On 20/06/2016 at 00:52, ProDee said:

Some are concerned his tackles are going from 1.4 to 1.2 (which is approx. 3 tackles over 13 rounds).  That's the level of debate provided by some.  Ever checked the numbers of nearly all the great key forwards ?

But let's get the facts straight.  In the first 13 games Hogan played last year he made 13 tackles.  In the first 13 games this year he's made 18.  So even the point that was being made is factually incorrect.  He's made 5 more tackles this year from the same amount of games.

Hogan is the best young talent to come the club in 40 years, but naturally enough there are those who would rather concern themselves about his perceived lack of pressure in the forward 50.  Of all the things to dwell on they think a hulking 195cm forward could apply more defensive pressure.

It's about 77 on the list of things you could highlight or be concerned about.  Jeff Garlett being down an average of one tackle per game is of more concern, because that's a strong part of the role of a small forward.

Wait, so you talk about silly stats and then start comparing "first 13 games"?

It's amazing that you will crucify Watts for his lack of contested play and second efforts, yet golden boy is immune to such criticisms.

But hey, if you're happy with just "talent" rather than a competitor then that makes your Watts bias even more ridiculous.

I know it's not like you to try and change the context of a discussion to suit your own agenda, but no one is saying Hogan isn't an amazing talent, some are simply wanting him to improve in his second efforts and work rate. It may be hard for you to understand, but there are actually things Hogan can improve upon.

Oh, and comparing other "great key forwards"? At the same age, Lance Franklin averaged about twice as many tackles and twice as many goals. Now, before you madly mash your keyboard, remember YOU were the one wanting to bring that up, and literally NO ONE is saying Hogan isn't supremely talented. We're just wanting some improvement in certain areas, a bit like you with Watts....

 

  On 17/05/2016 at 06:22, binman said:

I agree. A good analogy is pro golfers. The best players hit pressure shots under the gun because of swings that are metronomic.

Same goes for nba basketballers. The best shot i have ever seen is curry. His shooting action is pure and the same from wherever he shoots from on the court.

The main problem  with hogan is that his run up and action is a little different  every time

says you.

  On 20/06/2016 at 01:21, stuie said:

Wait, so you talk about silly stats and then start comparing "first 13 games"?

It's amazing that you will crucify Watts for his lack of contested play and second efforts, yet golden boy is immune to such criticisms.

But hey, if you're happy with just "talent" rather than a competitor then that makes your Watts bias even more ridiculous.

I know it's not like you to try and change the context of a discussion to suit your own agenda, but no one is saying Hogan isn't an amazing talent, some are simply wanting him to improve in his second efforts and work rate. It may be hard for you to understand, but there are actually things Hogan can improve upon.

Oh, and comparing other "great key forwards"? At the same age, Lance Franklin averaged about twice as many tackles and twice as many goals. Now, before you madly mash your keyboard, remember YOU were the one wanting to bring that up, and literally NO ONE is saying Hogan isn't supremely talented. We're just wanting some improvement in certain areas, a bit like you with Watts....

 

Hang on.  Are you related to Bub ?

YOU were the one comparing his tackles this year compared to last.  YOU.  And if you're going to compare one year to the next you have to use the games in the subsequent year, which in this case is 13.  Last year he averaged 1.25 tackles for the WHOLE year and this year he's averaging 1.4 tackles.  YOU got YOUR stats wrong whichever way you want to slice it or dice it.  Change your post which gives the incorrect numbers.

And let's keep going with your stats.  Last year Hogan averaged 2.4 contested marks per game.  This year he averaged 2.4 contested marks per game, i.e. the same, before yesterday's game.  How many contested marks did you think he was going take in the pouring rain ?  Talk about disingenuity.  Before Sunday this stat was identical.  It's incredible that you would bring up a stat that can change from one round to the next.

So we've now demolished 2 of your stats.  Your other stat, i.e. disposal efficiency, is arguably the most useless stat in the AFL.  James Frawley came in the top 15 last year and is top 30 this year.  Haha.  Good stat.

And in the post above you question his "work rate".  His work rate is superb.  The ground he covers for a key forward is superb and acknowledged by all paid to analyse the game.

But let's look at some other stats.  He averages more marks inside 50 this year, (3.2 > 2.6), more disposals (15.5 > 13.1), more marks in general (7.1 > 6.7), more goal assists, and more shots at goal (3.85 > 3.15).  Oh and more tackles (1.4 > 1.25).

Most importantly, he's a young player with 30 odd games and is no doubt working on all aspects of his game.  He's rarely out-marked and the contests he makes every week are nothing short of outstanding.  He's constantly providing opportunities for others and I repeat has an exceptional work rate.

Rather than analysing football stick to your silly gifs.

 

Edited June 20, 20168 yr by ProDee

  On 20/06/2016 at 02:00, ProDee said:

Hang on.  Are you related to Bub ?

YOU were the one comparing his tackles this year compared to last.  YOU.  And if you're going to compare one year to the next you have to use the games in the subsequent year, which in this case is 13.  Last year he averaged 1.25 tackles for the WHOLE year and this year he's averaging 1.4 tackles.  YOU got YOUR stats wrong whichever way you want to slice it or dice it.  Change your post which gives the incorrect numbers.

And let's keep going with your stats.  Last year Hogan averaged 2.4 contested marks per game.  This year he averaged 2.4 contested marks per game, i.e. the same, before yesterday's game.  How many contested marks did you think he was going take in the pouring rain ?  Talk about disingenuity.  Before Sunday this stat was identical.  It's incredible that you would bring up a stat that can change from one round to the next.

So we've now demolished 2 of your stats.  Your other stat, i.e. disposal efficiency, is arguably the most useless stat in the AFL.  James Frawley came in the top 15 last year and is top 30 this year.  Haha.  Good stat.

And in the post above you question his "work rate".  His work rate is superb.  The ground he covers for a key forward is superb and acknowledged by all paid to analyse the game.

But let's look at some other stats.  He averages more marks inside 50 this year, (3.2 > 2.6), more disposals (15.5 > 13.1), more marks in general (7.1 > 6.7), more goal assists, and more shots at goal (3.85 > 3.15).  Oh and more tackles (1.4 > 1.25).

Most importantly, he's a young player with 30 odd games and is no doubt working on all aspects of his game.  He's rarely out-marked and the contests he makes every week are nothing short of outstanding.  He's constantly providing opportunities for others and I repeat has an exceptional work rate.

Rather than analysing football stick to your sill gifs.

 

You're right "ProDee" he's the perfect player and has absolutely nothing to work on in his game. Who needs second efforts or to apply pressure when your job is purely to finish off other people's hard work (as long as you mark it the first time and don't have to win the ball back or try a second time).

I pointed out the silliness and hypocrisy of you decrying others for posting stats with minimal differences and then you do it AGAIN. Amazing. But you don't stop there, you take your "first 13 games" farce even further by starting to qualify your stats with "the same, before yesterday's game" and the absolute gem "How many contested marks did you think he was going take in the pouring rain ?  Talk about disingenuity". Of course, there's also the fact that you've pointed out comparing 13 games to a whole season isn't fair, but then that didn't stop you from doing it with the stats that you'd like to use in your favour. Hilarious. Almost as hilarious as an "intellectual heavyweight" (note: the quotation marks in that cnotext imply sarcasm, just for your reference) like you totally overlooking the ironic nature of my stats post (have you not read my countless posts about DE%?) due to blind rage of your golden boy actually being held to account.

Oh, and just for you, here's a silly pic of your good self....

 

Edited June 20, 20168 yr by stuie

  On 20/06/2016 at 02:10, stuie said:

You're right "ProDee" he's the perfect player and has absolutely nothing to work on in his game. Who needs second efforts or to apply pressure when your job is purely to finish off other people's hard work (as long as you mark it the first time and don't have to win the ball back or try a second time).

I pointed out the silliness and hypocrisy of you decrying others for posting stats with minimal differences and then you do it AGAIN. Amazing. But you don't stop there, you take your "first 13 games" farce even further by starting to qualify your stats with "the same, before yesterday's game" and the absolute gem "How many contested marks did you think he was going take in the pouring rain ?  Talk about disingenuity". Of course, there's also the fact that you've pointed out comparing 13 games to a whole season isn't fair, but then that didn't stop you from doing it with the stats that you'd like to use in your favour. Hilarious. Almost as hilarious as an :intellectual heavyweight" like you totally overlooking the ironic nature of my stats post (have you not read my countless posts about DE%?) due to blind rage of your golden boy actually being held to account.

YOUR stats are wrong.  You posted that he averaged 1.4 tackles in 2015 and 1.2 in 2016.  This is INCORRECT.  He averages 1.4 this year and 1.25 LAST year.  This point still escapes you.

I also said "he's a young player with 30 odd games and is no doubt working on all aspects of his game", which you either didn't read or once again chose to ignore.

By all means hold him to account, but when YOU bring up stats at least get them right.  And the contested marks stat was beyond a joke.  He's top 3 (equal) in the competition and was the same as last year before yesterday's game.

Anyway, enough of you, Stu. You don't warrant further time from me or anybody else.

  On 20/06/2016 at 02:19, ProDee said:

YOUR stats are wrong.  You posted that he averaged 1.4 tackles in 2015 and 1.2 in 2016.  This is INCORRECT.  He averages 1.4 this year and 1.25 LAST year.  This point still escapes you.

I also said "he's a young player with 30 odd games and is no doubt working on all aspects of his game", which you either didn't read or once again chose to ignore.

By all means hold him to account, but when YOU bring up stats at least get them right.  And the contested marks stat was beyond a joke.  He's top 3 (equal) in the competition and was the same as last year before yesterday's game.

Anyway, enough of you, Stu. You don't warrant further time from me or anybody else.

  On 20/06/2016 at 02:19, ProDee said:

YOUR stats are wrong.  You posted that he averaged 1.4 tackles in 2015 and 1.2 in 2016.  This is INCORRECT.  He averages 1.4 this year and 1.25 LAST year.  This point still escapes you.

 

  On 20/06/2016 at 00:52, ProDee said:

Some are concerned his tackles are going from 1.4 to 1.2 (which is approx. 3 tackles over 13 rounds).  That's the level of debate provided by some. 

 

  On 20/06/2016 at 01:39, jnrmac said:

says you.

Says me too.

His run up a for a professional footballer, and a full forward no less is just terrible.
The sooner he sorts it out the better.
 

Edited June 20, 20168 yr by Fork 'em

  On 20/06/2016 at 01:39, jnrmac said:

says you.

Me too. I'm sure his set shot routine will be worked on over time, but it's not good atm. 

  On 20/06/2016 at 02:38, Moonshadow said:

Me too. I'm sure his set shot routine will be worked on over time, but it's not good atm. 

Hopefully he's transitioning from "wobbly" to "consistent/sweet "

  On 20/06/2016 at 02:24, stuie said:

 

 

Yes, I quoted your incorrect stats and then proceeded to note that they were incorrect.

The point being that if the were correct (they weren't) it wouldn't have mattered anyway.  1.4 to 1.2 would have been a non-issue if your stats were correct.  Which, of course, they weren't.

You are a blight on this site, but tolerated for some mystical reason.

Not be me anymore.

 

  On 20/06/2016 at 02:52, ProDee said:

Yes, I quoted your incorrect stats and then proceeded to note that they were incorrect.

The point being that if the were correct (they weren't) it wouldn't have mattered anyway.  1.4 to 1.2 would have been a non-issue if your stats were correct.  Which, of course, they weren't.

So you were just arguing for the sake of it? That's the actual point then right?

Doesn't sound like you at all, everyone is a troll here other than you and your untouchable analysis of the game that you bless our mere mortals with.

All hail.

 

  On 20/06/2016 at 02:52, ProDee said:

Yes, I quoted your incorrect stats and then proceeded to note that they were incorrect.

The point being that if the were correct (they weren't) it wouldn't have mattered anyway.  1.4 to 1.2 would have been a non-issue if your stats were correct.  Which, of course, they weren't.

You are a blight on this site, but tolerated for some mystical reason.

Not be me anymore.

 

Oh, go on.

I'd have to do some actual work if I didn't have yours and Stuie's posts to read!

  On 20/06/2016 at 02:34, Fork 'em said:

Says me too.

His run up a for a professional footballer, and a full forward no less is just terrible.
The sooner he sorts it out the better.
 

Who cares about his run up.  Have you not seen Josh Kennedy from WC

  On 20/06/2016 at 02:34, Fork 'em said:

Says me too.

His run up a for a professional footballer, and a full forward no less is just terrible.
The sooner he sorts it out the better.
 

I was responding to the poster that says he has a different run up every time unlike other footballers. I am not sure that is right.

And on his kicking style, I couldn't care less if it goes through the big sticks, Jim Furyk has one of the most ridiculous golf swings ever (my favourite description of it is by David Feherty - it's like he is trying to kill a snake in a phone box.....) but he has just come 2nd in the US Open. What the swing looks like doesn't matter so long as it is repeatable. 

Ditto Hogan's kick.

 

  On 20/06/2016 at 03:30, Demons11 said:

Who cares about his run up.  Have you not seen Josh Kennedy from WC

It's not alright cause it aint as bad as someone elses.
Kennedy worked on it and is alot better now.
Hopefully Hogan does the same.

 

  On 20/06/2016 at 04:19, jnrmac said:

I was responding to the poster that says he has a different run up every time unlike other footballers. I am not sure that is right.

And on his kicking style, I couldn't care less if it goes through the big sticks, Jim Furyk has one of the most ridiculous golf swings ever (my favourite description of it is by David Feherty - it's like he is trying to kill a snake in a phone box.....) but he has just come 2nd in the US Open. What the swing looks like doesn't matter so long as it is repeatable. 

Ditto Hogan's kick.

 

I'm not sure Hogans is the same.
I do know it's all forked up though.

 

Edited June 20, 20168 yr by Fork 'em

  On 20/06/2016 at 02:00, ProDee said:

Hang on.  Are you related to Bub ?

YOU were the one comparing his tackles this year compared to last.  YOU.  And if you're going to compare one year to the next you have to use the games in the subsequent year, which in this case is 13.  Last year he averaged 1.25 tackles for the WHOLE year and this year he's averaging 1.4 tackles.  YOU got YOUR stats wrong whichever way you want to slice it or dice it.  Change your post which gives the incorrect numbers.

And let's keep going with your stats.  Last year Hogan averaged 2.4 contested marks per game.  This year he averaged 2.4 contested marks per game, i.e. the same, before yesterday's game.  How many contested marks did you think he was going take in the pouring rain ?  Talk about disingenuity.  Before Sunday this stat was identical.  It's incredible that you would bring up a stat that can change from one round to the next.

So we've now demolished 2 of your stats.  Your other stat, i.e. disposal efficiency, is arguably the most useless stat in the AFL.  James Frawley came in the top 15 last year and is top 30 this year.  Haha.  Good stat.

And in the post above you question his "work rate".  His work rate is superb.  The ground he covers for a key forward is superb and acknowledged by all paid to analyse the game.

But let's look at some other stats.  He averages more marks inside 50 this year, (3.2 > 2.6), more disposals (15.5 > 13.1), more marks in general (7.1 > 6.7), more goal assists, and more shots at goal (3.85 > 3.15).  Oh and more tackles (1.4 > 1.25).

Most importantly, he's a young player with 30 odd games and is no doubt working on all aspects of his game.  He's rarely out-marked and the contests he makes every week are nothing short of outstanding.  He's constantly providing opportunities for others and I repeat has an exceptional work rate.

Rather than analysing football stick to your silly gifs.

 

It's funny, there are stats and then there are opinions. 

IMO, if asked the question, I would say that Jesse had a moe effective and better year last year, than he is having so far this year. 

Ignoring the stats that might show something completely different, that is just an impression. Maybe I expected a bit more, who knows. 

Clearly though he has the talent to become a star. 

Agree Redleg. He looked and acted with intensity last year. Not so this year and sooking it up quite a lot. Might end up or reiwoldt with always looking at the ump for a free. 

He had sooky tendencies last year. I pointed them out on this board and got shot down. 

I think he just feels more comfortable on the field now, so there is perhaps a sense of entitlement to complain more than he did last year. His body language has gotten better the longer the season has gone on, but he is not a perfect player and anyone who refuses to see that is just being blinded by the potential.

Is he an amazing talent? Yes. Is he playing beyond his years and experience? Yes. Does he need to do better defensively and watch his body language? Yes. 

 

  On 20/06/2016 at 06:16, Jaded said:

He had sooky tendencies last year. I pointed them out on this board and got shot down. 

I think he just feels more comfortable on the field now, so there is perhaps a sense of entitlement to complain more than he did last year. His body language has gotten better the longer the season has gone on, but he is not a perfect player and anyone who refuses to see that is just being blinded by the potential.

Is he an amazing talent? Yes. Is he playing beyond his years and experience? Yes. Does he need to do better defensively and watch his body language? Yes. 

 

One of the best posts i've seen on this site in a long time

Jesse isn't perfect, and we probably rely on him far more than we'd like considering his age/experience, i do believe Jesse is just starting to understand we can win games if he doesn't dominate so the pressure to destroy opposition has lifted a little and he does seem to be enjoying things a little more. 

He isn't great defensively but he works bloody hard, so i'm sure over time that will improve, he leads right up the ground and goes behind the ball and he's really becoming a very good all round player for us.

  On 20/06/2016 at 13:51, Abe said:

One of the best posts i've seen on this site in a long time

Jesse isn't perfect, and we probably rely on him far more than we'd like considering his age/experience, i do believe Jesse is just starting to understand we can win games if he doesn't dominate so the pressure to destroy opposition has lifted a little and he does seem to be enjoying things a little more. 

He isn't great defensively but he works bloody hard, so i'm sure over time that will improve, he leads right up the ground and goes behind the ball and he's really becoming a very good all round player for us.

I agree with this, mate and with Jaded's post too, but it is frustrating to see him play for free kicks and at times fail to even provide a chase if the ball is spoiled or spilled. This happened a couple of times right in front of us on Sunday and it's not a good look.

But it's funny. I feel like he still hasn't had that break out game yet and reckon he might this year. He has the potential to kick 10+, it's really only a matter of time.

But first he has to work on his attitude, his defensive work rate and keep things simple with his kicking action.

  On 20/06/2016 at 22:26, AdamPleb said:

I agree with this, mate and with Jaded's post too, but it is frustrating to see him play for free kicks and at times fail to even provide a chase if the ball is spoiled or spilled. This happened a couple of times right in front of us on Sunday and it's not a good look.

But it's funny. I feel like he still hasn't had that break out game yet and reckon he might this year. He has the potential to kick 10+, it's really only a matter of time.

But first he has to work on his attitude, his defensive work rate and keep things simple with his kicking action.

He's definitely got a bit to work on with his attitude, i'm really confident Sam Weiderman holds the key to this not happening anymore, when he comes in and shows how talented he is the three pronged attack of Watts, Hogan, Weiderman will be far to dangerous for Hogan to be double and triple teamed and he'll be able to build that confidence in game much easier on a week to week basis.

  On 20/06/2016 at 13:51, Abe said:

One of the best posts i've seen on this site in a long time

Jesse isn't perfect, and we probably rely on him far more than we'd like considering his age/experience, i do believe Jesse is just starting to understand we can win games if he doesn't dominate so the pressure to destroy opposition has lifted a little and he does seem to be enjoying things a little more. 

He isn't great defensively but he works bloody hard, so i'm sure over time that will improve, he leads right up the ground and goes behind the ball and he's really becoming a very good all round player for us.

True - in fact we've looked at our best when Jesse gets on his bike and roams round the ground, rather than planting himself 20m out trying to kick a bag and save the day.

I doubt we'll see the very best abilities of Hogan until he decides where he wants to play....and I don't mean on the ground !!  

No one gives 100% til you commit 100%  It's called  Human Nature  ( please ...no memes )