A tale of two clubs

[Demonsone 2,032]

It angers & frustrates me, since the failed merger Hawks are looking at possible winning their 4th flag & 3 in a row, huge profits & 80 k membership....

Our club just couldn't move on & continued to take a band aid approach & be run so poorly & butchered so many early picks & sees frustrated supporters celebrating 7 wins....

I'm sickened to death attending mates BBQ watching their team win flags each yr!!!!!

Edited September 25, 2015 by Hogan2014

[DemonOX 8,779]

Please for god sake don't bring this up.

This is what nightmares are made of.

[Demonsone 2,032]

Please for god sake don't bring this up.

This is what nightmares are made of.

It's reality

[Sir Why You Little 36,955]

There is only one way to build the club back up

Properly.

Tough and shrewd drafting.

Freo haven't drafted a fed line. Mids can only do so much...

[Ricky P 757]

10 - 15 years ago Hawthorn were a club down the bottom with not many fans. Now they are possibly the best side ever and have a massive membership. Hawthorn shows that it's possible and are a cause for hope, not despair. Rather than worry about how well Hawthorn are going, how about we knock them off their perch?

[Demonsone 2,032]

Whilst Hawks United their supporter base & put long term plans in place like waverley etc .. We waited on a white knight to save us , turned down Olympic park/ now Lexus .. Watched another club jump on it....engaged with a tennis player to be our CEO then gave it to a snake oil salesman Along with an ex coach of freo a who almost buried our club!

[Demon Disciple 12,063]

10 - 15 years ago Hawthorn were a club down the bottom with not many fans. Now they are possibly the best side ever and have a massive membership. Hawthorn shows that it's possible and are a cause for hope, not despair. Rather than worry about how well Hawthorn are going, how about we knock them off their perch?

The Hawks have a massive membership because they were so successful during the 80's that tonnes of people barracked for them, now the next generation are enjoying similar success.

We'll never have such supporter numbers because we have been so unsuccessful for so long. In fact the majority of our members would be aging given most started supporting the club during it's period of dominance over half a century ago.

[P-man 13,366]

10 - 15 years ago Hawthorn were a club down the bottom with not many fans. Now they are possibly the best side ever and have a massive membership. Hawthorn shows that it's possible and are a cause for hope, not despair. Rather than worry about how well Hawthorn are going, how about we knock them off their perch?

This.

In 2004, Hawthorn finished second last, third last for crowds (28K), and a modest 31K membership.

10 years on they are a juggernaut.

Instead of wishing and whining, let's follow their example. And hopefully surpass them.

Edited September 25, 2015 by P-man

[Wadda We Sing 10,685]

10 - 15 years ago Hawthorn were a club down the bottom with not many fans. Now they are possibly the best side ever and have a massive membership. Hawthorn shows that it's possible and are a cause for hope, not despair. Rather than worry about how well Hawthorn are going, how about we knock them off their perch?

The day will come when we beat them in a final....the day will come.

[rjay 24,852]

10 - 15 years ago Hawthorn were a club down the bottom with not many fans. Now they are possibly the best side ever and have a massive membership. Hawthorn shows that it's possible and are a cause for hope, not despair. Rather than worry about how well Hawthorn are going, how about we knock them off their perch?

As I posted in another thread...

Hawthorn have had a huge supporter base that just needed to be tapped and they did it.

Don't undersell the value of their premierships in the 70's & 80's to their current membership.

The draft and salary cap had less to do with their rise than some good work from Ian Dicker to unite the club and tap the fan base, some good decisions such as the Clarkson one, some luck with getting a PP in a good draft, some poor decisions at Freo.

...and probably the big 2 ones in helping them stay on top; the introduction of the new clubs and their draft concessions coinciding with Free Agency.

[Guest]

Hawthorn didn't 'happen' over night.
When you look at Hawthorn pre 1997, they were about equal with us in regards to supporter numbers (at least in regards to the surveys that were published). This despite the fact that they won flags and played in 7 straight grand finals with teams that had superstars on every line.
Why is it only now that they have turned into arguably the biggest club in Victoria? Fat Ed would cringe at that comment but look at where his club has been the last 40 years vs. the Hawks and it's not even close.
The reason is because for a VERY long time, they did the hard yards. Before they were able to generate the money they do now, they grew their own talent. They have been administratively stable. Besides Jeffrey K's reign of terror, things have always been done in a fairly understated way at Hawthorn but they just get done.
After Brian Coleman and the merger, how many presidents have the Hawks had? 3 (Dicker, Kennett and now Newbold). I would wager they have had about as many CEO's. In the same time they have had 3 full time coaches as well (I don't count Donald McDonald).
When Clarko had the knives out for him in 2005, those in the club with actual football nous didn't listen to the nuff nuffs in the outer (or their nuff nuff president). Upon seeing that the curve was ticking upwards, they held firm and that's why they are where they are today.

[SaberFang 7,151]

[Little Goffy 14,442]

Melbourne's problems pre-date even the draft. I choose to take some solace in that we now appear to have coherent professionals in leadership positions, a much improved trade and draft performance, and are steadily clawing our way back to respectability.

Personally (setting aside the merger point of departure) I think the real Hawks contrast would have to be with the Kangaroos. 2 premierships, a runner up, and 8 consecutive finals appearances from 1993-2000, and they were still an off-field basketcase that has barely survived, and remains dubious despite routine finals showings. THAT is a contrast with Hawthorn.

There's another two clubs in Victoria that have eminently failed to turn periods of prominence, and the presence of outright stars of the game, into lasting support and standing - St Kilda and Footscray. I'm glad that at least the Bulldogs have a hopeful outlook for the near future, but St Kilda is in real trouble if their 2015 hype turns out to be a false dawn. And I for one still believe that the Saints haven't even finished their decline yet, never mind starting to climb back up. Trouble brews.

For all that we have had a disappointing time as a club (for most of the past 50 years) somehow we have a very, very resilient supporter culture. For Melbourne supporters, even losing means something worth turning up for. We are the last of the great, loyal club cultures, 'we' mean something.

I for one will be fascinated to see what happens when that resilient, determined supporter culture finally gets matched with a capable corporate unit and a winning football department.

[Adam The God 30,112]

Melbourne's problems pre-date even the draft. I choose to take some solace in that we now appear to have coherent professionals in leadership positions, a much improved trade and draft performance, and are steadily clawing our way back to respectability.

Personally (setting aside the merger point of departure) I think the real Hawks contrast would have to be with the Kangaroos. 2 premierships, a runner up, and 8 consecutive finals appearances from 1993-2000, and they were still an off-field basketcase that has barely survived, and remains dubious despite routine finals showings. THAT is a contrast with Hawthorn.

There's another two clubs in Victoria that have eminently failed to turn periods of prominence, and the presence of outright stars of the game, into lasting support and standing - St Kilda and Footscray. I'm glad that at least the Bulldogs have a hopeful outlook for the near future, but St Kilda is in real trouble if their 2015 hype turns out to be a false dawn. And I for one still believe that the Saints haven't even finished their decline yet, never mind starting to climb back up. Trouble brews.

For all that we have had a disappointing time as a club (for most of the past 50 years) somehow we have a very, very resilient supporter culture. For Melbourne supporters, even losing means something worth turning up for. We are the last of the great, loyal club cultures, 'we' mean something.

I for one will be fascinated to see what happens when that resilient, determined supporter culture finally gets matched with a capable corporate unit and a winning football department.

Great post, mate. Completely agree. I've said it a number of times, but the amount of [censored] our supporters cop for being fair-weathered, yet in a sustained period of [censored]ness, we're still here.

The example of our potential that I often cite is the 2004 (?) home & away game against West Coast at the 'G. For some reason I always remember the crowd that day. We had 36,000 people there. We were playing well, despite (I think) losing that game.

I'm confident we can be a powerhouse again, we just need the right people in the right positions of power. As you point out, we seem to have some of that now.

Which brings me to - Peter Jackson, please sign a five year deal. Thank you.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Dr John Dee

[Demonsone 2,032]

Hawthorn didn't 'happen' over night.

When you look at Hawthorn pre 1997, they were about equal with us in regards to supporter numbers (at least in regards to the surveys that were published). This despite the fact that they won flags and played in 7 straight grand finals with teams that had superstars on every line.

Why is it only now that they have turned into arguably the biggest club in Victoria? Fat Ed would cringe at that comment but look at where his club has been the last 40 years vs. the Hawks and it's not even close.

The reason is because for a VERY long time, they did the hard yards. Before they were able to generate the money they do now, they grew their own talent. They have been administratively stable. Besides Jeffrey K's reign of terror, things have always been done in a fairly understated way at Hawthorn but they just get done.

After Brian Coleman and the merger, how many presidents have the Hawks had? 3 (Dicker, Kennett and now Newbold). I would wager they have had about as many CEO's. In the same time they have had 3 full time coaches as well (I don't count Donald McDonald).

When Clarko had the knives out for him in 2005, those in the club with actual football nous didn't listen to the nuff nuffs in the outer (or their nuff nuff president). Upon seeing that the curve was ticking upwards, they held firm and that's why they are where they are today.

Hawthorn didn't 'happen' over night.

When you look at Hawthorn pre 1997, they were about equal with us in regards to supporter numbers (at least in regards to the surveys that were published). This despite the fact that they won flags and played in 7 straight grand finals with teams that had superstars on every line.

Why is it only now that they have turned into arguably the biggest club in Victoria? Fat Ed would cringe at that comment but look at where his club has been the last 40 years vs. the Hawks and it's not even close.

The reason is because for a VERY long time, they did the hard yards. Before they were able to generate the money they do now, they grew their own talent. They have been administratively stable. Besides Jeffrey K's reign of terror, things have always been done in a fairly understated way at Hawthorn but they just get done.

After Brian Coleman and the merger, how many presidents have the Hawks had? 3 (Dicker, Kennett and now Newbold). I would wager they have had about as many CEO's. In the same time they have had 3 full time coaches as well (I don't count Donald McDonald).

When Clarko had the knives out for him in 2005, those in the club with actual football nous didn't listen to the nuff nuffs in the outer (or their nuff nuff president). Upon seeing that the curve was ticking upwards, they held firm and that's why they are where they are today.

Well said.... We can't change the past but can learn from it...... My only concern is successful clubs can now continue to attract quality free agents & continue to maintain their dominance & keep them in the premiership clock..... Edited September 25, 2015 by Hogan2014

[Middymalt 244]

10 - 15 years ago Hawthorn were a club down the bottom with not many fans. Now they are possibly the best side ever and have a massive membership. Hawthorn shows that it's possible and are a cause for hope, not despair. Rather than worry about how well Hawthorn are going, how about we knock them off their perch?

They won nearly half a dozen flags in the 80s they always had support, it's not going to be a good look when chip gets his medal next week , not for the club the us or the AFL it's a very predictable competition

[greenmachine 21]

same here so over the hawkes but if it was the dees you would want it never to end

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

This.

In 2004, Hawthorn finished second last, third last for crowds (28K), and a modest 31K membership.

10 years on they are a juggernaut.

Instead of wishing and whining, let's follow their example. And hopefully surpass them.

They drafted better than us and were probably lucky as to when they had high draft picks compared to say when drafted Sylvia and McLean.

[joeboy 3,163]

I'm old enough to remember the 60's when we 'owned' the MCG and a banner appeared at every game, extending the full length of the front of the outer grandstand , as the Southern Stand is referred to now, and it read:

Forever forward dashing Demons, the greatest ever exponents of perfection football, and masters of the MCG.

This banner was symbolic of all we were once ..a brilliant team, the sole occupants of the 'G, arrogant, and successful.

I still dream ( in 3 word phases ) of those days.

[Redleg 40,815]

We can't afford mistakes in drafting and trading and need a good run with injuries.

We do however have a fairly good base of young players to launch our revival with.

[P-man 13,366]

They drafted better than us and were probably lucky as to when they had high draft picks compared to say when drafted Sylvia and McLean.

Their build was textbook. Ours...was not.

We are two years into ours and things are looking okay this time.

I prefer not to buy into theories that place restrictions on how much the club can grow. Mistakes were made and opportunities were missed. We are still Melbourne. We carry the name of the goddamn city. Once the biggest club in the land. There are always new generations of football fans to attract.

The sky is the limit as far as I'm concerned. It may take a while, but it's possible. Call me naive, but I get the feeling Bartlett and Jsckson think the same way.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Their build was textbook. Ours...was not.

We are two years into ours and things are looking okay this time.

I agree, this build feels like it's being mounted on solid foundations.

However, I probably thought that last time in around 2010.

[dpositive 1,663]

I always remember the promised 5 year plan, then 3 years later the next 5 year plan, was announced. This happened every 3 years never quite reaching the targets.

I am hoping that we can maybe present a 3 year plan and finish the job.

The list we have certainly has great potential and needs to be managed over the full season with a better run of injuries.

[Little Goffy 14,442]

We can't afford mistakes in drafting and trading and need a good run with injuries.

We do however have a fairly good base of young players to launch our revival with.

A few mistakes or failures along the way are fine so long as they aren't allowed to linger (Michael Newton style) and the overall churn of good decisions keeps building.

Have to remember that Hawthorn made a few proper draft clangers, Mitch Thorp being the top contender. Geelong absolutely blew a couple of drafts around 2002-2004, but had possibly the greatest draft run of any club ever in 1999/2000

This is why Geelong have a great big haul of players retiring now, and not so many experienced top players left to take up the senior leadership. They have just 4 players in the 25-28 age range; Selwood, Hawkins, Dawson Simpson, and Mitch Clark. So mistakes were made, but not enough to stop them becoming one of the all time great teams.

As for Melbourne, well, we had an appallingly barren run for a long time, that is well documented. Barely a draft brought us more than one long-term player, for almost a decade. Things began to turn a little when we managed to get Hogan & Viney in 2012, and the Salem/Tyson double-up 'trick' in 2013.

But a quick look at our 2014 draft is mindblowing. By next season, all seven of our selections may well be in our best 22. Even if it doesn't come to such phenomenal results, there will be more players on the field for us aged 18-24 than aged 25 or more. As for on the full list... not even one quarter will have had a 25th birthday.

The only other club making any success out of such a young list profile is the Bulldogs... if only we could get our hands on the kind of youth development expertise that they had, or which Geelong put to work when making the most of their superdrafts.. oh... wait... who's that softly spoken guy with the beard that's been seen around the club lately?

"Everything is going to plan"

[Adam The God 30,112]

A few mistakes or failures along the way are fine so long as they aren't allowed to linger (Michael Newton style) and the overall churn of good decisions keeps building.

Have to remember that Hawthorn made a few proper draft clangers, Mitch Thorp being the top contender. Geelong absolutely blew a couple of drafts around 2002-2004, but had possibly the greatest draft run of any club ever in 1999/2000

This is why Geelong have a great big haul of players retiring now, and not so many experienced top players left to take up the senior leadership. They have just 4 players in the 25-28 age range; Selwood, Hawkins, Dawson Simpson, and Mitch Clark. So mistakes were made, but not enough to stop them becoming one of the all time great teams.

As for Melbourne, well, we had an appallingly barren run for a long time, that is well documented. Barely a draft brought us more than one long-term player, for almost a decade. Things began to turn a little when we managed to get Hogan & Viney in 2012, and the Salem/Tyson double-up 'trick' in 2013.

But a quick look at our 2014 draft is mindblowing. By next season, all seven of our selections may well be in our best 22. Even if it doesn't come to such phenomenal results, there will be more players on the field for us aged 18-24 than aged 25 or more. As for on the full list... not even one quarter will have had a 25th birthday.

The only other club making any success out of such a young list profile is the Bulldogs... if only we could get our hands on the kind of youth development expertise that they had, or which Geelong put to work when making the most of their superdrafts.. oh... wait... who's that softly spoken guy with the beard that's been seen around the club lately?

"Everything is going to plan"

One of my favourite posters. Another ripper. Agree with everything you've said. The one caveat I would include is in regards to our 2014 draft selections and all of them becoming best 22 players next year. The early signs are that we've done amazingly well with that '14 draft, but as always, some of these guys will stagnate, drop off, get injured and just generally never quite make it. The next two draft/trade periods are still vital and if we really get our selections right (preferably adding players in that 22-24 demographic), we'll be really well placed for the next 5-10 years.