in. We are rebuilding from top to bottom and don't have the time....this is my thought but hey i could be completely off the mark.

[Ted Lasso 19,284]

How disappointing is it, that the club that started the Irish Experiment, doesn't even seem to bother anymore?

Latest two Irish boys have signed with the Swans as International Rookies.

I think it's probably just the way things have worked out, I do wonder if our dire on field position has forced us to look more for Aaron Vandenberg types to try and have an impact right away rather than take a chance on someone who may take a long period of time to develop

[ChaserJ 5,005]

Just a quick question.... many are saying that this year's is a weak draft, so what just exactly is considered a weak draft?

The reason I ask is that on looking at the top 10 finishers in this year's Brownlow voting only Dustin Martin (at #3) and Dangerfield (at #10) were top 10 draft picks. The rest were Fyfe (the winner) #20, Priddis #31 in the rookie draft after being overlooked in 3 or 4 previous National Drafts, Sam Mitchell #36, Kennedy #40 (Father Son), Hannebery #30, Mundy #19, Ward #19 and Goldstein #37.

If this is something that is repeated over multiple Brownlows (I haven't checked all, but I'm sure this year is probably not an exception), then surely the idea of a weak draft is a bit of a furphy.

This year it's less about the quality at the top end. If the northern academy boys were open access, we'd be talking up the top end of the draft, they are very good.

It's the 15-30 range in particular that has more question marks than previous years. Typically clubs would expect to be pretty happy with players available in this range will become good AFL players. The start to midpoint of the 2nd round this year there's far less confidence about how solid this group is. There may be good players, but less certainty.

A good draft crop generally has about 50 guys you could project as being very good - good AFL players, this year, there's around 30 (maybe 40) before you might really be taking a punt.

[Macca 16,918]

The best time to think outside the box is when you are down and out (or on your way up) ... way back when we conducted the Irish experiment, we were hardly in a position of strength. We had gone from being a complete basket case ('77 - '81) to the next mediocre level (8 or 9 wins) when the club decided to expand it's recruiting policy.

In fact, the club withstood quite a deal of ridicule for quite some time until Wight and Stynes started playing regularly and well. It was a brave move and for once, we were the innovators. The credit we then received never matched the previous ridicule that came our way - but that's how things work.

[JV7 2,350]

Very true. But maybe we haven't looked at signing an international rookie is that we need to sort our own house out before we invite others in. We are rebuilding from top to bottom and don't have the time....this is my thought but hey i could be completely off the mark.

Agreed... We couldn't develop top junior footballers in Toumpas, Morton then top 20 picks in Blease,Strauss,Maric.... The list goes on. What hope would we have developing a foreigner

[S.R.J 418]

Agreed... We couldn't develop top junior footballers in Toumpas, Morton then top 20 picks in Blease,Strauss,Maric.... The list goes on. What hope would we have developing a foreigner

exactly. Get our [censored] together and develop our talent then go looking for the next Jimmy Stynes.

[jumbo returns 6,737]

Agreed... We couldn't develop top junior footballers in Toumpas, Morton then top 20 picks in Blease,Strauss,Maric.... The list goes on. What hope would we have developing a foreigner

Please realise that the Irish boys had more drive, altruism, competitiveness and desire than Blease, Gysberts, Morton, etc.

[Bonkers 994]

How disappointing is it, that the club that started the Irish Experiment, doesn't even seem to bother anymore?

Latest two Irish boys have signed with the Swans as International Rookies.

International Scouting & recruiting uses a lot of resources both monetary & personel. We simply don't have those at the moment in my opinion. The Irish experiment which resulted in recruiting Wight & Stynes was bank rolled by Rupert Murdoch & overseen by Ron Barassi. They are two assets that aren't around the club anymore. We'd need significant increases in revenue to get involved again in international recruiting.

[Macca 16,918]

Agreed... We couldn't develop top junior footballers in Toumpas, Morton then top 20 picks in Blease,Strauss,Maric.... The list goes on. What hope would we have developing a foreigner

That was then - this is now.

Besides which those players may not have been any better with the best development programs in the world. In my opinion they were just decent or top juniors and that was it.

There's any number of 17/18 year old footballers who never get any better after that age - why? No one really knows but we could just put it down to "That's how things work" ... and it's not just at our club either, every club goes through the same issue.

Those wanting a definitive answer are clutching at straws or just need someone or something to blame.

exactly. Get our [censored] together and develop our talent then go looking for the next Jimmy Stynes.

Part of getting our act together is taking risks - sit on your hands and you'll get nowhere.

Roos and co. have been thinking outside the box unlike the previous regimes who were draft obsessed.

[stuie 7,374]

That was then - this is now.

Besides which those players may not have been any better with the best development programs in the world. In my opinion they were just decent or top juniors and that was it.

There's any number of 17/18 year old footballers who never get any better after that age - why? No one really knows but we could just put it down to "That's how things work" ... and it's not just at our club either, every club goes through the same issue.

Those wanting a definitive answer are clutching at straws or just need someone or something to blame.

Part of getting our act together is taking risks - sit on your hands and you'll get nowhere.

Roos and co. have been thinking outside the box unlike the previous regimes who were draft obsessed.

Maia Westrupp.

[Macca 16,918]

Maia Westrupp.

There's hits and misses stuie ... it's not a perfect world. What did Westrupp cost us in real terms?

Look at the money, time, patience, coaching et al that clubs put into a top end draft pick - those sort of players will always get more time because they were top juniors - ruling a line through them too early is risky so the clubs persevere.

These sort of players can often be very costly in real terms if that player is a bust.

Again, that's just how things work. Nothing is going to change because that's how the system works ... my answer - change the system to get better results. Raise the draft age.

.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Macca

[stuie 7,374]

There's hits and misses stuie ... it's not a perfect world. What did Westrupp cost us in real terms?

Look at the money, time, patience, coaching et al that clubs put into a top end draft pick - those sort of players will always get more time because they were top juniors - ruling a line through them too early is risky so the clubs persevere.

Again, that's just how things work.

Exactly. And we're at a point where we can't afford too many misses, so we're minimizing our risk, hence no international rookies.

[Macca 16,918]

Exactly. And we're at a point where we can't afford too many misses, so we're minimizing our risk, hence no international rookies.

I have a different view - what you see as high risk I see as low risk ... it's like boundary hugging football under Neeld - high risk in my view but many here saw it as low risk.

I like to change things up anytime - we're seen as a club that lacks innovation, drive and ambition. We're not trend-setters and we can be.

I actually believe that Roos and co are taking us in a different direction - our recruiting strategy is different to how it once was and that's at least a step in the right direction.

[rjay 24,866]

Exactly. And we're at a point where we can't afford too many misses, so we're minimizing our risk, hence no international rookies.

Agree with you on this one 'stuie', every move we make at the moment must be calculated. It's why we couldn't afford to take a chance on someone like Bennell for instance.

[monoccular 17,413]

How disappointing is it, that the club that started the Irish Experiment, doesn't even seem to bother anymore?

Latest two Irish boys have signed with the Swans as International Rookies.

I can see why we haven't bothered for a while as we are trying to develop our current list and don't have the time to try and develop the Irish lads. Would be good to get another Jim Stynes.

i don't see how one precludes the other

Very true. But maybe we haven't looked at signing an international rookie is that we need to sort our own house out before we invite others in. We are rebuilding from top to bottom and don't have the time....this is my thought but hey i could be completely off the mark.

As I recall we were still a bit if a basket case when we recruited Jimma and Sean.......and they turned out to be just fantastic choices.

Maybe our Irish spotters haven't ranked anyone high enough - those two did set the bar pretty high.

Are there salary cap issues with international rookies - including accommodation and relocation costs.? Maybe Sideney can absorb those in their COLA and no doubt other 'special concessions' from the AFL. And maybe Sideney can afford more even if these costs are not in the cap.

[JV7 2,350]

That was then - this is now.

Besides which those players may not have been any better with the best development programs in the world. In my opinion they were just decent or top juniors and that was it.

There's any number of 17/18 year old footballers who never get any better after that age - why? No one really knows but we could just put it down to "That's how things work" ... and it's not just at our club either, every club goes through the same issue.

Those wanting a definitive answer are clutching at straws or just need someone or something to blame.

I understand in the present time we might be able to take on one of these project players but in the last 7-8 years we haven't been well equipped enough to do it. On our development I'd seriously struggle to find any side in this day & age where recruiters rarely get it wrong have had so many wasted top 20 picks. Yes out of the 10 or so picks yours always going to have 2-3 that won't quiet make it but to have so many not developed I find hard to believe the club aren't largely responsible.

Edited October 11, 2015 by JV7

[rpfc 28,261]

I understand in the present time we might be able to take on one of these project players but in the last 7-8 years we haven't been well equipped enough to do it. On our development I'd seriously struggle to find any side in this day & age where recruiters rarely get it wrong have had so many wasted top 20 picks. Yes out of the 10 or so picks yours always going to have 2-3 that won't quiet make it but to have so many not developed I find hard to believe the club aren't largely responsible.

I can believe it.

We drafted poorly.

Development doesn't 'make a player' just improves what is there.

With our picks, there was not much there.

At all.