Turn back the boats

[Wrecker45 3,378]

I am very happy that Bill Shorten finally admitting the previews Labor Government's polices were luring people to their death. Would anybody like to hear from Tanya? Do you lefties agree with electricity Bill ? Should we turn back the boats?

[Earl Hood 6,086]

Wrecker I can live with that policy as long as it is aligned with a regional agreement for the countries involved to process genuine refugees in a timely manner and agree for each to take their share. As Malcolm Frasier did in the 70's and advocated for years until his death. As for Bill he is trying to neutralise a festering problem for Labour and clear the decks to have a straight out environmental and social fairness battle with Tony for the next election which he believes will come early next year. Some observers are convinced Tony will pull the trigger before the next budget because he simply has no policies for the economy now and things may very well get much worse in the next year.

It is a big gamble by Bill, if he gets rolled on this he may have to stand aside. I personally could live with Albo or Tanya

The cost of unilateral turn backs of course is to earn the ire of Indonesia. We have already had some executions and recently seen beef exports go bust big time. But interesting there has been no blow back on the Libs from the Tabloids as opposed to what Julia copped when the live exports were suspended due to allegations of cruelty etc exposed on TV.

[daisycutter 29,616]

Wrecker I can live with that policy as long as it is aligned with a regional agreement for the countries involved to process genuine refugees in a timely manner and agree for each to take their share. As Malcolm Frasier did in the 70's and advocated for years until his death. As for Bill he is trying to neutralise a festering problem for Labour and clear the decks to have a straight out environmental and social fairness battle with Tony for the next election which he believes will come early next year. Some observers are convinced Tony will pull the trigger before the next budget because he simply has no policies for the economy now and things may very well get much worse in the next year.

It is a big gamble by Bill, if he gets rolled on this he may have to stand aside. I personally could live with Albo or Tanya

The cost of unilateral turn backs of course is to earn the ire of Indonesia. We have already had some executions and recently seen beef exports go bust big time. But interesting there has been no blow back on the Libs from the Tabloids as opposed to what Julia copped when the live exports were suspended due to allegations of cruelty etc exposed on TV.

bill, albo, tanya, julia......ffs earl, you sound like a love sick puppy.....get a life, man

[dee-luded 2,959]

Wrecker I can live with that policy as long as it is aligned with a regional agreement for the countries involved to process genuine refugees in a timely manner and agree for each to take their share. As Malcolm Frasier did in the 70's and advocated for years until his death. As for Bill he is trying to neutralise a festering problem for Labour and clear the decks to have a straight out environmental and social fairness battle with Tony for the next election which he believes will come early next year. Some observers are convinced Tony will pull the trigger before the next budget because he simply has no policies for the economy now and things may very well get much worse in the next year.

It is a big gamble by Bill, if he gets rolled on this he may have to stand aside. I personally could live with Albo or Tanya

The cost of unilateral turn backs of course is to earn the ire of Indonesia. We have already had some executions and recently seen beef exports go bust big time. But interesting there has been no blow back on the Libs from the Tabloids as opposed to what Julia copped when the live exports were suspended due to allegations of cruelty etc exposed on TV.

IMO we should not take any refugees who have payed smugglers to put them onto the smuggling boats, these refugees or economic refugees should be sent for processing offshore in adjacent countries, & to be resettled into those countries, & marked as not to be given citizen status in Australia....

in response to these aiding actions by our neighbors, we should process & take suitable Sth-East Asian & Asia-Pacific refugees off our neighbors hands, to help them alleviate they're problems.

...... this way refugees get to find safe settlement, compared to the supposed dangers they're fleeing; just not in they're desired destinations.

this will provide safety to genuine cases, & dissuade those economic or politically motivated ones from making the venture.

[dpositive 1,665]

Abbotts election mantra was "Stop the boats".

He has manifestly failed this as boats are still coming

The fact that the Australian public does not know how many or what happens to them is of little consequence.

Changing the language from stopping to turning back is also of little consequence

Labour like the libs and every other government esp Europe has no real solution to the problems of population movement.

All we know is what we are doing is not working

Perhaps implementing International bans on armament distribution, assisting education and health programs to improve the situation in current war torn or dysfunctional countries might be better.

Perhaps even consideration that the religious fervour that is driving most of these movements needs to be adressed.

I look forward to the next series of send them back to where they came from to see what that reveals

[daisycutter 29,616]

manifestly?

[dpositive 1,665]

manifestly?

dictionary.reference.com/browse/manifestly

readily perceived by the eye or the understanding; evident; obvious; apparent; plain

www.thefreedictionary.com/manifestly

Clearly apparent to the sight or understanding; obvious

yes

[daisycutter 29,616]

by being pedantic on this point you only give the appearance of a zealot

[dee-luded 2,959]

Wrecker I can live with that policy as long as it is aligned with a regional agreement for the countries involved to process genuine refugees in a timely manner and agree for each to take their share. As Malcolm Frasier did in the 70's and advocated for years until his death. As for Bill he is trying to neutralise a festering problem for Labour and clear the decks to have a straight out environmental and social fairness battle with Tony for the next election which he believes will come early next year. Some observers are convinced Tony will pull the trigger before the next budget because he simply has no policies for the economy now and things may very well get much worse in the next year.

It is a big gamble by Bill, if he gets rolled on this he may have to stand aside. I personally could live with Albo or Tanya

The cost of unilateral turn backs of course is to earn the ire of Indonesia. We have already had some executions and recently seen beef exports go bust big time. But interesting there has been no blow back on the Libs from the Tabloids as opposed to what Julia copped when the live exports were suspended due to allegations of cruelty etc exposed on TV.

lets earn the Ire of the current Indonesian regime then.

.... who's to say the people smuggling money, kickbacks, etc, aren't going to funding IS in the middle east?

no I say phook the current Indon' regime.

the blow backers are asleep at the wheel until some sort of legislation comes up they resent; like the government owned NBNCo ... uncle rupert apparently didn't like the idea of dividing telstra up,

& of building the state owned NBN, controlling the wholesale price & making internet cheaper through the wholesale price controls.

maybe he could see too much competition ahead for Fox & other Pay-TV's.

he wants in on the NBN so they can leverage the Pay per Veiw streaming of TV & of Movies, 'at his prices', as they all work to drag the Free to Air standard of TV down into the gutter.

......... forcing people, over to Pay per View....

.

Edited July 26, 2015 by dee-luded

[Crompton's the man 659]

bill, albo, tanya, julia......ffs earl, you sound like a love sick puppy.....get a life, man[/quote

Are you paid for these offerings or are they presented as an the result of your study of philosophy ?

[Earl Hood 6,086]

bill, albo, tanya, julia......ffs earl, you sound like a love sick puppy.....get a life, man

DC I don't get your drift. Wrecker asked a question I gave him my answer, my thoughts on the issue of boat people which if you hadn't noticed has consumed the political debate of this nation for the past 10 years far beyond what it should. So I deem it worthy to have an opinion. My opinion doesn't consume a lot of my life because it is built into my core values. But yes I do spend perhaps too much time arguing my opinions on forums like this that have no impact.

Malcolm Frasier worked all this Shyte out early on and implemented a plan that worked for the Vietnamese diaspora. The same plan could have worked for the latest wave of refugees but John Howard chose a different path with Tampa for political reasons. We all live with that outcome today and the refugees much more so.

I still manage to have a life because I just find it interesting to follow the political thrust and parry. Oh and by the way as to your reponse to one of DPositive's comments above, yes he may seem to be a zealot and myself no doubt, in comparison to your what? Relativism? Determination never to commit to a policy?

[nutbean 8,838]

Another issue I am conflicted over.

- To me turning back the boats only pushes problems back out of our waters - I am not a supporter.

- The simple answer is a regional solution to the issue - all countries co-operating to ensure equality in distribution - and safe resettlement - now, do I believe that the countries in the region have the political will or Australia has the political capital to make this happen ? Not likely.

Hence my conflict.

[hardtack 10,537]

Another issue I am conflicted over.

- To me turning back the boats only pushes problems back out of our waters - I am not a supporter.

- The simple answer is a regional solution to the issue - all countries co-operating to ensure equality in distribution - and safe resettlement - now, do I believe that the countries in the region have the political will or Australia has the political capital to make this happen ? Not likely.

Hence my conflict.

Turning back the boats solves nothing. Wrecker likes to think we are saving lives by turning them back, when in truth by doing that we are exposing them to possibly more danger as they will probably have at least the same journey as they would if they came to our shores and so they will be exposed to the same dangers for the same period of time (if not longer). The only difference is that we will not be there to save their lives if something does go wrong and in all likelihood, more lives would be lost than if something went wrong in our waters.

The other difference is, and this is where I think the Abbott govt sees this as beneficial to them, I doubt very much we would ever hear of those lives lost outside our waters and so Abbott and Wrecker and their mates can all sleep easy in their ignorance. They don't care about saving lives, they just care about lives being lost in their own backyard.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Another issue I am conflicted over.

- To me turning back the boats only pushes problems back out of our waters - I am not a supporter.

- The simple answer is a regional solution to the issue - all countries co-operating to ensure equality in distribution - and safe resettlement - now, do I believe that the countries in the region have the political will or Australia has the political capital to make this happen ? Not likely.

Hence my conflict.

can I ask you, how do people who want refugee status, come all the way to Australia, from countries as far away as Nth Africa & the Arabian peninsular ?

and also, where does the responsibility for people who wish their country be different, end; & to not take a stand there ?

will all the good people of the middle east, all pull up stumps, instead of fighting back against the sick political will, of the radical Islamist's?

why don't Ceylonese go to India, a country close by, & wealthy enough to have its own Nuclear programs, & weapons?

[nutbean 8,838]

Turning back the boats solves nothing. Wrecker likes to think we are saving lives by turning them back, when in truth by doing that we are exposing them to possibly more danger as they will probably have at least the same journey as they would if they came to our shores and so they will be exposed to the same dangers for the same period of time (if not longer). The only difference is that we will not be there to save their lives if something does go wrong and in all likelihood, more lives would be lost than if something went wrong in our waters.

The other difference is, and this is where I think the Abbott govt sees this as beneficial to them, I doubt very much we would ever hear of those lives lost outside our waters and so Abbott and Wrecker and their mates can all sleep easy in their ignorance. They don't care about saving lives, they just care about lives being lost in their own backyard.

agreed - but I still am not confident in an alternative solution ( ie regional co-operation) happening. It still doesn't mean that I like the turn back policy in way shape or form.

[dpositive 1,665]

can I ask you, how do people who want refugee status, come all the way to Australia, from countries as far away as Nth Africa & the Arabian peninsular ?

and also, where does the responsibility for people who wish their country be different, end; & to not take a stand there ?

will all the good people of the middle east, all pull up stumps, instead of fighting back against the sick political will, of the radical Islamist's?

why don't Ceylonese go to India, a country close by, & wealthy enough to have its own Nuclear programs, & weapons?

I was gonna let this go coz I dont really have the exact facts so it is really just my opinion developed from many articles etc.

Refugees that I have seen interviewed are usually persecuted by an alternative power base. They have often backed the wrong side in a dispute. (thats why we got the defeated Vietnamese right wing and not the left wing socialists) Some have fought for the external power which is defeated and are therefore enemies in their own country.

Some are merely living under such horrendous regimes that channel all wealth into an elite few and arms industry while not investing in health and education. Also some regimes are ideologically or religously driven with a narrow agenda.

Many refugees want to leave these conditions not for themselves but to improve life for the next generation. Sometimes that the only reason they supported the wrong side in their own country internal conflict. Most programs I have seen this is the overwhelming reason for movement and is why the young feature so much in movement. Women are also heavily represented due to the abuse that they suffer. Males fight to protect their women and children and will often sacrifice to move them away from harm to a more settled and advanced society.

Often that advanced society is a long way from their country which are surrounded by countries that are no better than the country they are leaving. they often strike out as the Jews did from Germany through many countries to get to a place of salvation. The Jews were fortunate that Israel was established specifically for the opressed and persecuted.. Although that experiment has not proven that stable for middle east.

What responsibility do they have to get a different end and make a stand. Again as above many do sending only a part of their family. Often they make the ultimate sacrifices to effect that change.

The fight against the sick political will is not only the islamic forces domain. The Us originally supported Sudam. The powerful protecting their interests are responsible for these population movements. Often the powers manipulating forces are not resident in the country of conflict.

Sri lanka again is a different scenario where Tamils (religous minority) were trying to maintain their culture (land) etc against regimes supported by externals. They lost the war there and are now persecuted and are fleeing to other countries where they can retain their identity. Again it is often the younger generation who are initially sent to improve their circumstances.

The countries that you refer to closer to Sri Lanka , may have wealth which the ruling regimes control to their own advantage. they also have large social inequity and social problems. They are also a culture which is battling with its own identity and does notexhibit the same abilities of inclusion of minorities as Australia and other countries.

These persecuted minorities look to countries that are developed and have advanced learning that they understand the strength and values of diversity. Societies that accommodate minorities. Societies that are not frightened of difference but embrace it . Societies that are compassionate. Societies that can show respect to all. Societies that do not discriminate. Societies that allow a fair go. Do I need to go on.

There arent that many places it was one of the reasons why Australia is a lucky country and why we are a desirable option.

We also have capacity which must be carefully managed and we should not allow power divisions to erode our fortunate egalitarian past.

[hardtack 10,537]

The Tamils understandably want to get as far away from Sri Lanka as possible as they believe their lives are in danger... India is no doubt too close for comfort and I imagine the fact there are in excess of 67,000 refugees already in India's Tamil Nadu in less than desirable conditions may also have something to do with it.

As for the rest, Australia receives a minute percentage of the world's refugees (Australia took one refugee per 1, 000 population and ranked 69^th in the world for per capita refugee intake.). To put it into perspective, I recall a few years ago when the boats were coming thick and fast, if they had kept coming at the same rate, by 2020 there would have been enough arrivals to fill the MCG.

Hardly overrunning the country.

Australian intake figure from here: http://www.factsfightback.org.au/does-australia-take-the-most-refugees-check-the-facts/

Edited July 30, 2015 by hardtack

[Frosty Demon 153]

I say let them in. its a pretty big country

[dee-luded 2,959]

I was gonna let this go coz I dont really have the exact facts so it is really just my opinion developed from many articles etc.

Refugees that I have seen interviewed are usually persecuted by an alternative power base. They have often backed the wrong side in a dispute. (thats why we got the defeated Vietnamese right wing and not the left wing socialists) Some have fought for the external power which is defeated and are therefore enemies in their own country.

Some are merely living under such horrendous regimes that channel all wealth into an elite few and arms industry while not investing in health and education. Also some regimes are ideologically or religously driven with a narrow agenda.

Many refugees want to leave these conditions not for themselves but to improve life for the next generation. Sometimes that the only reason they supported the wrong side in their own country internal conflict. Most programs I have seen this is the overwhelming reason for movement and is why the young feature so much in movement. Women are also heavily represented due to the abuse that they suffer. Males fight to protect their women and children and will often sacrifice to move them away from harm to a more settled and advanced society.

Often that advanced society is a long way from their country which are surrounded by countries that are no better than the country they are leaving. they often strike out as the Jews did from Germany through many countries to get to a place of salvation. The Jews were fortunate that Israel was established specifically for the opressed and persecuted.. Although that experiment has not proven that stable for middle east.

What responsibility do they have to get a different end and make a stand. Again as above many do sending only a part of their family. Often they make the ultimate sacrifices to effect that change.

The fight against the sick political will is not only the islamic forces domain. The Us originally supported Sudam. The powerful protecting their interests are responsible for these population movements. Often the powers manipulating forces are not resident in the country of conflict.

Sri lanka again is a different scenario where Tamils (religous minority) were trying to maintain their culture (land) etc against regimes supported by externals. They lost the war there and are now persecuted and are fleeing to other countries where they can retain their identity. Again it is often the younger generation who are initially sent to improve their circumstances.

The countries that you refer to closer to Sri Lanka , may have wealth which the ruling regimes control to their own advantage. they also have large social inequity and social problems. They are also a culture which is battling with its own identity and does notexhibit the same abilities of inclusion of minorities as Australia and other countries.

These persecuted minorities look to countries that are developed and have advanced learning that they understand the strength and values of diversity. Societies that accommodate minorities. Societies that are not frightened of difference but embrace it . Societies that are compassionate. Societies that can show respect to all. Societies that do not discriminate. Societies that allow a fair go. Do I need to go on.

There arent that many places it was one of the reasons why Australia is a lucky country and why we are a desirable option.

We also have capacity which must be carefully managed and we should not allow power divisions to erode our fortunate egalitarian past.

thanks depositive, I agree with most of that;

but I still do not agree that we are the country that takes all... we cannot be the Island of all resort, for all in the world to escape whatever it is, whether it be US African/Americans escaping their police, or Tamils, or Nth Africans. & not Indians.

surely people have to see that the free world has to take a bigger stance to fix these countries, where these peoples are born into. its not realistic to have millions upon millions fleeing across borders from they're homelands, & as more troubles ignite, less nations will be safe, & more will try to flee. they will be heading in the same direction.

the US has some real questions to answer for what they've interfered with over the past 50+ years. you can plug the holes in the dyke, for just so long before the pressure is just too great, & then the flood is worse, than if it had eked away of its own accord.

[dee-luded 2,959]

The Tamils understandably want to get as far away from Sri Lanka as possible as they believe their lives are in danger... India is no doubt too close for comfort and I imagine the fact there are in excess of 67,000 refugees already in India's Tamil Nadu in less than desirable conditions may also have something to do with it.

As for the rest, Australia receives a minute percentage of the world's refugees (Australia took one refugee per 1, 000 population and ranked 69^th in the world for per capita refugee intake.). To put it into perspective, I recall a few years ago when the boats were coming thick and fast, if they had kept coming at the same rate, by 2020 there would have been enough arrivals to fill the MCG.

Hardly overrunning the country.

Australian intake figure from here: http://www.factsfightback.org.au/does-australia-take-the-most-refugees-check-the-facts/

no problem with taking more refugees at all, bur to me they should be selected from our regions, West & Sth-Pacific, & Sth-East Asian nations... not from half a world away, at a time when cultures are clashing badly... & the danger is to our own culture & values.

[hardtack 10,537]

no problem with taking more refugees at all, bur to me they should be selected from our regions, West & Sth-Pacific, & Sth-East Asian nations... not from half a world away, at a time when cultures are clashing badly... & the danger is to our own culture & values.

Sorry DL, but I don't buy that at all... what exactly are our "own culture and values"?

We Anglos were the first boat people to arrive on this continent (from half a world away, by the way)... the true culture and values of this land are not ours; they were here roughly 50,000 years before us. Now we are a mix of all cultures and all religions.

The Chinese have been here almost as long as the Anglos, the Italians, Greek, Croats, Serbs, Lebanese have been here for decades upon decades. It's a bit rich to talk about refugees from half a world away when the bulk of our population came from half a world away.

I assume your "at a time when cultures are clashing so badly" comment is a reference to ISIS and Talliban etc... if so, you seem to overlook the fact that the bulk of refugees are fleeing those kinds of tyrannical societies.

Culture clashes and old rivalries are nothing new here at all... Croats and Serbs, North and South Vietnamese... they all resolve themselves in time. Let's face it, if it wasn't for the diverse range of immigrants from all corners of the planet that we have had for so long, our culture would not be what it is today.

[nutbean 8,838]

Sorry DL, but I don't buy that at all... what exactly are our "own culture and values"?

We Anglos were the first boat people to arrive on this continent (from half a world away, by the way)... the true culture and values of this land are not ours; they were here roughly 50,000 years before us. Now we are a mix of all cultures and all religions.

The Chinese have been here almost as long as the Anglos, the Italians, Greek, Croats, Serbs, Lebanese have been here for decades upon decades. It's a bit rich to talk about refugees from half a world away when the bulk of our population came from half a world away.

I assume your "at a time when cultures are clashing so badly" comment is a reference to ISIS and Talliban etc... if so, you seem to overlook the fact that the bulk of refugees are fleeing those kinds of tyrannical societies.

Culture clashes and old rivalries are nothing new here at all... Croats and Serbs, North and South Vietnamese... they all resolve themselves in time. Let's face it, if it wasn't for the diverse range of immigrants from all corners of the planet that we have had for so long, our culture would not be what it is today.

To me education ( and in particular generational education) is the key.

1950/60's - watch out ! we are being invaded by Greeks and Italians - the problem today ? meh - non existent

1970's - watch out ! we are being invaded by Vietnamese - the problem today ? meh - non existent

Whilst the integration of first wave immigrants can be "rocky" - through education, the children tend to embrace all that is good with country ( without necessarily abandoning their cultural roots).

Come to the nutbean household - A good Jewish boy from New Zealand with his first generation Australia girlfriend ( whose parents are Egyptian) and the girlfriends daughters boyfriend - 1st generation Australian from Vietnamese refugee parents. We got it all going on !

[hardtack 10,537]

To me education ( and in particular generational education) is the key.

1950/60's - watch out ! we are being invaded by Greeks and Italians - the problem today ? meh - non existent

1970's - watch out ! we are being invaded by Vietnamese - the problem today ? meh - non existent

Whilst the integration of first wave immigrants can be "rocky" - through education, the children tend to embrace all that is good with country ( without necessarily abandoning their cultural roots).

Come to the nutbean household - A good Jewish boy from New Zealand with his first generation Australia girlfriend ( whose parents are Egyptian) and the girlfriends daughters boyfriend - 1st generation Australian from Vietnamese refugee parents. We got it all going on !

yep... agree on all counts. I love the fact that my boys have Japanese blood running through their veins, have best friends who are from all over the place (Lebanon, Turkey, Vietnam, China, etc etc)... because those connections between the kids create connections between their parents. The problems only seem to happen when politicians get involved.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Sorry DL, but I don't buy that at all... what exactly are our "own culture and values"?

We Anglos were the first boat people to arrive on this continent (from half a world away, by the way)... the true culture and values of this land are not ours; they were here roughly 50,000 years before us. Now we are a mix of all cultures and all religions.

The Chinese have been here almost as long as the Anglos, the Italians, Greek, Croats, Serbs, Lebanese have been here for decades upon decades. It's a bit rich to talk about refugees from half a world away when the bulk of our population came from half a world away.

I assume your "at a time when cultures are clashing so badly" comment is a reference to ISIS and Talliban etc... if so, you seem to overlook the fact that the bulk of refugees are fleeing those kinds of tyrannical societies.

Culture clashes and old rivalries are nothing new here at all... Croats and Serbs, North and South Vietnamese... they all resolve themselves in time. Let's face it, if it wasn't for the diverse range of immigrants from all corners of the planet that we have had for so long, our culture would not be what it is today.

the current culture/value systems are ours, all of us.... the current mix of all cultures and all religions is a fantastic one, & one we need to protect.

Our recent culture is of a people who give one another a chopout, will move out of the way without hesitation if blocking the footpath, or the roads, people of generosity, who will help others in the blink of an eye without needing to think about it.

......... & a myriad of little things that added together, created the great culture that we enjoyed around the 50's to late 80's.

yes I know that some in this land, don't feel all that warmth, but whilst these values were strong, there is a chance to maintain them, & to spread they're breadth further across our nation.

... these values are being tragically eroded by a materialistic theme passing through Australia at this time; & by other radicals of differing faiths/beliefs, wanting to impose they're wills, over ours.

Now is not the time in history, to bring in warring faiths; & so doing, risk fracturing a culture that could once again be the model for the current world.

we can be a sort of ark where 2x2 we can keep things healthy, & helping outside our shores to aid & to help repair other nations. we cannot be the solitary island on earth everyone wants to run to, to escape the black scourge going on about the planet.

the planet is an angry place right now, in all forms, including animal attacks rising, geological uprisings, weather conditions, all things are starting to get on the boil, & will continue to worsen. NoPoint bringing the scourge in.

When fighting EBOLA, the doctors have to treat it by being totally insulated from its contact. without these barriers those doctors cannot help, & the virus would run rampant spreading across the planet.

these are the types of reasons the world survives healthily, made up of Islands & Continents; this aids diversity, & differing cultures which is a good thing, & diversity is healthy for evolvement: ..... viva la difference`

.

Edited July 31, 2015 by dee-luded

[Frosty Demon 153]

thanks depositive, I agree with most of that;

but I still do not agree that we are the country that takes all... we cannot be the Island of all resort, for all in the world to escape whatever it is, whether it be US African/Americans escaping their police, or Tamils, or Nth Africans. & not Indians.

surely people have to see that the free world has to take a bigger stance to fix these countries, where these peoples are born into. its not realistic to have millions upon millions fleeing across borders from they're homelands, & as more troubles ignite, less nations will be safe, & more will try to flee. they will be heading in the same direction.

the US has some real questions to answer for what they've interfered with over the past 50+ years. you can plug the holes in the dyke, for just so long before the pressure is just too great, & then the flood is worse, than if it had eked away of its own accord.

its not just the US deluded its the Crown. Thats the British Crown. Check out the Invisible Empire on you tube. They created this chaos and continue too.