Poor skills aside, I thought we were taught a very good lesson in two way running and spreading.

We really need to some more quality mids in the team and one or two blistering line breakers. Players in pockets and flankers must have a capacity and ability to run through the midfield otherwise you're exposed.

I thought the decision for Pig Dog as sub was interesting. He did have an impact and I don't mind him at all, however I question 'that type' of player being the sub. I think that perhaps there is greater value in having a fast attacking player that may alter the flow of a game rather than a bollocking type. Understandably, Blease, JKH etc were not ready for a call up, however, that is the type of player than can quickly impact games with only a few possessions.

Totally agree re the lesson in two way running. Not sure whether it is a fitness thing, partly, or a matter of getting used to the idea. I am sure Roos will be pushing it, and it should come eventually. I suspect that he will take this game as a big learning experience especially in this aspect.

I think all the kids need a spell. Give them a week off/holiday and don't play them at Casey either. Tyson & Viney included. It'll help us in the long term.

For the last part of the year inject youth & the future into the side, theres no better way for Roos' message to get across.

Guys like M Jones, Bail, Terlich, Byrnes to name a few are only short term fixes, Howe is a dumb footballer - we forgive his mistakes because he takes a few high marks, inject the youth and train them up, for some reason Casey is just not working.

So for last couple of months play Toumpas, JKH, Salem, Kent, Barry(see what hes got), Hogan, Tyson, Viney, Gawn, Blease, Michie. We desperately need speed, class & some young guns to run and carry. I'd even consider tinkering with the idea of training Fitzy up as a full back, has 200cm which is handy as the forwards seem to be getting taller, has explosive speed and can jump and take a nice mark.

Anyway its definitely not doom n gloom, we just look a bit tired & our lack of class is still showing, no matter how hard we try.

By the way I think Toumpas is harshly criticised on here, definitely doesn't shy away from contests like a few suggest, also hardly did a thing wrong to be dropped in the first place. He just lacks a bit of confidence and hes not ready for the midfield, hes a wingman/flanker at this stage.

I tend to agree re the kids having a full rest - the trouble with sending them back to Casey is that they are being sent back to a dysfunctional losing environment - a bit like being promoted to MFC the past few years. It is certainly not a positive learning environment for them. Look at JKH - he was going well in the AFL but is struggling by all accounts at VFL. Nothing to learn down there, and may destroy his confidence and flare.

BUT...I doubt if it is Roos' philosophy to just "give the kids a run" - they have to earn it. But again the trouble is that Casey isn't a good place this year for development. Big dilemma. Maybe "give the kids a run" as the sub??

I think that Watts has come a long way since the arrival of Roos - he went hard at two or three physical contests and got up and kept going.

You're right about his talent.

He's a damaging player and many sides are wary of him.....he's hard to match up against.

I was tough on him, but credit is due.

Jumbo, Watts has come on heaps under Roos and yes he played his role yesterday but we shouldn't be content with that. He is capable of so much more and I want to see. Every star of the game has an off week but they also have games they dominate. The best I've seen Watts play was round 1 or 2 this year and was against a team outside the 8. I just want him ut realise and play to his potential not just the glimpse he teases us with.

Listen to Roos' presser, he doesn't agree with you....last week we had a team of world beaters now we have a team of no hopers, marvellous what a loss does, suck it up

Of course he doesn't. He's not going to be critical of players in a public domain, he will behind closed doors though.

It's that attitude why this club has been rubbish. Justify a bad performance because last week was a good win.

Last week we didn't have a team of world beaters, we had an average team that got lucky. This week, we had a below average team that was lucky not to get spanked.

GWS after 12 rounds have a better percentage than us...

All of us are theoretical shareholders in this 'company' and each one is entitled to his say, and just because you're happy with what the boss is saying doesn't mean it's roses.

There needed to be changes to the team last week, we were absolutely smashed in so many areas of the game yet the notion of no changes suggested all 22 deserved their place from last week. It wasn't the case and it showed.

Bail, Garland and Matt Jones specifically were weak weak links for now 2 weeks. In Jones' case his attitude to defensive running is as poor as I've ever seen. He takes a mark, than walks-jogs back every single time as if to slow down play so much that when we turn it over we're completely ****ed.

Good on these posters, supporters, media personalities and hopefully coaches for not standing up for one good game a month. I'm sick of that rubbish.

They had Peter Jackson on pre game and the host asked about Frawley and Macca.

He said something like we are talking to Macca but Frawley has put it off to end of season. Said something like its hard to negotiate when the other party don't want to talk.

I think IMO we can all say he is gone.

Bloody good riddance..!! He is no star and not worth "sucking up" to... If he wants to go then forget trying to get him to stay... We will not miss him !

There was a moment in the 3rd quarter that summed up their battle.

Dunn was kicking out from FB when Jamar set off on a lead towards the boundary in front of Goldy. By the time the ball travelled the 45 meters, Goldstein had levelled than run straight past Mark, who laid no body contact and took an uncontested mark. Kicked inside 50 resulting in a scoring shot.

He can't play ruck single handedly for a whole game, he just doesn't have the tank.

A great honest battler is Mark, but the mobile and agile young ruckman have gone past him.

FWIW, Goldstein had more possessions, more marks, more tackles, more free kicks and less FK against, he lost the hitouts by 10 but they won the clearances comfortably, particularly in the 3rd quarter when it mattered.

That accords with what I saw live.

IMO Garland might be due for a spell at Casey, his form this year has been terrible and I think Terlich would be ample cover for the Dogs who don't have the tallest forward line.

Too many stupid posters on this site, rob f u are one, u swing from one view to we are a power house, to total hopeless team. Really we;only were blown away for one qtr.

Can't recall ever saying we are a powerhouse, care to bring up the post where I did. Can't recall saying we are totally hopeless, care to bring up the post where I did.

Did you go to the game? I did and we were terrible, that's not to say we can't play better but it gives an indication where we are at the moment. If you went to the game you would have seen that we were very patchy and a few times we were ok but others where we were substandard. We were lucky they were inaccurate because it could have been a blood bath otherwise. If you think they only beat us because of the third quarter you obviously didn't watch the game. Have a closer look at the scoreboard and do yourself a favour, watch the replay. Scoring shots 1st 9 to 3 2nd 6 to 3 3rd 11 to 6 4th 6 to 4, we kicked 6 straight up to half time and they kicked 7.8, they kick straight and game over at half time.

Perhaps you might want to comment on the game instead of other posters.

There are too many players at Melbourne where the difference between their best and worst is massive and until we can sort that problem we will struggle.

I personally think he could be better than he is currently showing us, and if we sit back as supporters and are content with that I can only hope that the coaches aren't.

Roos singled him out for praise, one of only two played (with Vince).

Look again.

I am sorry, but the rate at which some of you think we should improve is unrealistic. And now there are threads about the 'good' young players we have and how they are fundamentally flawed.

Improvement has been seen by some of our most maligned players which shouldn't surprise you - all Pedersen and Jetta needed was confidence, fitness, and a role they could execute.

Helping Matt Jones with his decision making and McDonald with his skill sharpness and selection is a tougher sell.

Some of you see my realism as acceptance of our current lot - if you think that - you are, I'm sorry to say, a bit dim. We are coming from a long way back and our list is simply not at a standard that some of you think it is from your reaction to this loss.

Some will go, some will need more time to improve, and some will need to be allowed to properly develop (I laugh at posters who think JKH is 'AFL standard' already).

Edited June 23, 201411 yr by rpfc

I am sorry, but the rate at which some of you think we should improve is unrealistic. And now they are threads about the 'good' young players we have and how they are fundamentally flawed.

Improvement has been seen by some of our most maligned players which shouldn't surprise you - all Pedersen and Jetta needed was confidence, fitness, and a role they could execute.

Helping Matt Jones with his decision making and McDonald with his skill sharpness and selection is a tougher sell.

Some of you see my realism as acceptance of our current lot - if you think that - you are, I'm sorry to say, a bit dim. We are coming from a long way back and our list is simply not at a standard that some of you think it is from your reaction to this loss.

Some will go, some will need more time to improve, and some will need to be allowed to properly develop (I laugh at posters who think JKH is 'AFL standard' already).

All you need to do is go back to Roos at the beginning of the year and listen to his expectation. For what its worth, I think that Roos ( besides the Eagles game) would be surprised by the consistency of improvement and effort. I am not sure how many more times it needs to be heard from Roos that we are "coming from a very long way back" for that message to sink in.

Has there been a subtle change to our home jumper?

Take a look at Bernie's jumper in video below. At the V part of the red there are some markings and they look like the very top of the 'MFC' logo. Again look closely at the blue part just below and it looks like a faint 'water mark again like the 'MFC' logo. (These are easier to see without starting the video)

http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/2014-06-23/monday-analysis-vince-watts-stand-up

Similar markings are on Watts jumper in the earlier interview. again easier to see in the red V

http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/2014-06-23/we-fell-away-in-critical-areas-watts

Anyone have any info?

Edited June 23, 201411 yr by Lucifer's Hero

Has there been a subtle change to our home jumper?

Take a look at Bernie's jumper in video below. At the V part of the red there are some markings and they look like the very top of the 'MFC' logo. Again look closely at the blue part just below and it looks like a faint 'water mark again like the 'MFC' logo. (These are easier to see without starting the video)

http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/2014-06-23/monday-analysis-vince-watts-stand-up

Similar markings are on Watts jumper in the earlier interview. again easier to see in the red V

http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/2014-06-23/monday-analysis-vince-watts-stand-up

Anyone have any info?

I've seen that before, but only during games. I've always put it down to an illusion of sweat and movement; but maybe they have imprinted a subtle little logo on the chest.

What's the consensus on the McKenzie suspension.

Looked more like reckless contact as well as body contact in to the throat when I slowed it down. Jetta's head actually collects Thomas under the chin when he's going down like a sack of spuds and maybe that's the contact that leaves him grabbing at his head like he's been shot.

Sad to see Jordie get a week for some minor contact when the guys as soft as butter.

I am a dinosaur but would rather he put him in hospital

I am a dinosaur but would rather he put him in hospital

If he was going to get a suspension he may as well got 2 or 3 and made it worth it.

Roos singled him out for praise, one of only two played (with Vince).

Look again.

Don't need to look again. Last year we all marvelled at Jones, this year his game has gone to a new level. Watts has a few levels left to go. I've been to five games this year and have watched Watts with interest. Yes he gets the ball, yes he has elite disposal, does he impact games like a player of his ability should......no. That's what I'm saying.

Of course he doesn't. He's not going to be critical of players in a public domain, he will behind closed doors though.

It's that attitude why this club has been rubbish. Justify a bad performance because last week was a good win.

Last week we didn't have a team of world beaters, we had an average team that got lucky. This week, we had a below average team that was lucky not to get spanked.

GWS after 12 rounds have a better percentage than us...

All of us are theoretical shareholders in this 'company' and each one is entitled to his say, and just because you're happy with what the boss is saying doesn't mean it's roses.

There needed to be changes to the team last week, we were absolutely smashed in so many areas of the game yet the notion of no changes suggested all 22 deserved their place from last week. It wasn't the case and it showed.

Bail, Garland and Matt Jones specifically were weak weak links for now 2 weeks. In Jones' case his attitude to defensive running is as poor as I've ever seen. He takes a mark, than walks-jogs back every single time as if to slow down play so much that when we turn it over we're completely ****ed.

Good on these posters, supporters, media personalities and hopefully coaches for not standing up for one good game a month. I'm sick of that rubbish.

We must have been watching different games. I gave M Jones votes. However, even though he's played every game since round 1 last year, he will need to improve his disposal as the team continues to improve or he won't be playing for that much longer.

We must have been watching different games. I gave M Jones votes. However, even though he's played every game since round 1 last year, he will need to improve his disposal as the team continues to improve or he won't be playing for that much longer.

I compare Matt Jones to Brent Moloney. Different people in life clearly, but similar footballers.

Regularly pull together good stat lines, but both foot and hand skills over a short medium range 15-35 meters actually often leave the team at a deteriment.

If I had a heat map for this season for MJ45 he'd get the most of his possession at about 65m out for opp. goal near the boundary line. It's reguarly a nothing kick to recieve it, and he often gives off a nothing kick to follow it.

His defensive running is what concerns me the most though, watched him get run past by Ziebell about 5 times in 8 minutes. No body presence whatsoever.

I note he gives his best for the club, and I have nothing but respect for him as a footballer but he's played 12 games now and we know what he has to offer. I'd prefer to see young blokes now like Michie, Harmes, Blease who are a bit rawer, but have a far higher ceiling.

I compare Matt Jones to Brent Moloney. Different people in life clearly, but similar footballers.

Regularly pull together good stat lines, but both foot and hand skills over a short medium range 15-35 meters actually often leave the team at a deteriment.

If I had a heat map for this season for MJ45 he'd get the most of his possession at about 65m out for opp. goal near the boundary line. It's reguarly a nothing kick to recieve it, and he often gives off a nothing kick to follow it.

His defensive running is what concerns me the most though, watched him get run past by Ziebell about 5 times in 8 minutes. No body presence whatsoever.

I note he gives his best for the club, and I have nothing but respect for him as a footballer but he's played 12 games now and we know what he has to offer. I'd prefer to see young blokes now like Michie, Harmes, Blease who are a bit rawer, but have a far higher ceiling.

You may be right, but how do we know? I accept that Matt Jones will need to improve to stay in the team (even though he hasn't missed a game since he started) but how do we know his ceiling is lower than the others you have mentioned?

You may be right, but how do we know? I accept that Matt Jones will need to improve to stay in the team (even though he hasn't missed a game since he started) but how do we know his ceiling is lower than the others you have mentioned?

He might look young, but you'll be shocked to learn he's turning 27 this year. He's the Marc Murphy, Dale Thomas, Josh Kennedy, Pendles draft.

By 27, I think it's 99 times out of 100, safe to assume you have reached your full potential.

In the 2012 JJ Liston, (VFL Brownlow medal) he polled 4 votes in the full year of footy. He'd played EFL for two years before that after not being drafted or asked to play VFL.

Michael Barlow funnily enough was also born in 87 also played one year in the VFL, and finished 2nd in the same trophy a few years earlier.

He's a good foot soldier at AFL level, he finds the footy and he runs hard, but he's just not a great footballer and in my opinion, the runs are on the board to suggest he won't be. He finds lots of the footy, but he's not overly damaging and he doesn't kick goals. For an AFL midfielder that doesn't bode well.

No-one will be happier than me if I'm proven wrong though.

He might look young, but you'll be shocked to learn he's turning 27 this year. He's the Marc Murphy, Dale Thomas, Josh Kennedy, Pendles draft.

By 27, I think it's 99 times out of 100, safe to assume you have reached your full potential.

In the 2012 JJ Liston, (VFL Brownlow medal) he polled 4 votes in the full year of footy. He'd played EFL for two years before that after not being drafted or asked to play VFL.

Michael Barlow funnily enough was also born in 87 also played one year in the VFL, and finished 2nd in the same trophy a few years earlier.

He's a good foot soldier at AFL level, he finds the footy and he runs hard, but he's just not a great footballer and in my opinion, the runs are on the board to suggest he won't be. He finds lots of the footy, but he's not overly damaging and he doesn't kick goals. For an AFL midfielder that doesn't bode well.

No-one will be happier than me if I'm proven wrong though.

Well argued. I hadn't realised he was 27. Like so many of our players he has the body of someone 5 years younger. Unfortunately, I suspect you're right regarding his ceiling.