DD you are so blinkered against Watts that you wouldn't even acknowledge it if he got a hard ball. Watts is one of the most elite users of the ball when he gets posession and is responsible for more goal assists (and goals) than anybody else on our list. I always know that something positive is going to develop when Watts gets the ball in the same way that I do with Garlett and, before that, Jurrah.

We have got enough players that can get the hard ball and it will improve even moreso when Petracca and Trengrove come on stream next year, joining Brayshaw, vandemBerg, Riley, Jones, Hogan etc. Watts was never recruited as an inside midfielder so let's appreciate him for his set of skills. His teammates are always supportive of him, a far cry from many Demonlanders who refuse to move on because we drafted him instead of Nic Nat. It is the same arguments that the same people throw up against Toumpas vs. Wines.

That's because he has never got one in any of his 100 game career.

I'm still waiting.

Had to check.....Fitzy is out of contract at years end along with Toumpas, Howe and Garland.......interesting.

Fitzy is worth keeping

Footscray can f off...

if footscray offered mitch wallis, jack macrae, jake stringer, or the bont for him i hardly think we'd be saying no...

we need midfielders with pace and skill. theirs are their best players.

please before Grimes we have plenty of other players to cut...

Bail Fitzpatrick M.Jones Spencer Mckenzie Hunt Terlich Jamar (ret)

I would be looking at Gawn and Fitz well before Spencil at this point. Not saying Spencil is a match winner or miles ahead either but i think he is a "possible" AFL regular in our best 22 going forward (until we come up with a another soldier (eg., King when ready maybe). The other 2 talls aren't IMO.

Fitzy is worth keeping

Footscray can f off...

WYL can i have some of what you're having mate!

I've yet to see why he is worth holding on to (until now) other than one half decent game against the doggies

if footscray offered mitch wallis, jack macrae, jake stringer, or the bont for him i hardly think we'd be saying no...

we need midfielders with pace and skill. theirs are their best players.

We'd be laughing if we got any of those for Fitzy (despite his obvious upside). Would take Macrae any day of the week. Is he still struggling to get a game at the Bullies?

Let's be honest here....

Totally untouchable: Jones, Hogan, McDonald, Brayshaw, Viney, Petracca, Salem.

I'd trade anyone else for the right offer.

Let me say that again before anyone arcs up, the right offer.

Let's be honest here....

Totally untouchable: Jones, Hogan, McDonald, Brayshaw, Viney, Petracca, Salem.

I'd trade anyone else for the right offer.

Let me say that again before anyone arcs up, the right offer.

Add Tyson to that group and I'm with you, mate.

Add Tyson to that group and I'm with you, mate.

Thought about it. I like him, I just wouldn't put him in the totally untouchable group..... yet.

Let's be honest here....

Totally untouchable: Jones, Hogan, McDonald, Brayshaw, Viney, Petracca, Salem.

I'd trade anyone else for the right offer.

Let me say that again before anyone arcs up, the right offer.

So to paraphrase an old joke,

"We've established the fact that you're a prostitute,now we are just quibbling over the price".

WYL can i have some of what you're having mate!

I've yet to see why he is worth holding on to (until now) other than one half decent game against the doggies

I like his attitude. I want to see him have a real crack before he is trade bait

Thought about it. I like him, I just wouldn't put him in the totally untouchable group..... yet.

Sentimentality aside, Tyson's more of an "untouchable" than Viney I would have thought. Despite some patchy form this year, his best has been quite a fair way ahead of Jack's. Not to say Viney won't become a gun footballer, but Tyson is more valuable at this stage.

Edited June 7, 201510 yr by Scythe

I've never seen Viv Michie impact a contest or win a hard ball.

VFL standard only.

Talking to a few at Casey yesterday and this was the sentiment expressed time and again. He is just not flashy but gets the job done. Most could not work out why he gets the flick first after being assigned the better players when he is in the team. If they pick him to take Fyfe one week then drop him the next only to bring him back in to take Mitchell what is their thinking. Does not make a lot of sense, either he is good enough to take these great players and reduce their influence or he is not. They are certainly trying to build him into a tagger. Completely shut down Dwyer yesterday after he got away to a great start (2 goals in the 1st Qtr but not a touch in the second). Had no impact after the first qtr. Viv kicked a great goal and had a hand in a couple more.

Watts is AFL standard.

I watch all players. Mitchie is a good, ordinary player. Hardly impacts.

DD you are so blinkered against Watts that you wouldn't even acknowledge it if he got a hard ball. Watts is one of the most elite users of the ball when he gets posession and is responsible for more goal assists (and goals) than anybody else on our list. I always know that something positive is going to develop when Watts gets the ball in the same way that I do with Garlett and, before that, Jurrah.

We have got enough players that can get the hard ball and it will improve even moreso when Petracca and Trengrove come on stream next year, joining Brayshaw, vandemBerg, Riley, Jones, Hogan etc. Watts was never recruited as an inside midfielder so let's appreciate him for his set of skills. His teammates are always supportive of him, a far cry from many Demonlanders who refuse to move on because we drafted him instead of Nic Nat. It is the same arguments that the same people throw up against Toumpas vs. Wines.

D'land at its best!

Jumbo, Michie may well be VFL standard only as you say but, if he is and i'm not saying he is, there are others around him that might also deserve the badge you have bestowed upon him.

CBD that statement isn't quite correct as you can see below. He isn't the highest ranked in either Goal Assists or Goals per game averages so not sure where you're getting your info from. He is up there yes but not leading them as you state.

If there's any truth to Jumbo's statement about being VFL standard only, and there may well be, there others that probably also qualify (if you agree with Jumbo) who actually rank worse than Viv in many key areas. Just saying. Take a look gang. I've given you the top 5 plus i've added the regular names that come up quite often amongst D'landers as potential trade bait/VFL standard only type arguments etc as well as a few stand out new (roos drafted) players to see how they're all fairing in a comparative sense. All stats are up to and including Round 9 which is a statistically significant sample in the context of a season (stats courtesy of Footywire).

Averages Per Game

Tackles

1. Spencer (6.3)

2. Viney (5.3)

3. Vanders (5.1)

4. Brayshaw (4.6)

4. N Jones (4.6)

7. M Jones (4.0)

7. R. Bail (4.0)

14. Salem (3.6 in only his 2nd year!)

21. Grimes (2.5)

22. Howe (2.44)

23. Toumpas (2.4)

24. Michie (2.3)

26. Watts (2.1)

Uncontested Possessions

1. Viney (14.0)

2. N Jones (12.4)

3. T-Mac (12.1)

4. Crossy (11.89)

5. Tyson (11.86)

6. Grimes (11.7)

9. Michie (10.0)

11. Toumpas (9.4)

13. Howe (9.1)

15. Salem (8.7)

16. Fitzy (8.5)

19. Bail (8.0)

22. Watts (7.0)

Effective Disposals

1. Cross (15.6)

2. Viney (15.0)

3. T-Mac (14.9)

4. N Jones (14.7)

5. Tyson (13.7)

6. Fitzy (13.5)

7. Howe (13.2)

8. Grimes (13.0)

11. Michie (11.3)

16. Spencer (10.2)

20. Toumpas (9.4)

21. M Jones (9.0)

22. Watts (8.5)

23. Bail (8.3)

Goal Assists

1. Michie (0.67)

1. M Jones (0.67)

3. Watts (0.63)

4. JKH (0.60)

5. Newton (0.57)

Goals

1. Garlett (2.0)

2. Hulk (1.7)

3. Pedo (1.2)

4. Newton (1.0)

4. Fitzy (1.0)

6. Watts (0.63)

Contested Possessions

1. Tyson (9.6)

2. N Jones (9.4)

3. Vanders (8.7... DE of 49%! ughh)

4. Crossy (8.4)

5. Vince (7.9)

10. Spencer (6.7)

12. Howe (6.1)

15. M Jones (6.0)

15. Michie (6.0)

18. Grimes (5.2)

20. Fitzy (5.0)

20. Riley (5.0)

26. Watts (4.6)

27. Toump (4.6)

I'm going to get served with divorce papers if i keep going so i'll finish up here. Let me know if you want any other particular stat averages or if you would like to know where a particular player sits that isn't listed and i'll post them when the war office is absent!

Edited June 7, 201510 yr by Rusty Nails

Sentimentality aside, Tyson's more of an "untouchable" than Viney I would have thought. Despite some patchy form this year, his best has been quite a fair way ahead of Jack's. Not to say Viney won't become a gun footballer, but Tyson is more valuable at this stage.

For me, it's not just about skill. Viney is untouchable for the same reason Jones is, he provides us with a bit of heart which is something we can't afford to trade away.

For me, it's not just about skill. Viney is untouchable for the same reason Jones is, he provides us with a bit of heart which is something we can't afford to trade away.

He also provides us with muscle and aggression at the contest. That is something we have been sadly lacking. I'm sick of Melbourne players being brushed aside or unable to hold a tackle. Our pizzweakness (sic)has been plain embarrassing over recent years.

D'land at its best!

Jumbo, Michie may well be VFL standard only as you say but, if he is and i'm not saying he is, there are others around him that might also deserve the badge you have bestowed upon him.

CBD that statement isn't quite correct as you can see below. He isn't the highest ranked in either Goal Assists or Goals per game averages so not sure where you're getting your info from. He is up there yes but not leading them as you state.

If there's any truth to Jumbo's statement about being VFL standard only, and there may well be, there others that probably also qualify (if you agree with Jumbo) who actually rank worse than Viv in many key areas. Just saying. Take a look gang. I've given you the top 5 plus i've added the regular names that come up quite often amongst D'landers as potential trade bait/VFL standard only type arguments etc as well as a few stand out new (roos drafted) players to see how they're all fairing in a comparative sense. All stats are up to and including Round 9 which is a statistically significant sample in the context of a season (stats courtesy of Footywire).

Averages Per Game

Tackles

1. Spencer (6.3)

2. Viney (5.3)

3. Vanders (5.1)

4. Brayshaw (4.6)

4. N Jones (4.6)

7. M Jones (4.0)

7. R. Bail (4.0)

14. Salem (3.6 in only his 2nd year!)

21. Grimes (2.5)

22. Howe (2.44)

23. Toumpas (2.4)

24. Michie (2.3)

26. Watts (2.1)

Uncontested Possessions

1. Viney (14.0)

2. N Jones (12.4)

3. T-Mac (12.1)

4. Crossy (11.89)

5. Tyson (11.86)

6. Grimes (11.7)

9. Michie (10.0)

11. Toumpas (9.4)

13. Howe (9.1)

15. Salem (8.7)

16. Fitzy (8.5)

19. Bail (8.0)

22. Watts (7.0)

Effective Disposals

1. Cross (15.6)

2. Viney (15.0)

3. T-Mac (14.9)

4. N Jones (14.7)

5. Tyson (13.7)

6. Fitzy (13.5)

7. Howe (13.2)

8. Grimes (13.0)

11. Michie (11.3)

16. Spencer (10.2)

20. Toumpas (9.4)

21. M Jones (9.0)

22. Watts (8.5)

23. Bail (8.3)

Goal Assists

1. Michie (0.67)

1. M Jones (0.67)

3. Watts (0.63)

4. JKH (0.60)

5. Newton (0.57)

Goals

1. Garlett (2.0)

2. Hulk (1.7)

3. Pedo (1.2)

4. Newton (1.0)

4. Fitzy (1.0)

6. Watts (0.63)

Contested Possessions

1. Tyson (9.6)

2. N Jones (9.4)

3. Vanders (8.7... DE of 49%! ughh)

4. Crossy (8.4)

5. Vince (7.9)

10. Spencer (6.7)

12. Howe (6.1)

15. M Jones (6.0)

15. Michie (6.0)

18. Grimes (5.2)

20. Fitzy (5.0)

20. Riley (5.0)

26. Watts (4.6)

27. Toump (4.6)

I'm going to get served with divorce papers if i keep going so i'll finish up here. Let me know if you want any other particular stat averages or if you would like to know where a particular player sits that isn't listed and i'll post them when the war office is absent!

Great work. Games played would be helpful as some on these lists have not played 20 games at AFL level yet. Writing anybody off before they get to 20 games is gutsy.

Let's be honest here....

Totally untouchable: Jones, Hogan, McDonald, Brayshaw, Viney, Petracca, Salem.

I'd trade anyone else for the right offer.

Let me say that again before anyone arcs up, the right offer.

Add Tyson to that group and I'm with you, mate.

Thought about it. I like him, I just wouldn't put him in the totally untouchable group..... yet.

Sentimentality aside, Tyson's more of an "untouchable" than Viney I would have thought. Despite some patchy form this year, his best has been quite a fair way ahead of Jack's. Not to say Viney won't become a gun footballer, but Tyson is more valuable at this stage.

For me, it's not just about skill. Viney is untouchable for the same reason Jones is, he provides us with a bit of heart which is something we can't afford to trade away.

I think Tyson is stronger in the contest than both Jones & Viney. The other 2 are more manic but Tyson can stand up a and release in the tackle better (when he decides) than the other 2, he is physically bigger and stronger.

I think your list is pretty much on the money 'stuie' but I would add Tyson.

Edited June 7, 201510 yr by rjay

Great work. Games played would be helpful as some on these lists have not played 20 games at AFL level yet. Writing anybody off before they get to 20 games is gutsy.

According to some on here Tom Boyd is a hack yet our players who have minimum five years behind them are.....

I think Tyson is stronger in the contest than both Jones & Viney. The other 2 are more manic but Tyson can stand up a and release in the tackle better (when he decides) than the other 2, he is physically bigger and stronger.

I think your list is pretty much on the money 'stuie but I would add Tyson.

What have you made of Tyson's year so far, rjay?

I like his attitude. I want to see him have a real crack before he is trade bait

Fair point and he has only played 20 odd matches. They say big fellas take longer to come on as well. We do hav to sort out our big man dept though as we have 4 on the list. 3 if you assume its the Russians swan song. But then 4 again if we include King in the mix.

Edited June 7, 201510 yr by Rusty Nails

I posted this in the Senior List Jigsaw Puzzle Thread but is relevant here as well.

As we start to discuss our ideas for next season I have updated the contracts thread to so we have a clear picture of who is out the door / needs to be resigned.

2019
N Jones

2018
Brayshaw, Petracca

2017
Dunn, Hogan, Lumumba, Salem, Kennedy-Harris, Viney

2016
Dawes, Grimes (RFA), Watts (RFA), Michie*, Vince, Tyson*, Kent, M Jones, Spencer, T McDonald, Terlich, Jetta, Garlett, Stretch, Frost, Trengrove, Neal-Bullen, Newton*, O McDonald

2015
Jamar (UFA), Garland (RFA), McKenzie, Howe, Gawn, Fitzpatrick, Toumpas, Pedersen, Hunt, Cross, Bail, Riley, Harmes ®, King ®, Vandenberg ®, White ®

* = Require confirmation...

Great work. Games played would be helpful as some on these lists have not played 20 games at AFL level yet. Writing anybody off before they get to 20 games is gutsy.

Agreed. I have heard some of the past veteran players in the media bandy 60 - 80 games as a rough guide before judging how a new player is rolling.

The trouble is though Samael, our list runs very shallow so in many other clubs the depth players or new rookies do their apprenticeship in the VFL for a few years and have to fight like hell before they get a look in at senior level. By then the powers that be have had a fair crack at seeing what type of standard they might be getting as well as years playing the style of game that's needed to break into the seniors under the guide of their VFL affiliate club/coach.

I'm not sure we have any such luxuries with our Casey connection or our extremely shallow list. And I suspect it's been this way for as long as the AFL dumped the reserves (for us anyway).

Edited June 7, 201510 yr by Rusty Nails

Fair point and he has only played 20 odd matches. They say big fellas take longer to come on as well. We do hav to sort out our big man dept though as we have 4 on the list. 3 if you assume its the Russians swan song. But then 4 again if we include King in the mix.

RN, thanks for all the stats....bloody good reading!

Beats reading and marking essays!

Hope you're still married.

RN, thanks for all the stats....bloody good reading!

Beats reading and marking essays!

Hope you're still married.

Only just I think Jumbo. Glad you enjoyed although I'm a tad concerned as I'm doing it out of boredom mostly. Hopefully your weekends aren't this boring.

In the end they are only stats Jumbo and in some cases not the sort the coaches would bother with too much anyways. Some of them are half decent though like uncontested which might give us keyboard warriors a rough guide as to who is spreading well etc. Tackles not too bad as a rough "pressure act" guide etc. I really wld love to see the juicy stuff from champion though such as "pressure acts", "turnovers inside 50 from pressure acts", "goals from link up play" (I forget what it's called but gives you a guide as to who has the most involvement in passages of play that result in goals eg, Harvey was one of the highest last year being involved in something like a massive 36% of link play that resulted in goals. Coaches love this stuff and is usually highlighted to them by their review crew for up coming match ups etc). Kicking efficiency is another I'd love to see. Anyway we aren't going to get the good stuff so just have to use what we have as a rough guide.

RPFC is doing some great work with differentials in uncontested etc at a team level which is a great guide to how we are performing vs the rest of the comp. Not sure if you've taken a look.

In the end though you get a much better feel from seeing what's taking place obviously. And as OD would often remind us, at the end of the day the only stat that matters is the scoreboard silly!

Edited June 7, 201510 yr by Rusty Nails