So who is responsible for the 8 goal to 1 deficits we have seen in the last 3 weeks?

We are apparently....

I think our best chance is to just hope that Goodwin is one of those good coaches. because I don't think Neeld was, and I don't think Roos is. In the case of Mark Neeld though, he actually set this club back, whereas Roos isn't setting us back, he just isn't a very good game day coach.

I think our best chance is to just hope that Goodwin is one of those good coaches. because I don't think Neeld was, and I don't think Roos is. In the case of Mark Neeld though, he actually set this club back, whereas Roos isn't setting us back, he just isn't a very good game day coach.

I think it has more to do with the chess pieces Roos has at his disposal to move around the board.

Some are just Damaged goods...

I think some of the posts laying the blame entirely at the feet of Neeld and Roos is fairly symptomatic of where we go wrong as a club.
While the head coach does need to wear some of the heat when a team is going badly, the broader organization does need to be looked at as well.
Was Neeld going to be much of a coach with the right support network around him? We will never know but how he handled the situation he found himself in was not productive. His naivety in regards to how big a stick he could wield wasn't a great sign that he had the emotional intelligence to be a great senior coach.
I will say though that Neeld was also let down badly by the organization in that they gave him a job that he was never going to succeed at. He was surrounded by a bunch of blokes on the coaching panel, besides Craigy, with little experience or bad track records elsewhere. He was also backed by a CEO and a certain ex player who appointed him based mostly on politics and who have also since proven themselves incompetent in their respective roles. Even if he was competent, what chance did he have when you look at how fractured the club was?
The reason why he wasn't allowed to see out even half of his contract was due to the fact that he was doing more harm than good.
We then look at Paul Roos. One could not say that he isn't surrounded by experience. Brett Allison, Jade Rawlings, Simon Goodwin, Brenton McCartney, George Stone (when he was around) all have significant experience at club level or have been head coaches themselves. Besides the bruhaha this week, how many own goals have we kicked in the last two years on an admin front? I mentioned about incompetence but the list of screw ups that occurred on a weekly basis boggled the mind. Sometimes I think we would have been better to send in Malcolm Tucker than Peter Jackson to sort the mess out.
When one looks at the off field stuff, one needs to wonder, with all the wealth of experience and nous off field then where does the blame lie? The truth is that as Old Dee has said, we just aren't very good. I remember some brave soul was on here earlier in the week and was suggesting we had a better list than the Bulldogs. That was ridiculous but we do have a fair few blokes who still wouldn't get a game anywhere else (and mightn't be a walk up starting 22 in the VFL).
Facts are: the coach, while more accountable than others, is not the be all and end all at a club. Others have gone into the cargo cult mentality that exists on these boards and at the club. To lay the blame solely at the feet of Roos just reinforces the savior mentality that we, and Carlton, have embraced with tragic consequences.
I've calmed down a bit in regards to the posts on here, I must say but I still back Roos strongly.

Edited August 28, 201510 yr by Colin B. Flaubert

There are many ways to skin a cat, and Neeld picked the wrong one by a mile. That was his biggest issue.

I don't think Neelds job was to come in & to win games off the bat... I suggest to you, that his job Was To start cleaning the list up, & trying to get the culture repaired. But that the very first job, was to rid the list of those who maintain the weak culture, after being taught it, from within it.

starting with the past leaders, & trying to change the leadership over to newbies, trying to shed the old leaders, & the also the leaders of poor attitudes. To try to get as close as possible, back to a fresh canvas, without blowing up the whole list.

he did this, but of co8urse he didn't get to finish, & the rebellion wa always on the cards doing this method of a fast & tough churn. He sent the fox into the hen house, & oh wasn't there a squabble.

........ but he upset the apple-cart; & this allows us to start to truly change things properly, after breaking up the old peer groups. And ridding the club of the worst apples, some were a surprise to us, but the show still must go on...

no point just treading water, as we did for the previous 10 years before Neeld, just teasing the supporters with good games here & there, down the bottom, back to finals, down the bottom again, & we couldn't develop a young player if we had our lives on the line.

the culture has been an issue since the mid to late 90's, & only got worse as our champions in Schwarta, Neita, Whelan, etc retired, exposing what was left as good time guys.

I'm waiting for the sequel "Roos v Denis Jones - the Facts"

It will make another riveting read.

denis jones wow what a great coach

Comparing Roos and Neeld is like comparing the moon to a tea pot.

I think the problem with this thread is the title which includes the words, "The Facts". There are plenty of opinions here, many of which may or may not be logical or fair, but it contains not that many facts and plenty of errors and omissions.

We've gone over this ground a number of times before on this forum so many would be familiar with my opinion that Mark Neeld was a much maligned person and a great deal of that was not justified and confected by those with other agendas at the club.

Unfortunately, it turned out that under the additional pressure, he wasn't a great match day coach. He got a bum rap in that walked into a club at a time when there was a political maelstrom happening which not only did not help his cause but put ithe club's recovery back 2 or 3 years.

We are now on the verge of much better times but we don't, as a team have sufficient depth to overcome situations such as the current one where we have had two of our major playmakers in Jones and Vince down on form (possibly injured) and the only other midfielders who could step into their shoes Tyson and vandenBerg out injured and Brayshaw and Viney getting tired after a long haul of a season and too young yet to have sufficient influence to make enough of a difference.

Roos, like Bailey and Neeld can only do so much with the material he has and I'm personally bemused at how our fans have blown up this slump we're going through into such a catastrophe. It's not enjoyable watching the fiascos of the past couple of weeks but we've taken steps forward this year and it's fairly obvious that we're building our team depth and starting to get more quality at the top.

I'm looking forward to 2016 under Roos with some more running players at his disposal, an additional forward and the jettisoning of a few players who have run their course and there's no reason why we can't be next year's Bulldogs.

I think it has more to do with the chess pieces Roos has at his disposal to move around the board.

Some are just Damaged goods...

And some are just No Good.

You mean like Mitch Clark and Chris Dawes?

You know, I don't think Neeld was a good coach, I just pointed out that what he was trying to do was not all that different to what Roos is trying to do, and that any progress we've up to this point is merely normalisation, not necessarily "improvement": with the list we've got, we'd probably be in the same situation irrespective of who is coaching us.

That's not to say our curve of improvement from here out won't be better under Roos.

Your continual quotes on normalisation are rubbish. .

Melbournes improvement is not based on normalisation because it is obvious from 3 years ago we were on a downward trend. If you look at any of the statistics in which you are claiming normalisation has occurred, you would rather see that it is improvement. "Normalisation" would not be happening if the team/list/board/coaching had not all changed, but this has led to completely different results ensuring improvement.

Normalisation is such a stupid term and it's a highlight of the continual negativity that is shown consistently from our supporters. Improvement is happening and Normalisation is the wrong term to discuss this. We were so far below normal that we have improved to reach a much more competitive level correct.

I think some of the posts laying the blame entirely at the feet of Neeld and Roos is fairly symptomatic of where we go wrong as a club.

While the head coach does need to wear some of the heat when a team is going badly, the broader organization does need to be looked at as well.

Was Neeld going to be much of a coach with the right support network around him? We will never know but how he handled the situation he found himself in was not productive. His naivety in regards to how big a stick he could wield wasn't a great sign that he had the emotional intelligence to be a great senior coach.

I will say though that Neeld was also let down badly by the organization in that they gave him a job that he was never going to succeed at. He was surrounded by a bunch of blokes on the coaching panel, besides Craigy, with little experience or bad track records elsewhere. He was also backed by a CEO and a certain ex player who appointed him based mostly on politics and who have also since proven themselves incompetent in their respective roles. Even if he was competent, what chance did he have when you look at how fractured the club was?

The reason why he wasn't allowed to see out even half of his contract was due to the fact that he was doing more harm than good.

We then look at Paul Roos. One could not say that he isn't surrounded by experience. Brett Allison, Jade Rawlings, Simon Goodwin, Brenton McCartney, George Stone (when he was around) all have significant experience at club level or have been head coaches themselves. Besides the bruhaha this week, how many own goals have we kicked in the last two years on an admin front? I mentioned about incompetence but the list of screw ups that occurred on a weekly basis boggled the mind. Sometimes I think we would have been better to send in Malcolm Tucker than Peter Jackson to sort the mess out.

When one looks at the off field stuff, one needs to wonder, with all the wealth of experience and nous off field then where does the blame lie? The truth is that as Old Dee has said, we just aren't very good. I remember some brave soul was on here earlier in the week and was suggesting we had a better list than the Bulldogs. That was ridiculous but we do have a fair few blokes who still wouldn't get a game anywhere else (and mightn't be a walk up starting 22 in the VFL).

Facts are: the coach, while more accountable than others, is not the be all and end all at a club. Others have gone into the cargo cult mentality that exists on these boards and at the club. To lay the blame solely at the feet of Roos just reinforces the savior mentality that we, and Carlton, have embraced with tragic consequences.

I've calmed down a bit in regards to the posts on here, I must say but I still back Roos strongly.

This is a good measured post. We are coming from pretty dark place and I feel OK with where we are heading.

I also think that Roos and Jackson make a good point re the aura of negativity. Compare the environment at the MFC over the past 7-8 to that of Hawthorn or Geelong and it's not difficult to imagine why the players have a fragile sense of belief. I'm not saying the players need a cuddle, but that we have an experienced coaching panel that is very capable of instilling behaviors that will get the most out of our list and that we are developing enough talent to be a decent side in the next few years.

As supporters we need to stop being so negative and back the current administration and coaching panel for two reasons:

1. We have a highly credentialed senior coach known for instilling culture surrounded by experienced well credentialed coaching panel and a coach in waiting that is not long out of the game and was effective at the EFC who is being set up to succeed.

2. This is the last roll of the dice. If the current administration and coaching panel does not bring some success then we will probably become the Tassie Tullamarine Demons.

This is a call to arms for us supporters to not be negative towards our own players. No more complaining about Watts dropping a contested mark or bemoaning a player hesitating before kicking along the boundary rather than look in board. Let the players know that we supporters will encourage good footy and effort and back the coaching group to instill the right habits and develop our list, team cohesion and game plan.

In summary our entire club has been infected with the MFCSS and we supporters must rid our self of the virus. We supporters are part of the problem and need to change our attitude. In round 22 v GWS I will roundhouse kick any supporter who does not bring a positive attitude to the game, in a feel good way.

Mark Neeld isn't exactly the barometer for success

I don't think Neelds job was to come in & to win games off the bat... I suggest to you, that his job Was To start cleaning the list up, & trying to get the culture repaired. But that the very first job, was to rid the list of those who maintain the weak culture, after being taught it, from within it.

starting with the past leaders, & trying to change the leadership over to newbies, trying to shed the old leaders, & the also the leaders of poor attitudes. To try to get as close as possible, back to a fresh canvas, without blowing up the whole list.

he did this, but of co8urse he didn't get to finish, & the rebellion wa always on the cards doing this method of a fast & tough churn. He sent the fox into the hen house, & oh wasn't there a squabble.

........ but he upset the apple-cart; & this allows us to start to truly change things properly, after breaking up the old peer groups. And ridding the club of the worst apples, some were a surprise to us, but the show still must go on...

no point just treading water, as we did for the previous 10 years before Neeld, just teasing the supporters with good games here & there, down the bottom, back to finals, down the bottom again, & we couldn't develop a young player if we had our lives on the line.

the culture has been an issue since the mid to late 90's, & only got worse as our champions in Schwarta, Neita, Whelan, etc retired, exposing what was left as good time guys.

I agree that was his job. I just think he went about it the wrong way. He ostracised the playing group before they had even played a game. Roos has been more gentle to start with but got the players on board before pushing. Needs approach lost the players and without them no good change was ever going to come.

I actually won't make a call on Neelds game day coaching or strategy, we never saw it as the players were never on side. He did start getting rid of dead wood though, but we also lost some I wish we hadn't.

I agree that was his job. I just think he went about it the wrong way. He ostracised the playing group before they had even played a game. Roos has been more gentle to start with but got the players on board before pushing. Needs approach lost the players and without them no good change was ever going to come.

I actually won't make a call on Neelds game day coaching or strategy, we never saw it as the players were never on side. He did start getting rid of dead wood though, but we also lost some I wish we hadn't.

Which ones ?

Ox on SEN said it was Neeld that wanted Toumpas and Viney who wanted Wines, would he know?

Ox on SEN said it was Neeld that wanted Toumpas and Viney who wanted Wines, would he know?

Exactly. The truth will never come out.

Roos was brought in to fix a list Neeld helped build.

Can you imagine what Neeld would do to a Roos built list?

Scary!!