Matt Jones is not the problem.

He's a good depth player. Every club has them.

We need more genuine stars in the midfield.

Everyone here who goes about M Jones, Terlich, Bail, McKenzie needs to realise that these players are not taking much of the cap.

It's the guys who are paid the big $$$ who need to be more accountable - because that money can and should be spent on quality players from other clubs who would deliver more.

Delist...

Mckenzie, Bail, M Jones, Terlich, Fitzpatrick.

These are not depth players, they are list cloggers. They are not AFL standard and when under pressure, they fall over or skills are so bad they turnover the footy.

50/50: Hunt (not developing)

Retire: Jamar

Thats 7 spots available.

Edited June 1, 20159 yr by spirit of norm smith

I think a rookie spot is warranted & to sponsor him on an AFL course of some sort to start a career outside the the footy oval, but in the game if he desires & at the same time have him working on his injury to get it right.

if he wants a career in some business away from AFL we should look to help him in every way.

but we should NOT shut the door on him

I believe Trenners signed on this week for another year, good on him and good on the club.

yes indeed, that was fantastic news...

by the by: I notice you haven't discovered (the quote tab) in the bottom right hand corner of the post you wish to reply to , just yet JJT...

lets all hope Trenners gets thru his long rehab with flying colours. I certainly do... if you know of Trenners tell him to go to Canada& stay for 3 months, & visit Rick Simpson for his cure all... for all things health, including circulation issues, & bone healing...

cheers, jjt.

If a player has signed on for next year and/or above does that means the club can trade that person? If out of contract the club gets squat. Therefore Trenners can be traded. Is that the case?

As a club we must start thinking outside the square,look out what Swans have piked up in Pike and the Jacks brothers all from rugby backgrounds. You don't have be drunk to achieve that or suggest it,perhaps a little bold!!!!

Delist...

Mckenzie, Bail, M Jones, Terlich, Fitzpatrick.

These are not depth players, they are list cloggers. They are not AFL standard and when under pressure, they fall over or skills are so bad they turnover the footy.

Its interesting as none of those players would be in most supporter's "top 22 MFC players".

So our actual problem is that our current "top 22 player" list is still sub-par, and I'd far prefer to focus on and replace those sub-par "top 22 players", than focus on players outside our top 22 who'll most likely be playing for Casey if we were injury free.

To name several sub-par "top 22 players" (on current form) - Dawes, Howe, Jamar, Watts.

Delist...

Mckenzie, Bail, M Jones, Terlich, Fitzpatrick.

These are not depth players, they are list cloggers. They are not AFL standard and when under pressure, they fall over or skills are so bad they turnover the footy.

you forgot Spencer, spirit? thought you would have included the pencil?

Delist...

Mckenzie, Bail, M Jones, Terlich, Fitzpatrick.

These are not depth players, they are list cloggers. They are not AFL standard and when under pressure, they fall over or skills are so bad they turnover the footy.

50/50: Hunt (not developing)

Retire: Jamar

Thats 7 spots available.

My count is at least 12

McKenzie Terlich Jones Jamar Watts Toumpas Hunt Bail Michie Garland Dunn Howe

Edited June 1, 20159 yr by jackaub

Delist...

Mckenzie, Bail, M Jones, Terlich, Fitzpatrick.

These are not depth players, they are list cloggers. They are not AFL standard and when under pressure, they fall over or skills are so bad they turnover the footy.

50/50: Hunt (not developing)

Retire: Jamar

Thats 7 spots available.

Yep - this will make us a top 4 team.

Terlich hasn't even played a senior game this year, McKenzie has played one or two - but we've still been hammered by GWS, Sydney, Hawthorn and Port.

Clearly fair to put the blame squarely at these players who've not even played in some of those games.

My count is at least 12

McKenzie Terlich Jones Jamar Watts Toumpas Hunt Bail Michie Garland Dunn Howe

Nothing will shock me, mainly because Simon Goodwin will take a massive part in the cull as it will be his team at end of 2016.

He is not going to take over a team full of D Graders, and Roosy wont want him to. This offseason will be massive for the MFC, the biggest yet.

My count is at least 12

McKenzie Terlich Jones Jamar Watts Toumpas Hunt Bail Michie Garland Dunn Howe

No to Toumpas, Hunt, Michie, Garland and Dunn.

The rest I'd happily be done with if we can find better replacements, most by delisting and hopefully a trade for Howe if he doesn't pull his finger out. To add to that, I think Cross will probably retire.

Edited June 1, 20159 yr by Django

From what I can gather from listening to Roos on Fox. These mental Scars he refers to the players having.

The way I see means anyone that has them, is pretty much out the door.. He sounds fed up!

Matt Jones is not the problem.

He's a good depth player. Every club has them.

We need more genuine stars in the midfield.

Everyone here who goes about M Jones, Terlich, Bail, McKenzie needs to realise that these players are not taking much of the cap.

It's the guys who are paid the big $$$ who need to be more accountable - because that money can and should be spent on quality players from other clubs who would deliver more.

Agreed. But what I would say is those guys should not be on our list as if/when we get these stars those guys will be the first to go to make room on the list and the order shuffles down. As much as I love guys like Cross, Garland, Grimes, Jamar, Pedo etc, we need to realise that THEY are the ones who will be the depth players when we have a decent list.

Agreed. But what I would say is those guys should not be on our list as if/when we get these stars those guys will be the first to go to make room on the list and the order shuffles down. As much as I love guys like Cross, Garland, Grimes, Jamar, Pedo etc, we need to realise that THEY are the ones who will be the depth players when we have a decent list.

Sadly, i feel that many of those names mentioned will be old enough to retire by the time we actually have a decent list.

The club has wasted their AFL careers (except Cross), and in some aspects, they have wasted the clubs.

Yep - this will make us a top 4 team.

Terlich hasn't even played a senior game this year, McKenzie has played one or two - but we've still been hammered by GWS, Sydney, Hawthorn and Port.

Clearly fair to put the blame squarely at these players who've not even played in some of those games.

Yeah cos you know, everyone is talking about how good our depth is this year........

It's a harsh view to take, but sometimes I feel as though Watts really embodies the mental scars. Even more than that, they were branded upon him by the club, in the darkest days through which his whole career has been. I don't think he'll ever have a successful career with us and he is not the only one (of course).

We need to send him onwards with the others and get what we can for them, which will be mostly just list space. Continue to turn the list over, and it has been working the last couple of years with Taylor and co nailing the picks and the trades.

Edited June 1, 20159 yr by Django

No to Toumpas, Hunt, Michie, Garland and Dunn.

The rest I'd happily be done with if we can find better replacements, most by delisting and hopefully a trade for Howe if he doesn't pull his finger out. To add to that, I think Cross will probably retire.

My list was made up of NQR,s No bl*%dy good and damaged goods

Basically many from the past are damaged and will have to go

My list was made up of NQR,s No bl*%dy good and damaged goods

Basically many from the past are damaged and will have to go

Despite the mental scars Garland stood up against Port. I hope we hold him.

Roos' thoughts on delistings:

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-06-01/paul-roos-flags-delistings-at-melbourne-after-port-disappointment?utm_medium=RSS

Pertinent comments:

-"Roos told Fox Footy on Monday night he was using the most brutal of motivational techniques to try to lift his players' efforts.

Perform - or find somewhere else to play...After years in the AFL's bottom half, Roos said he believed there are some players that cannot shake the mental demons of their past."

"We know what's wrong...We're yet to convince the player group of some of the things we know that work."

So who still have 'mental demons'? I'm reading Roos comments as those players who can't/won't change, can't/won't be coached, players who give up too easily or play as individuals.

The 186 game 'mental demon' players:

Not Safe

Jordie McKenzie 2015

Rohan Bail 2015

Max Gawn 2015

Mark Jamar 2015

Jack Fitzpatrick 2015

Jeremy Howe 2015

Jack Watts 2016

Jack Grimes 2016

Jake Spencer 2016

Safe:

Colin Garland 2015

Jack Trengove 2016

Tom McDonald 2017

Lynden Dunn 2017

Nathan Jones 2019

Of those the last 5 I think are safe.

-Jones and McDonald have overcome their 'mental demons'

-Garland plays his heart out but when the backs are bombarded it gets to him. If he wants to stay he would be safe

-Dunn seems to have overcome his demons but seems to not care too much. But being VC and contract length keeps him sort of safe.

-Trengove safe due to injury

Grimes plays his heart out but seems heavily burdened by past demons; not safe.

Some of the others may stay but only because they are needed for depth (eg Spencer if we can't trade in a ruckman).

The Neeld era 'mental demons' players:

- Terlich, M Jones, Dawes, Pedersen are contracted till 2016 and probably 'less scarred' than the 186 players.

They will be needed as depth players so are probably safe till the end of their contracts.

- Jimmy Toumpas 2015, Dean Kent 2016, Jack Viney 2017, Jesse Hogan 2017.

They are all safe. Yes, even Jimmy!

All other players have been recruited by Roos

BTW the above does not reflect who I would like to see go or stay, it is my assessment of who carries the most 'mental demons' and therefore in the gun.

Edited June 2, 20159 yr by Lucifer's Hero

Matt Jones is not the problem.

He's a good depth player. Every club has them.

We need more genuine stars in the midfield.

Everyone here who goes about M Jones, Terlich, Bail, McKenzie needs to realise that these players are not taking much of the cap.

It's the guys who are paid the big $$$ who need to be more accountable - because that money can and should be spent on quality players from other clubs who would deliver more.

No he's not 'the' problem. But he is most definitely an unfortunate result of one of the many problems we have with our list.

One being that we've had so many top 20 draft picks fail over the past 5 + years. Had some of those guys come on like they should have, Matt Jones wouldn't be on our list.

The plight of the MFC is complex and there are so many factors that have contributed to it. Our recruiting is simply one of many.

I agree with posters who continue to back Roos and ask for patience.

It's as if some people live in this fantasy world in which they believe players like Fitzpatrick, McKenzie and Bail will all make it if given enough time.

The reality is we've had to hold on to average players over the past couple of seasons simply because we've had no other choice. We've had so many of them and there can only be so many delistings made at the end of each season. As well as being aware of when certain contracts finish etc.

There are underperforming and mentally scarred senior players that still need to go just as there are players who are simply not good enough that will need to go.

Next year will be the third year that Roos will have had to slowly but surely reshape our list in a mindful way.

It's a waiting game.

No club has had a list as bad as we've had for this amount of time. No club.

It's not that amazing that we capitulate like we have been during games when there are still so many [censored] kickers running around.

Edited June 2, 20159 yr by stevethemanjordan

Roos' thoughts on delistings:

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-06-01/paul-roos-flags-delistings-at-melbourne-after-port-disappointment?utm_medium=RSS

Pertinent comments:

-"Roos told Fox Footy on Monday night he was using the most brutal of motivational techniques to try to lift his players' efforts.

Perform - or find somewhere else to play...After years in the AFL's bottom half, Roos said he believed there are some players that cannot shake the mental demons of their past."

"We know what's wrong...We're yet to convince the player group of some of the things we know that work."

So who still have 'mental demons'? I'm reading Roos comments as those players who can't/won't change, can't/won't be coached, players who give up too easily or play as individuals.

The 186 game 'mental demon' players:

Not Safe

Jordie McKenzie 2015

Rohan Bail 2015

Max Gawn 2015

Mark Jamar 2015

Jack Fitzpatrick 2015

Jeremy Howe 2015

Jack Watts 2016

Jack Grimes 2016

Jake Spencer 2016

Safe:

Colin Garland 2015

Jack Trengove 2016

Tom McDonald 2017

Lynden Dunn 2017

Nathan Jones 2019

Of those the last 5 I think are safe.

-Jones and McDonald have overcome their 'mental demons'

-Garland plays his heart out but when the backs are bombarded it gets to him. If he wants to stay he would be safe

-Dunn seems to have overcome his demons but seems to not care too much. But being VC and contract length keeps him sort of safe.

-Trengove safe due to injury

Grimes plays his heart out but seems heavily burdened by past demons; not safe.

Some of the others may stay but only because they are needed for depth (eg Spencer if we can't trade in a ruckman).

The Neeld era 'mental demons' players:

- Terlich, M Jones, Dawes, Pedersen are contracted till 2016 and probably 'less scarred' than the 186 players.

They will be needed as depth players so are probably safe till the end of their contracts.

- Jimmy Toumpas 2015, Dean Kent 2016, Jack Viney 2017, Jesse Hogan 2017.

They are all safe. Yes, even Jimmy!

All other players have been recruited by Roos

BTW the above does not reflect who I would like to see go or stay, it is my assessment of who carries the most 'mental demons' and therefore in the gun.

This is a pretty good list, IMO.

The three that stand out to me on the 'not safe' list are Howe, Watts and Grimes. These are the players we expect more from. Grimes has only just made his way back into the team, and Watts and Howe have been underperforming.

I've been a huge fan of Watts, but am starting to wonder if he needs a fresh start.

The other thing to remember is that Roos sees these players during the week, at training, in meetings, and not just on game day. Its always difficult for us to make a proper assessment of how 'scarred' they are, or what their attitudes are like, simply off game day (although i will admit that this is the most important factor to measure them by). This is what I always remind myself of when people question the selection (or non-selection) of certain players.

Matt Jones isn't the problem.

Him being in a position to play AFL games for MFC is the problem.

Am I the only one that thinks Grimes has been pretty good this year since he came back into the team?

My early predictions (I haven't read the contract thread so a couple could be wrong):

DELIST

McKenzie, Bail, M.Jones, Fitzpatrick, Terlich, Hunt

UP FOR TRADE (realistically trade 2 or 3 of this group, but most of these will have at least some currency, and would clear some cap space)

Dawes, Watts, Howe, Toumpas

RETIRE (maybe 1 more year from Cross)

Jamar

Am I the only one that thinks Grimes has been pretty good this year since he came back into the team?

My early predictions (I haven't read the contract thread so a couple could be wrong):

DELIST

McKenzie, Bail, M.Jones, Fitzpatrick, Terlich, Hunt

UP FOR TRADE (realistically trade 2 or 3 of this group, but most of these will have at least some currency, and would clear some cap space)

Dawes, Watts, Howe, Toumpas

RETIRE (maybe 1 more year from Cross)

Jamar

You are not alone FD

I am not a Grimes fan but I think he has justified his position since he got back in a couple of weeks ago.

Agree with your list with one exception

I don't believe Toumpas will have any trade value.

You are not alone FD

I am not a Grimes fan but I think he has justified his position since he got back in a couple of weeks ago.

Agree with your list with one exception

I don't believe Toumpas will have any trade value.

I reckon Grimesy is only two more good games away from some major retractions from people who have bagged him for the past two years.

Both he and Trengove were given the captaincy way before they should have, but they got it then because they had great work ethic and team principles.

Unfortunately it forced them to try and do too much and they found themselves in the horrors.

Grimesy is not a long kick, nor is he mega quick, but he is courageous and reliable and smart on the field with his positioning. Like everyone he will make the odd error and get pinned and get marked on, but at least you know that for the majority of the time he is doing the right thing and is making formation correctly.

Trengove's situation is tougher, not just because of his injury, but also because of the 120 rotation rule, which means his strength - endurance - is not a strength and his lack of blistering pace - becomes a liability.

But those who saw him in the first three seasons know he has the work ethic to succeed, tackles incredibly well and is also smart.

If the interchange rule drops to 80 - he will be a really big factor for us again - provided his foot mends correctly this time.

As to trade value, no one will take Toump, Dawes or Watts - except as insurance at the rookie draft or as a bottom order swap of positions.

But Howey will have some currency and is likely to be worth a second round pick IMO.

Edited June 2, 20159 yr by Deespicable

Toumpas is still far too young for the AFL world to have given up on him and would be taken via trade for sure if we decided to move him on (which I don't think we will).

Garland and Dunn would also be valuable to other clubs if we wanted to move them on (also which I don't think we will).

Take Fitz and Toumpas off Forest Demons list above and I wouldn't be too surprised.