I think your contribution definitely adds to the equation, but when we are an entity that is infiltrated by introverts, who play introverted footy, Houston we have a problem.

There is no way an introvert would do what a 19 year old Luke Hodge did to the Lions in their prime.

You could say Stephen Waugh was an introvert in a social sense, and you would be correct. But he had the eye-of-the-tiger, a win-at-all-costs approach, white-line fever who was happy to sledge a 7 foot man with red in his eyes and his right hand. But the difference is this, Waugh had extroverts (in Warne etc..) around him.

Finally, I am no NBA tragic, and would trip over Jordan in the street, but don't tell me he didn't have swagger, and supreme self-confidence.

Who ever said an introvert could not be confident? As I said, very misunderstood beings, often incredibly protective of what they hold dear, if that is their team or team mates then look out if you threaten them.

A balance is also always a good thing, I love Hogans swagger and love seeing it in the team, I just loath the thought of loosing the introverts and becoming a lopsided ego trip of a team.

Interesting OP. Two things:

- Thank god we have Brayshaw. The kid looks to be many things, but an introvert is not one of them. If Viney isn't the future captain of the club then Gus looks next in line to me.

Agree

But I maintain that the recent finger pointing at Jones isn't far short of disgraceful. Jones is not the problem with this club.

I agree, Jones isn't the problem with this club. But Jones wouldn't captain any other club. He was never my choice for captain, although in many respects, he was our only choice, if you can understand that. I picked Trengove for captain (ology pre-decision) which ultimately proved a mistake, but I maintain most, if not all selections were going to be a mistake anyway.

- I can accept that "speed kills us", but I can't accept that as an explanation for the first half massacre at the hands of Carlton. They aren't fast, be it leg speed or ball movement.

Come on. Have a look at their team line up. They went smaller and quicker. Jameson and Rowe matched up on the hulk and Dawes. Other than that, they had us covered easily for speed.

But we absolutely do need more run and dare. Kent and Petracca's return will be a good start.

...and Frost......100% agree.

It's quite simple... Win games of footy and the 'veil of negativity' ceases to exist. In actual fact I believe questioning the supporters positivity is offensive. Despite all the pain the team has dragged us through we are consistently the loudest and most passionate fans on match day. We aren't the ones on the field running around like pansys picking and choosing when they can be bothered showing pride in the jumper.

only the players on the field showings skills winning can lift the veil....

Come on. Have a look at their team line up. They went smaller and quicker. Jameson and Rowe matched up on the hulk and Dawes. Other than that, they had us covered easily for speed.

Who were their players that had us easily covered? Murphy? Carrazzo? Some of their younger brigade have some zip about them but when I think Carlton I don't think lightning fast. Even if they were/are quicker, that isn't what beat us on the weekend. I would agree it played a major part in the Dogs dismissing us to the tune of 98 points so I agree with you overall in that we are the slowest side, more the point, slowest midfield, in the league.

But we should have accounted for Carlton, and would have if the second half side showed up in the first half.

I am not having a go at you P-man.

I have read numerous comments about Petracca this year.

He has not played a single game yet at senior level be that VFL or AFL.

The signs look good but there is not guarantee he will be a star player.

Can we just wait and see before proclaiming him the greatest thing since slice bread.

I didn't even pump up his tyres. I merely mentioned his name as a useful asset in the future, which you would hope a number 2 draft pick whose hyped for his ability to break away from contests at speed will be. Recovery from injury not withstanding.

You need to stop seeking out sorrow mate. There's plenty that will find its way to you following this club. Looking forward to seeing young players is one of the few things we have left.

Who were their players that had us easily covered? Murphy? Carrazzo? Some of their younger brigade have some zip about them but when I think Carlton I don't think lightning fast. Even if they were/are quicker, that isn't what beat us on the weekend. I would agree it played a major part in the Dogs dismissing us to the tune of 98 points so I agree with you overall in that we are the slowest side, more the point, slowest midfield, in the league.

But we should have accounted for Carlton, and would have if the second half side showed up in the first half.

I didn't even pump up his tyres. I merely mentioned his name as a useful asset in the future, which you would hope a number 2 draft pick whose hyped for his ability to break away from contests at speed will be. Recovery from injury not withstanding.

You need to stop seeking out sorrow mate. There's plenty that will find its way to you following this club. Looking forward to seeing young players is one of the few things we have left.

You said Petracca,s return.

I was merely pointing out he has not started yet.

No. Yes and Yes

Who ever said an introvert could not be confident? As I said, very misunderstood beings, often incredibly protective of what they hold dear, if that is their team or team mates then look out if you threaten them.

A balance is also always a good thing, I love Hogans swagger and love seeing it in the team, I just loath the thought of loosing the introverts and becoming a lopsided ego trip of a team.

All I am saying, is that if you go to a place of extreme poverty with some UN goods (food etc.), the last thing you should be worried about is Michelle Bridges saying "watch the carbs" or Pete Evans saying "watch the legumes".

pTGR

Edited August 25, 201510 yr by TGR

Lol, now what we need at the club is more sledging of opponents?

Because that is definitely a sign of quality skills, team orientation, high fitness, and consistent alertness.

The important thing in any organization is the creation of a soul which is based on pride.

George S Patton

All very well to quote the Iron general but he also believed in re-incarnation and was possibly more than slightly insane.

All I am saying, is that if you go to a place of extreme poverty with some UN goods (food etc.), the last thing you should be worried about is Michelle Bridges saying "watch the carbs" or Pete Evans saying "watch the legumes".

pTGR

Lost me. Huh?

Lost me. Huh?

You are not alone Chris

Agree

I agree, Jones isn't the problem with this club. But Jones wouldn't captain any other club. He was never my choice for captain, although in many respects, he was our only choice, if you can understand that. I picked Trengove for captain (ology pre-decision) which ultimately proved a mistake, but I maintain most, if not all selections were going to be a mistake anyway.

Come on. Have a look at their team line up. They went smaller and quicker. Jameson and Rowe matched up on the hulk and Dawes. Other than that, they had us covered easily for speed.

...and Frost......100% agree.

Frost mmmmmmmmmmm!

I have been commenting here for 6 months or so after lurking for a year or more and have some worries about my fellow members, they include;

- Posters with an unnatural interest in flogging themselves

- Posters with an unnatural interest in other members flogging themselves

- Posters who appear to have connections with every organisation under the sun

- Posters who only comment on loses and are overly negative

- Posters who only comment on wins and can see no negatives at the club

- Poster who seem to enjoy whisky with an almost disturbing enthusiasm.

- People who want to trade N. Jones, not M. Jones.

- Far too few people talking about the snow (this is the dees after all)

- Many posters with seemingly fantastic long term memories (can tell you all about 87') but horrible short term memories (have forgotten how bad we were in 13')

If Roos is right, which I think he is, and we are part of the problem as we are constantly negative and joking about how bad the club is, then maybe it is us we should be looking at along with the players and coaches?

Many of the comments above are jovial in intent however a few are pointing to the problem Roos has called out. Maybe we should start to be more balanced in our appraisal, stop this Jeckyll and Hyde persona and actually provide meaningful comment and a balanced view to the progress of the team.

In short, are we actually the problem?

Yeah, it's a tough one this. I pretty much agree with everything in this OP, but no other supporter base (outside of perhaps Fitzroy and even St Kilda) has had such a sustained period of hopelessness. The fact that our supporters now deal in a kind of apathy is perfectly human. To dismiss the supporters for this lacks empathy. It's not up to our supporters to get the players up and improve the culture at the club, it's up to the players and the coaches themselves. Let's stop the deflections and be reasonable, but let's also stay the course on this rebuild.

When you say 'Introverts' I think of inertia.

When you say 'ego and strut' I think of confidence and boldness with the footy.

I think it is more important than this lack of speed that we have.

As for the need to think in the Grey - I couldn't agree more.

At one point this season there were people who thought we could win 9 of our last 10 games, and now we have people who would like to remove the coach a year early.

Hopping from one extreme to the other based on the performance of 22 evidently emotionally challenged individuals is ignoring the grey truth.

We could've won 9 of our last 10. It wasn't likely but it was certainly possible (ok maybe 8 now that West Coast have proved to be the real deal.)

Close the thread.

No one should forget that as of round 1 next year we'll have Petracca, Kent. Fully fit Salem, Frost, Top 5 pick, A grade free agent to pick from. That's 7 players who'd walk into most AFL sides. None too shabby. We'll finish top 10 next year

Yeah, it's a tough one this. I pretty much agree with everything in this OP, but no other supporter base (outside of perhaps Fitzroy and even St Kilda) has had such a sustained period of hopelessness. The fact that our supporters now deal in a kind of apathy is perfectly human. To dismiss the supporters for this lacks empathy. It's not up to our supporters to get the players up and improve the culture at the club, it's up to the players and the coaches themselves. Let's stop the deflections and be reasonable, but let's also stay the course on this rebuild.

Is it a supporters job to be supportive? (keeping in mind you can be supportive and criticize at the same time).

No one should forget that as of round 1 next year we'll have Petracca, Kent. Fully fit Salem, Frost, Top 5 pick, A grade free agent to pick from. That's 7 players who'd walk into most AFL sides. None too shabby. We'll finish top 10 next year

Unless they're injured.

Isn't Toump the new whipping boy?

I always find this such a banal expression.

Early draft picks that are clearly hopeless selections will always cop their fair share of scrutiny. Is it Toumpas' fault he was drafted early and isn't up to it ? No. Will that stop supporters venting their spleen over yet ANOTHER wasted opportunity ? Just as obviously, no.

Btw, I'm not shouldering blame over the pick, as many within the industry would have made the same selection.

Come on. Have a look at their team line up. They went smaller and quicker. Jameson and Rowe matched up on the hulk and Dawes. Other than that, they had us covered easily for speed.

As much as I like your opening, I wonder if you were there on Saturday. I agree with you on our lack of speed, although probably not to the same extent and I think it can be quite easily fixed, however, one could tell within the first 5 minutes we hadn't turned up with any intensity whatsoever and speed had nothing to do with it.

It was one of those days Melbourne supporters have seen before and you knew it really early on.

Edited August 25, 201510 yr by ProDee

As much as I like your opening, I wonder if you were there on Saturday. I agree with you on our lack of speed, although probably not to the same extent and I think it can be quite easily fixed, however, one could tell within the first 5 minutes we hadn't tuned up with any intensity whatsoever and speed had nothing to do with it.

It was one of those days Melbourne supporters have seen before and you knew it really early on.

Correct, I called game over half was through the first quarter.

He was certainly an ego maniac but he was the most respected by the Germans best to exploit the Normandy breakout and brilliant in his counterattack of the german penetration at the bulge

His bravery in ww1 is also not in question

Indeed. Pattton was quite the moron.

His Lunatic ego-driven advances around the sparesely defended wide sides of Sicily completely ignored the strategic situation, and even the pre-agreed Allied plans.

While the British/Allied forces ground along against hard defences up the short east coast, Patton's arrogance saw Allied supplies and forces diverted to the terrific mission of successfully shepherding German/Italian forces back to the North-East corner, allowing them to make a protected, organised evacuation to mainland Italy, instead of being cut off and annihilated.

In that particular case, misplaced speed and 'swagger' likely extended the Italian campaign duration by months and cost tens of thousands of lives.

The essence of his 'boldness' was that he was convinced he was a great general, never really believed anything going wrong was his fault, and he never saw any need to improve or change, and only ever cared about his own objectives. Here's another Patton quote, if we're going that way -

"I believe that a good deal of my success and a great deal of my unpopularity is due to the fact that I fought every order to take troops away from me, and frequently succeeded in holding on to them or in getting others to replace them. "

Patton never sacrificed his own resources or glory for the sake of the overall objectives. As for the Melbourne Football Club, I'd prefer a great big dose of humility and resilience over some posturing 'look at me' types. They actually need to grasp they they are not such a big deal individually. They only matter as part of a team.

As much as I like your opening, I wonder if you were there on Saturday. I agree with you on our lack of speed, although probably not to the same extent and I think it can be quite easily fixed, however, one could tell within the first 5 minutes we hadn't tuned up with any intensity whatsoever and speed had nothing to do with it.

It was one of those days Melbourne supporters have seen before and you knew it really early on.

Head to Head Carlton Statistic Melbourne 130 Contested Possessions 125 206 Uncontested Possessions 176 248 Effective Disposals 208 72.7% Effective Disposals % 70.3% 50 Clangers 48 9 Contested Marks 13 9 Marks Inside 50 10 32 Clearances 35 41 Rebound 50s 25 52 One Percenters 32 18 Bounces 11 8 Goal Assists 2 66.7% % Goals Assisted 28.6%

Unlike the week before against the bulldogs, I thought we could just beat the blues, but the odds were ridiculously out of kilter.

Interesting we won clearances and almost parred contested possessions. Our disposal efficiency was down slightly compared to them, but we had less clangers. We had more scoring shots too. But what stands out like dog's gonads again is that we are grossly in the red when it comes to bounces (more than 50% less) and uncontested possessions (176 to 206). Lack of speed and extroversion for mine.

Granted, the speed differential was no where near that when we play dogs and saints (and maybe GWS in 2 weeks time). I'm more worried about GWS than I am the declining Freo. Although beware Ross Lyon, Sandy and Fyfe come September.

Correct, I called game over half was through the first quarter.

That is a 110% improvement on the week before against the bulldogs then.

Mindset lost the game not speed, and it was obvious within a few minutes of the game starting.

As stated, that's not to say speed isn't an issue.

All very well to quote the Iron general but he also believed in re-incarnation and was possibly more than slightly insane.

He once famously slapped a shell shocked trooper for supposed cowardice

Perhaps a trifle too aggressive for todays generation but the love ins arent working