Open Mike: Todd Viney

[nutbean 8,838]

Yet good old Barry snared T-Mac with pick 53 in the 2010 draft (he also picked Jeremy Howe with pick 33 in the same draft)

Pure luck or an inspired choice?

Hell, I even got caught up in all the hype with Scully & Trengove (for a short time) Just about all the football world was convinced that we'd struck gold with those 2. Picking both those 2 was the very definition of a no-brainer.

Prendergast was never going to go against conventional thinking ... that's the issue - conventional thinking when it comes to drafting in the AFL is flawed. Going against conventional thinking also has it's flaws.

It's a risk either way ... those wanting perfect results from an imperfect system really need to do a re-think.

Not really hard is it....

[Nasher 33,609]

Yet good old Barry snared T-Mac with pick 53 in the 2010 draft (he also picked Jeremy Howe with pick 33 in the same draft)

Pure luck or an inspired choice?

Hell, I even got caught up in all the hype with Scully & Trengove (for a short time) Just about all the football world was convinced that we'd struck gold with those 2. Picking both those 2 was the very definition of a no-brainer.

Prendergast was never going to go against conventional thinking ... that's the issue - conventional thinking when it comes to drafting in the AFL is flawed. Going against conventional thinking also has it's flaws.

It's a risk either way ... those wanting perfect results from an imperfect system really need to do a re-think.

I reckon Prendergast went well against conventional thinking with Gysberts, Cook and Strauss, who all went earlier than expected at the time, and we paid the price.

[nutbean 8,838]

I reckon Prendergast went well against conventional thinking with Gysberts, Cook and Strauss, who all went earlier than expected at the time, and we paid the price.

damned if you do ..damned if you don't..

[Macca 16,941]

Not really hard is it....

I get the whole venting thing - we've all done that to varying degrees.

But to continue on without eventually applying logic and common sense is just silly.

I reckon Prendergast went well against conventional thinking with Gysberts, Cook and Strauss, who all went earlier than expected at the time, and we paid the price.

I've read the threads on those 3 players and what you are saying wasn't necessarily being said at the time (at least by the large majority here on this site) Lucas Cook didn't have too many detractors (initially) IIRC ... after all, he was an AA CHF in his final TAC year. Some here were calling Gysberts a future A grader after his first couple of games.

A select few might have got it right but I've yet to ever come across anyone who can make these calls and continue to get it right. They all get it horribly wrong at least half the time but they'll rarely admit as much. Like a gambler who will only tell you about his or her wins.

Trying to explain all the vagaries of the draft is a fruitless exercise. The science that goes into drafting is much better these days than in it's fledgling years but it's still far from being a perfect system.

Strangely enough, even though I knock the draft, I have come to terms with it's inconsistent outcomes.

My point about conventional thinking with Prendergast was specific to Scully & Trengove - were we ever going to trade away either pick?

The same could almost be said about Petracca & Brayshaw but we can never be absolutely sure - my guess is we would have needed a super offer to trade away from snaring both those 2 players and that offer never came.

.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Macca

[The Gunslinger 41]

Just like Sylvia and McLean? No expert rated Wines above Toumpas. Point to one. You lot are pathetic. Really the hindsight thing is just stupid. Are you still agonising over the teacher overlooking you for lunch monitor in grade 4?

It wasn't Grade 4, it was Grade 3, I got over it just last year!

[nutbean 8,838]

I get the whole venting thing - we've all done that to varying degrees.

But to continue on without eventually applying logic and common sense is just silly.

This what gets me - Am I miffed that we were considering both Wines and Toumpas and it appears we picked the wrong one - sure.

But to suggest we need to ask Todd Viney why at draft time when he was offered the choice of two players - one that was considered a better choice than the other - why did he pick what was considered the better player at time - is sheer nonsense.

No amount of venting is going to alter history to suggest that Wines was a no brainer at that time.

As each draft goes by I am more and more certain that the gulf between TAC and AFL ( and even AFL and SANFL/WAFL) is immense for these young players.

There is nothing more certain that clubs will pick what is considered good talent that just never materialises - I just hope it isn't our club.

[The Gunslinger 41]

bang on mate 100%

It is why i am suprised that so many supporters have been so forgiving

We should have been able to take actions at certain AGM's but certain topics were off limits

The Toumpas fiasco (let's remember he can only play out a half of footy at Casey as of last week) was the final act from our past, it may still be the worst

Against any midfield of genuine talent we are still eons away after 10 seasons

People keep telling me to "Let it go..."

Amazing.

Hey SWYL, I would hate to see what you would be saying if you were a Tiges supporter vis - a - vis Tambling being picked before Franklin. Murder and mayhem methinks!

[nutbean 8,838]

Strangely enough, even though I knock the draft, I have come to terms with it.

So have I -I realise what an imperfect science it is. I go back through the last 10 drafts ( and then some) and see that what was considered top 10 talent at draft day didn't pan out that way during those players careers to date. I see that if you reordered the draft now based on output not one draft would like anything like the order the names were called out - That's the reality.

I am dubious if we had the right culture in the past - a culture that pushed for excellence - a culture that nurtured and developed talent. I am unsure on some of our picks if they didn't have the talent or we didn't have the support coaches, staff or players around them to bring out the best.

I do believe this is less of an issue now - if there is talent in what we draft now I think we have the structure to bring it to the fore ( my only small knock is it easier to be a budding footballer in a team when you have great players around you. Jesse Hogan would find it easier to develop at the Swans where he would be the third tall behind Buddy and Tippett. )

[daisycutter 29,605]

i seem to remember it was hannibal's fault we went for toumpas

he argued endlessly we needed a silky classy outside mid to complement viney's infield talents, not two of a kind

yep, definitely hannibal's fault

[Slartibartfast 17,222]

i seem to remember it was hannibal's fault we went for toumpas

he argued endlessly we needed a silky classy outside mid to complement viney's infield talents, not two of a kind

yep, definitely hannibal's fault

Shame he doesn't post here any more because I'm sure he'd give you an explanation.

[Damo 3,347]

I get the whole venting thing - we've all done that to varying degrees.

But to continue on without eventually applying logic and common sense is just silly.

I've read the threads on those 3 players and what you are saying wasn't necessarily being said at the time (at least by the large majority here on this site) Lucas Cook didn't have too many detractors (initially) IIRC ... after all, he was an AA CHF in his final TAC year. Some here were calling Gysberts a future A grader after his first couple of games.

Sorry Macca, Lucas Cook was eyebrow raising to nearly everyone if I remember correctly. Gysberts was not expected to go so early but viewed as if BBBP had inside info.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Franky_31

[Roost It 1,434]

All clubs "waste" more draft picks than they get right. Everyone had Scully and Trengove at 1 and 2 Watts was 1 or 2 in everyone's opinion

Let's just hope Brayshaw and Petracca break the cycle

Asking Todd Viney 2 years later is a waste of breath and the question of an imbecile

Edited May 5, 2015 by Roost It

[The Gunslinger 41]

No one individual, or group should be held accountable for draft choices, you pick the player you think is the most suitable for you when it comes to your choice. Sometimes you will get it right, sometimes wrong, get over it, no one is going to make the right decision every time.

Were we fully aware of Toumpas' bad hips at the time we picked him? If so then we clearly thought he was still the best player available.

What do you think happened to the Portland Trail Blazers recruiters in 1984 when they took Sam Bowie (who?) at pick 2 when Michael Jordan and Charles Barkley went at picks 3 and 5 respectively? Nothing, they picked who they believed was the best available, even though they were aware that he had serious leg problems.

Give Toumpas a chance, I still think he will be a very good long term Demon. And we need players like him.

[Slartibartfast 17,222]

Asking Todd Viney 2 years later is a waste of breath and the question of an imbecile

Right on both counts.

[Macca 16,941]

This what gets me - Am I miffed that we were considering both Wines and Toumpas and it appears we picked the wrong one - sure.

But to suggest we need to ask Todd Viney why at draft time when he was offered the choice of two players - one that was considered a better choice than the other - why did he pick what was considered the better player at time - is sheer nonsense.

No amount of venting is going to alter history to suggest that Wines was a no brainer at that time.

As each draft goes by I am more and more certain that the gulf between TAC and AFL ( and even AFL and SANFL/WAFL) is immense for these young players.

There is nothing more certain that clubs will pick what is considered good talent that just never materialises - I just hope it isn't our club.

Many people have been brought up with the draft and it's all they know.

They don't question it enough possibly because the draft as a whole doesn't get questioned enough by the clubs and the footy media. Roos himself has had some damning things to say about the whole drafting process but he doesn't influence my thinking.

Sorry Macca, Lucas Cook was eyebrow raising to nearly everyone if I remember correctly. Gysberts was not expected to go so early but viewed as if BBBP had inside info.

These 2 early threads on Lucas contains a number of complimentary appraisals Franky (a few detractors as well it must be said)

Lucas Cook (I) & Lucas Cook (II)

And this thread on Jordan ...

This Week's Rising Star = Jordan Gysberts

.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Macca

[P-man 13,366]

Still may be the worse ? That's the way - keep waiting for everything to play out - then you can look back in the rear vision with more confidence and criticise. That's a pretty easy gig.

You mean to say you haven't heard the story of WYL breaking his radio when Toumpas' name was called out? That one is my favourite.

[bing181 9,197]

Shame he doesn't post here any more because I'm sure he'd give you an explanation.

He posts here all the time. Visit the Watts thread.

[JV7 2,350]

Mike should confirm if the Mark Neeld/lollies in the coach's box story and the story of his run in with Stefan Martin are true.

What's the mark neeld & lollies coaches box story ?

[nutbean 8,838]

Roos himself has had some damning things to say about the whole drafting process but he doesn't influence my thinking.

.

I wish i could find a link to one article he spoke about the draft - he pretty much called it tattslotto - for all the reasons that have been outlined previously. I think he has also made his peace with the draft on the same understanding that there is just not enough exposed form at the highest level from players that are so far from mature to be able to confidently predict how their careers will pan out.

[The Gunslinger 41]

What's the mark neeld & lollies coaches box story ?

Yeah, c'mon tell the story.

[jackaub 1,402]

No one individual, or group should be held accountable for draft choices, you pick the player you think is the most suitable for you when it comes to your choice. Sometimes you will get it right, sometimes wrong, get over it, no one is going to make the right decision every time.

Were we fully aware of Toumpas' bad hips at the time we picked him? If so then we clearly thought he was still the best player available.

What do you think happened to the Portland Trail Blazers recruiters in 1984 when they took Sam Bowie (who?) at pick 2 when Michael Jordan and Charles Barkley went at picks 3 and 5 respectively? Nothing, they picked who they believed was the best available, even though they were aware that he had serious leg problems.

Give Toumpas a chance, I still think he will be a very good long term Demon. And we need players like him.

Forgive me Gunslinger but methinks that is definitely shooting from the hip

[Sir Why You Little 36,990]

Hey SWYL, I would hate to see what you would be saying if you were a Tiges supporter vis - a - vis Tambling being picked before Franklin. Murder and mayhem methinks!

My Grandfather was born and raised in Richmond

So it was a close shave if dad hadn't been MCC!!

[nutbean 8,838]

My Grandfather was born and raised in Richmond

So it was a close shave if dad hadn't been MCC!!

you see...it could be worse...you could have been a Richmond supporter

[Sir Why You Little 36,990]

you see...it could be worse...you could have been a Richmond supporter

Correct. But dad would never allow it. So it was thankfully not going to happen

Richmond getting 65-70,000 members is quite incredible considering what they have dished up since 1982.

[The Song Formerly Known As 6,479]

Yeah, c'mon tell the story.

dug this up from demonland a few years back, posted by TGR in 2013, i assume it was Neeled running a "tight ship" of sorts:

In one corner, you have the Malthouse assistants who were basically his sycophants, who were doomed to failure. These guys got great references from the great man. I heard the Neeldy wanted 350k at Carlton in 2014 and the board laughed. Also, heard that many in the club asked "what have we done (appointing him)" a few days in to his tenure. Also heard that several staff approached Connolly before round 6 in Neeld's first year seeking his removal. Connolly's reply was "finances will keep him here". Whether the word "unfortunately" was used at the end of his reply, I cannot rule in or out. As I have said long ago, the "Brett Lovett No Lollies No Coaches Box entry" story will be legendary for years to come" as will the "Mitch Clark wearing the wrong color shoe laces to training so go home" story.

Edited May 5, 2015 by The Song Formerly Known As