And you describe me as uppity again, perhaps with 'pedantic qualities?'

You really should take your own advice, and the graveyard of Demonland is filled with my buried hatchets.

I can be arrogant and dismissive and I apologise with my last one with regard to the proposed Tasmanian team.

You will have to excuse me on this issue - this is one rare subject with which I have inside knowledge on the status of their bid.

Having to hear about the closeness of this team to eventuate has done my head in on here for a few years now because I am related to the consultant used by the Tasmanian government to lobby the AFL for a team. It was effectively abandoned when the GWS decision was made, and then the earth was salted when they re-upped their deal with Hawthorn for 2012-2016 at $18.3m for the 5 years.

The Hawks saying goodbye to that money is one of the many obstacles that a revived Tassie bid will have to overcome.

And the government will have to make moves pretty soon if they want to revive it.

I think one of the biggest mistakes this club could make is to think it is safe.

We have been hopeless for 7 years, On Sunday's performance it looks like 8. We must improve or at some stage the AFL will see us as terminally ill and look for the best way to quietly remove us. Tassie is an easy option ticking off the last frontier.

Just because a position is taken at one point in time does not mean it cannot be revisited and revised. Paying out the Hawks might be cheaper than propping up a poorly supported and performing MFC.

Edit: Apology accepted. Thanks

I think one of the biggest mistakes this club could make is to think it is safe.

We have been hopeless for 7 years, On Sunday's performance it looks like 8. We must improve or at some stage the AFL will see us as terminally ill and look for the best way to quietly remove us. Tassie is an easy option ticking off the last frontier.

Just because a position is taken at one point in time does not mean it cannot be revisited and revised. Paying out the Hawks might be cheaper than propping up a poorly supported and performing MFC.

Edit: Apology accepted. Thanks

And my point from a millennium ago that you misconstrued and jumped down my throat on was there is not one person or body who can make that decision for us. It is not as simple as revoking our licence or sending us on our way. The paranoia about this is more worrisome than any 'heads in the sand' on the possibility it could happen down the track. The water that will have to go under this hypothetical bridge is immeasurable, and also will not have a timeline that suits the next roll out of the CBA which is why the AFL likes pure 'expansion' teams - because you can plan for the year without the variables of member votes, court action, et al

And I will accept your implicit apology?

Tassie Bid

'The Premier's office will discuss it, amongst other things, in a few weeks with a consultant but at this stage it is not a high priority. Much easier to push for more Hawks games.'

That is the latest news.

That will have to get their arse in gear if they want anything done.

For those interested I will attempt to update this after that meeting.

I have high expectations also but to expect anything more with the squad we had on the park last week against there's would be silly. The Eagles will take some serious beating this year and with our decimated list we were never going to get close.

We put in a similar effort to what we did against the Saints just fortunately for us they are awful as well, just not quite as awful.

Misson has had three years with this lot. Every other team in the AFL can run hard for four quarters, and unless I am watching a different team, we seemingly can not. To call that effort as playing with heart is bulldust. Players jog. They meander. They put in token efforts. I watch a lot of footy and there is a discernible difference that you would have to be blind not to see. That isn't skill, that's effort. Even dropping chest marks can be attributed to laziness and not being switched on mentally.

I saw improvements in this regard against the Saints. When the game was there to be the won, they did the fundamentals. They lifted their intensity. It was not there against the Eagles because the game was over by quarter time, and that's not good enough. You don't drag yourself off the bottom that way.

Thank god for Daniel Cross. He is setting a benchmark that is showing up more than a few others.

And my point from a millennium ago that you misconstrued and jumped down my throat on was there is not one person or body who can make that decision for us. It is not as simple as revoking our licence or sending us on our way. The paranoia about this is more worrisome than any 'heads in the sand' on the possibility it could happen down the track. The water that will have to go under this hypothetical bridge is immeasurable, and also will not have a timeline that suits the next roll out of the CBA which is why the AFL likes pure 'expansion' teams - because you can plan for the year without the variables of member votes, court action, et al

And I will accept your implicit apology?

We differ, don't worry about it.

I believe that if Roos can't get substantial improvement this year and provide hope then we face a difficult future. TV will complain because nobody want to watch the rubbish we produce, supporters and members will have had enough, corporate sales will deteriorate and we will be a huge problem for the AFL. With a supportive AFL wanting to solve a problem I wonder how much of the immeasurable water to flow under your bridge will evaporate.

We are controlled by the AFL now, Jackson and Roos are AFL men and so is Bartlett. We survive at their discretion.

I'm happy to apologise if you can show me where in this thread I've offended without cause. If you're referring to some previous encounter I'd suggest you just move on.

Three things out of last week [ I think]

1. Frawley is just going through the motions to see out the year and get to his next club, uninjured.

2 Nick nat throws the ball a lot. I think I have seen more thrown balls this year than ever before.

3. The eagles runner shepards a lot as well, I watched him a fair bit and he just seemed to get between a demon player and his man, funny that.

I have high expectations also but to expect anything more with the squad we had on the park last week against there's would be silly. The Eagles will take some serious beating this year and with our decimated list we were never going to get close.

We put in a similar effort to what we did against the Saints just fortunately for us they are awful as well, just not quite as awful.

I disagree,

I was at both matches, against the Saints we ran and chased. I saw real effort for little scoreboard reward.

We were woeful against the Weagles. Right from the start many of the players appeared disinterested.

N Jones you have a life pass from any criticism from me, you always try, never seen a game where you didn't give your all.

Fitpatrick must have been still suffering from concussion, he didn't know where he was.

What was going on with Frawley? Worst effort I have ever seen from him. Others were just lazy.

These are not the only players. We are so far behind the pack its just sad. Add Watts, Trengove, Grimes, Frawley, Toumpas and Spencer and this why we are really struggling. These players are just simply not up to AFL standard. They all might have been great juniors but there not making it and we will continue to be the bottom team as long as they are playing; or running along side those who are playing.

We tend to have an unwavering desire to recruit midgets or soft big blokes.

We tend to have an unwavering desire to recruit midgets or soft big blokes.

Just to add to your list - or blokes with no skill or composure

Through out the past 3 rebuilds I have always had no doubt in my mind that this club will turn around under the right regime..... After our continued bad lack and poor performances to the start of this season and it looks like players have already retreated to their shells in rd 2 - I really am worried for this club

We will lose this week badly again on current performance and forr years now we keep seeing the same mistakes over and over again, round in and round out.... Apologies to blokes like the Jones boys, Cross, Vince, Garlo and a handful of others but the players are either lazy or don't give a f*$%

I accept a rebuild and being beaten by a better team like WCE, and make no mistake WCE are a contender this year - but to continually shirk contests, continually miss tackles not apply pressure, fumble year after year there is no excuse.....

When does that stop? That's the real worry for me - that this group is fractured to the point where even Roos can't save us.

I predict we'll get flogged this week and the pressure and embarrassment will only get worse from here.

The common thread with the bottom three sides is that we are all suffering from lack of key forwards.

We are not alone with this problem, misery loves company. We will get better.

Just to add to your list - or blokes with no skill or composure

Through out the past 3 rebuilds I have always had no doubt in my mind that this club will turn around under the right regime..... After our continued bad lack and poor performances to the start of this season and it looks like players have already retreated to their shells in rd 2 - I really am worried for this club

We will lose this week badly again on current performance and forr years now we keep seeing the same mistakes over and over again, round in and round out.... Apologies to blokes like the Jones boys, Cross, Vince, Garlo and a handful of others but the players are either lazy or don't give a f*$%

I accept a rebuild and being beaten by a better team like WCE, and make no mistake WCE are a contender this year - but to continually shirk contests, continually miss tackles not apply pressure, fumble year after year there is no excuse.....

When does that stop? That's the real worry for me - that this group is fractured to the point where even Roos can't save us.

I predict we'll get flogged this week and the pressure and embarrassment will only get worse from here.

Suggest you read WJ's report from the Devils Advocates function. Might put things in perspective. Also I think you are wrong to suggest that the playing group is fractured.

Misson has had three years with this lot. Every other team in the AFL can run hard for four quarters, and unless I am watching a different team, we seemingly can not. To call that effort as playing with heart is bulldust. Players jog. They meander. They put in token efforts. I watch a lot of footy and there is a discernible difference that you would have to be blind not to see. That isn't skill, that's effort. Even dropping chest marks can be attributed to laziness and not being switched on mentally.

I saw improvements in this regard against the Saints. When the game was there to be the won, they did the fundamentals. They lifted their intensity. It was not there against the Eagles because the game was over by quarter time, and that's not good enough. You don't drag yourself off the bottom that way.

Thank god for Daniel Cross. He is setting a benchmark that is showing up more than a few others.

I refuse to accept that the skill, quality or talent of the squad isn't good enough. They simply lack urgency. Their biggest loses come through a genuine lack of urgency from the onset. The errors come later. The Eagles were in 2nd gear all game. Melbourne never left 1st gear. Imagine if he Eagles were ruthless and this game was closer to finals? Would have been a 150-point loss.

We differ, don't worry about it.

I believe that if Roos can't get substantial improvement this year and provide hope then we face a difficult future. TV will complain because nobody want to watch the rubbish we produce, supporters and members will have had enough, corporate sales will deteriorate and we will be a huge problem for the AFL. With a supportive AFL wanting to solve a problem I wonder how much of the immeasurable water to flow under your bridge will evaporate.

We are controlled by the AFL now, Jackson and Roos are AFL men and so is Bartlett. We survive at their discretion.

I'm happy to apologise if you can show me where in this thread I've offended without cause. If you're referring to some previous encounter I'd suggest you just move on.

IMO Roos' style and Jackson's intentions seem at odds.

Jackson says we need result on the field. Immediate, impacting results. The reality is that the club cannot afford another 2-3 win season. This all comes down to the players now. They ARE the final link.

Roos' teams play an ugly, ugly style of football. When they win, it's a tough, satisfying win. But that style, that holding the ball, chipping it, maintaining possession, there is NO room for leaving the fundamentals at home, no room for error. This is why Roos honed in on it on Sunday. The fundamentals were non-existent on Sunday.

This goes beyond the club now. There is simply nothing else the AFL or administration can do. There are new facilities, corporate sponsorship, money coming in from the NT deal, a better TV deal (more free-to-air games), more primetime fixture results (a few Saturday night games), a champion coach, a champion CEO.

The team foundations have been set. Guys like Trengove, Watts, Frawley, Jones, Dunn, Vince, McKenzie, they should bring the fundamentals to matches every week, and should be leading from the front. Jones was missing handball targets on Sunday. Frawley DID. NOT. CHANCE. Vince's vision went out the door, had about 5 kicks cut off, Dunn tried hard, Trengove is slow but tackles hard. Watts is a downhill skier.

Much of the team's problem atm is not due to a lack of talent. It is a lack of confidence and urgency, a will to win. The players need to accept this, move on, and DO SOMETHING. Because the club cannot afford this anymore. You can't blame anywhere else now. All eyes are on this squad to perform.

No lack of a forward line equates to a lack of urgency. They were deplorable on Sunday.

The whole, "A lack of a forward line is part of their problems" rhetoric is a load of crap. If that was an 18 point loss on Sunday, everyone would be signing the team's praises and be saying, "They'd be winning with a forward line". The problem now is a lack of desire and concentration, which leads to laziness and a, "Someone else will do it" mentality.

I refuse to accept that the skill, quality or talent of the squad isn't good enough. They simply lack urgency. Their biggest loses come through a genuine lack of urgency from the onset. The errors come later. The Eagles were in 2nd gear all game. Melbourne never left 1st gear. Imagine if he Eagles were ruthless and this game was closer to finals? Would have been a 150-point loss.

IMO Roos' style and Jackson's intentions seem at odds.

Jackson says we need result on the field. Immediate, impacting results. The reality is that the club cannot afford another 2-3 win season. This all comes down to the players now. They ARE the final link.

Roos' teams play an ugly, ugly style of football. When they win, it's a tough, satisfying win. But that style, that holding the ball, chipping it, maintaining possession, there is NO room for leaving the fundamentals at home, no room for error. This is why Roos honed in on it on Sunday. The fundamentals were non-existent on Sunday.

This goes beyond the club now. There is simply nothing else the AFL or administration can do. There are new facilities, corporate sponsorship, money coming in from the NT deal, a better TV deal (more free-to-air games), more primetime fixture results (a few Saturday night games), a champion coach, a champion CEO.

The team foundations have been set. Guys like Trengove, Watts, Frawley, Jones, Dunn, Vince, McKenzie, they should bring the fundamentals to matches every week, and should be leading from the front. Jones was missing handball targets on Sunday. Frawley DID. NOT. CHANCE. Vince's vision went out the door, had about 5 kicks cut off, Dunn tried hard, Trengove is slow but tackles hard. Watts is a downhill skier.

Much of the team's problem atm is not due to a lack of talent. It is a lack of confidence and urgency, a will to win. The players need to accept this, move on, and DO SOMETHING. Because the club cannot afford this anymore. You can't blame anywhere else now. All eyes are on this squad to perform.

No lack of a forward line equates to a lack of urgency. They were deplorable on Sunday.

The whole, "A lack of a forward line is part of their problems" rhetoric is a load of crap. If that was an 18 point loss on Sunday, everyone would be signing the team's praises and be saying, "They'd be winning with a forward line". The problem now is a lack of desire and concentration, which leads to laziness and a, "Someone else will do it" mentality.

Delusional.

Big lack of talent.

These are not the only players. We are so far behind the pack its just sad. Add Watts, Trengove, Grimes, Frawley, Toumpas and Spencer and this why we are really struggling. These players are just simply not up to AFL standard. They all might have been great juniors but there not making it and we will continue to be the bottom team as long as they are playing; or running along side those who are playing.

Frosty is back thank god!

Trengove is averaging 22 touches per game, which is okay but he isn't doing anything with it when he gets it, he has a base, needs to work on that

Toumpas has played 16 games and is playing a role, get off his back

Frawley has his mind on other things i think

Grimes is great apart from skill errors

Watts was BOG in round 1

Spencer is a dud so i agree with that one

i reckon we have had some much worse players

Jeremy howe, James Frawley and Jack Trengove need to lift bigtime

Delusional.

Big lack of talent.

Yep. Schwabs Whiteboard recruited little boys and not leaders.

God knows why.

We are looking at the results.

I hope he is enjoying it.

Yep. Schwabs Whiteboard recruited little boys and not leaders.

God knows why.

We are looking at the results.

I hope he is enjoying it.

Further to this, it could be said we recruited little boys becauase could potentially be leaders. Unfortunatley they all cant play football in the AFL becauase of their physical or skill limitations so the leadership side of them cant flourish. I recall the likes of Watts, Grimes, Toumpas, Strauss, Trengove, Scully & Morton all being drafted ahead of other bigger bodied footballers becauase they were potential leaders. It has totally backfired.

Well, boys eventually become men.

Further to this, it could be said we recruited little boys becauase could potentially be leaders. Unfortunatley they all cant play football in the AFL becauase of their physical or skill limitations so the leadership side of them cant flourish. I recall the likes of Watts, Grimes, Toumpas, Strauss, Trengove, Scully & Morton all being drafted ahead of other bigger bodied footballers becauase they were potential leaders. It has totally backfired.

Scully, Trengove, Watts and Toumpas didn't surprisde me when they were selected, i was fine with those decisions

But looking at it now, Trengove, Morton, Gysberts, Tapscott, Blease, Strauss, should all be guns approaching the best part of their career, if you add even 6 B grade players to our side we suddenly look alot better, it's dissapointing.

Further to this, it could be said we recruited little boys becauase could potentially be leaders. Unfortunatley they all cant play football in the AFL becauase of their physical or skill limitations so the leadership side of them cant flourish. I recall the likes of Watts, Grimes, Toumpas, Strauss, Trengove, Scully & Morton all being drafted ahead of other bigger bodied footballers becauase they were potential leaders. It has totally backfired.

You cannot be a leader and be thrown around like a rag doll on the field.

How this strategy was implimented will forever astound me.

Posted in another thread but also relevant here.

Our leadership goup didn't stand up: Leadership group:

Clarke - ?

Garland - back soon, so hope he sets good example

Frawley - playing without endeavour

Trengrove - struggling

Jones - Champion and quickly becoming the stand out leader

Grimes - tries hard but not effective

Are our leaders unified? Do they have their on-field leadership roles sorted? I didn't see many on field huddles/leaders talking on Sunday. I didn't see much encouragement (eg JKH 1st AFL goal). We don't have a leader on the forward half but none of our leaders took on the role on Sunday. I don't feel our leaders can galvanise the players when things aren't going well on the field. It can't be left only up to Jones to be the lone ranger. Even if leaders individually are having a bad game they can still stand up as leaders, can't they?

Our leaders need to stand up on the field!!!! As a leadership group not just as individuals. It is about behaviours guys, not titles!!! We need to see them lead on the field not at training, not at functions, not in the press. On the field!!!!

Until they do it will be very hard for the rest of the team to make the extra effort to be competative.

End rant.

Scully, Trengove, Watts and Toumpas didn't surprisde me when they were selected, i was fine with those decisions

But looking at it now, Trengove, Morton, Gysberts, Tapscott, Blease, Strauss, should all be guns approaching the best part of their career, if you add even 6 B grade players to our side we suddenly look alot better, it's dissapointing.

Agreed. This is what's killing us. While the Shey's, Ziebell's, Zaharakis etc become frontlines and keys to their club's success, none of ours have fired a shot. Almost has to be a product of environment. The urgency on the field is just deplorable and seemingly contagious.

We are in this mire largely because we stuffed the draft and now lack a 'generation' of solid senior players (26 and above - left with Dunn etc). It looks as if it's happening all over again, with very little progress from draftees of 5-6 years ago.

Posted in another thread but also relevant here.

Our leadership goup didn't stand up: Leadership group:

Clarke - ?

Garland - back soon, so hope he sets good example

Frawley - playing without endeavour

Trengrove - struggling

Jones - Champion and quickly becoming the stand out leader

Grimes - tries hard but not effective

Are our leaders unified? Do they have their on-field leadership roles sorted? I didn't see many on field huddles/leaders talking on Sunday. I didn't see much encouragement (eg JKH 1st AFL goal). We don't have a leader on the forward half but none of our leaders took on the role on Sunday. I don't feel our leaders can galvanise the players when things aren't going well on the field. It can't be left only up to Jones to be the lone ranger. Even if leaders individually are having a bad game they can still stand up as leaders, can't they?

Our leaders need to stand up on the field!!!! As a leadership group not just as individuals. It is about behaviours guys, not titles!!! We need to see them lead on the field not at training, not at functions, not in the press. On the field!!!!

Until they do it will be very hard for the rest of the team to make the extra effort to be competative.

End rant.

Just from what i have seen, i reckon our real leaders are.

Jack Grimes, Jack Trengove, Nathan Jones, Colin Garland, Lynden Dunn and Tom Mcodonald,

there are many different kinds of leadership, Trengove and Grimes are quite verbal, Jones and Garland are out best players, Dunn is a good player, gives his all, always verbal and works his ass off on the track, and Tom Mcdonald just leads by example, if it's his training or whatever

You cannot be a leader and be thrown around like a rag doll on the field.

How this strategy was implimented will forever astound me.

one of your better comments.

i noticed young buckley from carlton playing his 2nd game the other night,he took on a tiger player with a front on challenge to a fight.

not saying that fighting is good,but this 2nd gamer just stood there and said "wanna fight mate"

while he may still be learning and making mistakes for the next couple of years,fact is he showed tough leadership by not backing down and probably earnt the respect of both teams on the night.

we watched 3 blokes attack jack watts and said "yep your on your own fella".

arrrrrr leadership,some people dont know what it means in footy.

Posted in another thread but also relevant here.

Our leadership goup didn't stand up: Leadership group:

Clarke - ?

Garland - back soon, so hope he sets good example

Frawley - playing without endeavour

Trengrove - struggling

Jones - Champion and quickly becoming the stand out leader

Grimes - tries hard but not effective

Are our leaders unified? Do they have their on-field leadership roles sorted? I didn't see many on field huddles/leaders talking on Sunday. I didn't see much encouragement (eg JKH 1st AFL goal). We don't have a leader on the forward half but none of our leaders took on the role on Sunday. I don't feel our leaders can galvanise the players when things aren't going well on the field. It can't be left only up to Jones to be the lone ranger. Even if leaders individually are having a bad game they can still stand up as leaders, can't they?

Our leaders need to stand up on the field!!!! As a leadership group not just as individuals. It is about behaviours guys, not titles!!! We need to see them lead on the field not at training, not at functions, not in the press. On the field!!!!

Until they do it will be very hard for the rest of the team to make the extra effort to be competative.

End rant.

Jones is the only leader in that group.

He refuses to give up.

Jack Viney will be a leader for the same reason.