On 20/01/2016 at 05:13, Curry & Beer said:

correct correct correct

same with every single other high draft pick that didn't pan out for us over the last decade

all picked exactly where they were supposed to be

Not really 'C & B' but many of them were.

Cook was taken earlier than expected as was Gysberts a couple of others could be argued about as well.

...but there is no doubt Scully & Watts were consistently talked about as no.1 picks.

  On 20/01/2016 at 05:42, rjay said:

Not really 'C & B' but many of them were.

Cook was taken earlier than expected as was Gysberts a couple of others could be argued about as well.

...but there is no doubt Scully & Watts were consistently talked about as no.1 picks.

they're the only two that can even be argued about and they weren't that high in the draft

Patrons are advised that the new Chris Dawes dartboard is being replaced. The darts weren't sticking.

  On 20/01/2016 at 05:42, rjay said:

Not really 'C & B' but many of them were.

Cook was taken earlier than expected as was Gysberts a couple of others could be argued about as well.

...but there is no doubt Scully & Watts were consistently talked about as no.1 picks.

It will be interesting to see how we go with Oliver as he only came into contention later in the season and touted as our top pick in the last couple of weeks

Darcy Parish was certainly "conventional wisdom" for most of the year.

 

 

  On 20/01/2016 at 20:38, nutbean said:

It will be interesting to see how we go with Oliver as he only came into contention later in the season and touted as our top pick in the last couple of weeks

Darcy Parish was certainly "conventional wisdom" for most of the year.

 

 

fair call

there will be plenty of fun to be had by the whingers if Parish looks better than Oliver early

  On 20/01/2016 at 21:23, Curry & Beer said:

fair call

there will be plenty of fun to be had by the whingers if Parish looks better than Oliver early

absolutely....

I am still firmly in the "development is king" camp.

I cannot fathom that we had that many footballers come to our club that either failed completely or plateaued at "average at best".

I maintain that if you get footballers with some raw talent into a cesspool of a club both on and off field and give them no further tuition or nurture them and basically throw them to the wolves they will ultimately wither on the vine ( unless you are a rare driven specimen like Nathan Jones).

I also do not think you can downplay having good role models, mature footballers in your club to help transition youth. This has been absent from our club and to an extent is still in short supply. 

My greatest delight with the Roos appointment is he firmly put development on the table - he constantly talks about and has backed it up by putting a lot of resources into developing our youth  - McCartney to my mind, is an inspired appointment.

  On 20/01/2016 at 07:39, P-man said:

Patrons are advised that the new Chris Dawes dartboard is being replaced. The darts weren't sticking.

Oh Wonderful P-man

Go to the top of the class.

the story i have always heard is that neeld overruled viney, right up to when we picked up kennedy at the end of last year and emma quayle said he was the player we were looking at with #4.

 

whether it's true or an apocryphal tale is another matter altogether.

  On 20/01/2016 at 22:03, DemonAndrew said:

the story i have always heard is that neeld overruled viney, right up to when we picked up kennedy at the end of last year and emma quayle said he was the player we were looking at with #4.

 

whether it's true or an apocryphal tale is another matter altogether.

Wasn't Ox quoted here as stating on SEN that Neeld overruled Viney on Wines/Toump.

There was also a media report at the time of a falling out between Viney & Neeld but it was never elaborated upon but the timing of draft time led me to assume it was the Wines/Toump issue.

  On 19/01/2016 at 10:02, Grapeviney said:

Someone with good photoshop skills should put the current Demons guernsey on them both then put it up on Ollies  Twitter feed. 

Imagine the PA fans response.....

  On 20/01/2016 at 04:42, stuie said:

Really? Not according to pretty much everyone that isn't just using hindsight...

Herald Sun 2012 Phantom Draft

AFL.com 2012 Phantom Draft

Knightmares 2012 Phantom Draft

Emma Quayle's 2012 Phantom Draft

 

Take note of who ALL of them have us taking at number 4 and where Wines is in relation to that.

 

People hate the truth. They would rather hide in the shadows of fiction, it makes them feel better.

Bravo Stuie. 

  On 20/01/2016 at 04:42, stuie said:

Really? Not according to pretty much everyone that isn't just using hindsight...

Herald Sun 2012 Phantom Draft

AFL.com 2012 Phantom Draft

Knightmares 2012 Phantom Draft

Emma Quayle's 2012 Phantom Draft

 

Take note of who ALL of them have us taking at number 4 and where Wines is in relation to that.

 

Look at the dates, excluding Knightmare's, they're are all one or two days before the draft. Each and every year they seem to change from what was previously touted as they are given the inside word regarding the way in which it will fall.

The journos don't have them independently ranked via their own talent identification, they are simply in the know how a couple days prior. For example Cal Twomey's changes drastically over the final month from his own identification to the inside word.

As for spirit of norm smith's original quote and your's and C&B's question, David Schwarz presented on SEN radio that Viney wanted Wines whereas Neeld overruled his decision - and I sure as hell believe the direct nature of his sources. I had also independently heard something similar a year or so prior regarding a dispute between the selection of Wines and Toumpas but wasn't sure who supported who.

REFERENCE FOUND!

LISTEN TO THE POD CAST, STATED AT 2:50 min/sec

http://www.sen.com.au/news-archive/08-15/schwarz-dees-fans-not-copping-blame#SCLOzfo4hld1vaEv.97

Edited January 21, 20169 yr by ignition.

  On 21/01/2016 at 11:16, ignition. said:

Look at the dates, excluding Knightmare's, they're are all one or two days before the draft. Each and every year they seem to change from what was previously touted as they are given the inside word regarding the way in which it will fall.

The journos don't have them independently ranked via their own talent identification, they are simply in the know how a couple days prior. For example Cal Twomey's changes drastically over the final month from his own identification to the inside word.

As for spirit of norm smith's original quote and your's and C&B's question, David Schwarz presented on SEN radio that Viney wanted Wines whereas Neeld overruled his decision - and I sure as hell believe the direct nature of his sources. I had also independently heard something similar a year or so prior regarding a dispute between the selection of Wines and Toumpas but wasn't sure who supported who.

REFERENCE FOUND!

LISTEN TO THE POD CAST, STATED AT 2:50 min/sec

http://www.sen.com.au/news-archive/08-15/schwarz-dees-fans-not-copping-blame#SCLOzfo4hld1vaEv.97

Insightful post, top work!

I don't think anyone is arguing against the whole Neeld overrule thing though are they? The phantom drafts were posted in reference to people saying we've taken so many "shock draft picks" where we've pulled something out of left field and not taken the player we were expected to with that pick. It's revisionism of the highest order to say Wines was always rated higher than Toumpas pre-draft, as some posters have suggested, especially given Wines' eventual draft order.

  On 21/01/2016 at 21:52, stuie said:

Insightful post, top work!

I don't think anyone is arguing against the whole Neeld overrule thing though are they? The phantom drafts were posted in reference to people saying we've taken so many "shock draft picks" where we've pulled something out of left field and not taken the player we were expected to with that pick. It's revisionism of the highest order to say Wines was always rated higher than Toumpas pre-draft, as some posters have suggested, especially given Wines' eventual draft order.

"retrogenius" - those who look back in time, armed with current data and rewrite history - "it was so obvious that Wines was the better choice than Toumpas".

As stated previously - these boards may go into meltdown if Parish turns out much better than Oliver as Parish was more the highly fancied pick. 

  On 21/01/2016 at 11:16, ignition. said:

Look at the dates, excluding Knightmare's, they're are all one or two days before the draft. Each and every year they seem to change from what was previously touted as they are given the inside word regarding the way in which it will fall.

The journos don't have them independently ranked via their own talent identification, they are simply in the know how a couple days prior. For example Cal Twomey's changes drastically over the final month from his own identification to the inside word.

As for spirit of norm smith's original quote and your's and C&B's question, David Schwarz presented on SEN radio that Viney wanted Wines whereas Neeld overruled his decision - and I sure as hell believe the direct nature of his sources. I had also independently heard something similar a year or so prior regarding a dispute between the selection of Wines and Toumpas but wasn't sure who supported who.

REFERENCE FOUND!

LISTEN TO THE POD CAST, STATED AT 2:50 min/sec

http://www.sen.com.au/news-archive/08-15/schwarz-dees-fans-not-copping-blame#SCLOzfo4hld1vaEv.97

Great post ignition. Nailed it.

Also Ignition, here's a few pre-2012 draft lists that aren't based on club gossip and just talent.

Emma Quayle 2012 Talent List (Note who's at number 4)

Shifter's Top 2012 Draft Prospects Widely considered the best judge of talent around, he had Toumpas at number 3.

Let's stop the revisionism and realize we took Toumpas exactly where he should have gone based on pre-draft info.

  On 21/01/2016 at 22:32, stuie said:

Also Ignition, here's a few pre-2012 draft lists that aren't based on club gossip and just talent.

Emma Quayle 2012 Talent List (Note who's at number 4)

Shifter's Top 2012 Draft Prospects Widely considered the best judge of talent around, he had Toumpas at number 3.

Let's stop the revisionism and realize we took Toumpas exactly where he should have gone based on pre-draft info.

 

  On 21/01/2016 at 22:32, stuie said:

Also Ignition, here's a few pre-2012 draft lists that aren't based on club gossip and just talent.

Emma Quayle 2012 Talent List (Note who's at number 4)

Shifter's Top 2012 Draft Prospects Widely considered the best judge of talent around, he had Toumpas at number 3.

Let's stop the revisionism and realize we took Toumpas exactly where he should have gone based on pre-draft info.

Emma also had Ben Kennedy at #10, given that both Daniher and Viney were locked away as FS picks.

  On 22/01/2016 at 01:19, CBDees said:

 

Emma also had Ben Kennedy at #10, given that both Daniher and Viney were locked away as FS picks.

I don't even think Ben Kennedy has had much opportunity. He looked very good during the NAB cup last year, and looked good in patches in 2014. Collingwood have just been blessed with such a dominant midfield, and even before 2015, they had Beams lock down a position in 2014 and have a great year. Beams left and Crisp, Adams and Sidebottom stood up. Kennedy just couldn't break in. He will be a good pick up for us, and I still think he'll be a top 10 player of that draft. Emma will be justified IMO. I like Kennedy, he is a go-getta.

Some had Stringer as low as 20.

It is in many respects a lottery,  as you are guessing not who are the best juniors, but who will develop into the best AFL players.

Then there are factors like injury, development, opportunity and the assistance of good players around you.

 

  On 22/01/2016 at 01:47, Redleg said:

Some had Stringer as low as 20.

It is in many respects a lottery,  as you are guessing not who are the best juniors, but who will develop into the best AFL players.

Then there are factors like injury, development, opportunity and the assistance of good players around you.

 

That is the big one for me and as we have found out being a good junior means little when you start playing against the men.

  On 21/01/2016 at 22:32, stuie said:

Also Ignition, here's a few pre-2012 draft lists that aren't based on club gossip and just talent.

Emma Quayle 2012 Talent List (Note who's at number 4)

Shifter's Top 2012 Draft Prospects Widely considered the best judge of talent around, he had Toumpas at number 3.

Let's stop the revisionism and realize we took Toumpas exactly where he should have gone based on pre-draft info.

 

Again Emma's was published 4 days before the draft primarily based off know how, she then published an altered version the morning of the draft (your previous link) where she near nailed the top ten by only have Stringer and Macrae in the wrong order (again by know how).

Shifter's who I agree would be one of the most knowledgeable, is not ranked but merely the top 30 prospects in no particular order (the associated link is part 3).  

The fact of the matter is that T.Viney wanted Wines, whereas Neeld didn't.

Why? Because he knew the player that Wines was then, for what we all know today.

In 2012 he had the year to match with both a phenomenal championship (runner-up in the Larke) and TAC Cup.

  On 22/01/2016 at 01:47, Redleg said:

Some had Stringer as low as 20.

It is in many respects a lottery,  as you are guessing not who are the best juniors, but who will develop into the best AFL players.

Then there are factors like injury, development, opportunity and the assistance of good players around you.

 

I think that was wholly down to uncertainty as to how he would recover from an horrific broken leg.

Looking through Emma's list in hindsight, I think Viney is probably the pick of the bunch.

And we got him with F/S at 26!

  On 22/01/2016 at 02:03, ignition. said:

 

Again Emma's was published 4 days before the draft primarily based off know how, she then published an altered version the morning of the draft (your previous link) where she near nailed the top ten by only have Stringer and Macrae in the wrong order (again by know how).

Shifter's who I agree would be one of the most knowledgeable, is not ranked but merely the top 30 prospects in no particular order (the associated link is part 3).  

The fact of the matter is that T.Viney wanted Wines, whereas Neeld didn't.

Why? Because he knew the player that Wines was then, for what we all know today.

In 2012 he had the year to match with both a phenomenal championship (runner-up in the Larke) and TAC Cup.

Mate, no one is arguing about Viney wanting Wines.

Emma's article is not a phantom draft but a talent list, can't you tell the difference?

As for Shifter, did you miss this bit:

"Who wants him: The Giants will take the South Australian with one of their first three choices and he wouldn't be out of place as the top choice.
They say: "Has super ability to break the lines with his pace and agility, is also able to then finish with neat foot skills.""

 

  On 22/01/2016 at 02:27, Choke said:

Looking through Emma's list in hindsight, I think Viney is probably the pick of the bunch.

And we got him with F/S at 26!

I expected GWS to bid on Viney at the time. I think they should've as well.

Hindsight is wonderful of course, and it would've been against the tide (for them to bid on Viney at the time), but they picked outsiders anyway (who since failed).

I think everyone was surprised GWS picked O'Rourke and Plowman. Yet we cop heat over selecting Toumpas - who was rated higher than those 2.

Viney was always going to be gold at 26. I think Viney held back in the Nationals that year, and that helped us.