Flying via Stealth..... stealth bombers, caught out, & shot down.

.... heres something MN, for you to work with Re you graphics. >

My reading is that's it's even worse Franky. The players are being told to come and talk and accept a 6 month ban without seeing any evidence.

Maybe time to brush up on the procedure Bob.

Why do you refuse to see it as it really is Bob ?

There's a set of Rules. With these rules are protocols. These protocols outline responsibilities , pathways and requirements of all parties. They also are set by and agreed to by all participants in these sports.

What in effect happens here is WADA/ASADA get wind of a transgression. They investigate. If they find that is most likely happened , and theres sufficient proof to instruct for a 'show cause' to be issued, it is. Its then incumbent upon the accused to proved their innocence. If they cant then an infraction is issued.

its simple.. Some is told....You have done X, prove otherwise. Its actually the accused that ought to be putting forward the evidence of their innocence.

its not really that hard

No it is not that hard, but virtually all the AFL community and the press refuse to acknowledge it is not ultimately UP to ASADA. WADA is the final arbiter and if they consider ASADA has squib bed it (including findings of Australian courts) then they will send it to the international Court of Arbitration in Sport. As I understand it,they are yet to lose a case anywhere in the world. It was set up like this to get around the so called Third World corruption problem. How ironic: first world Australia;internation sporting superpower, is now conducting the most internationally watched test case of drugs in Sport. We cannot be allowed to drop the ball.Hird and Little, for the sake of Australia's international reputation, will inevitably be squashed. What a waste, how I credibly stupid - it need not have been like this but for James and Tania Hird ' s hubris.

How did you get there from what I said?

No offence intended Mr. Frank. I was just responding to the fact that you said you were feeling cornered into supporting the players but really didn't want to. When you think of them as being like the East Germans and Chinese many of who were also unwitting subjects of chemical experiments I thought you might not feel so cornered.

It seems there are three options in this case:

• the Essendon players knowingly took banned substances
• the Essendon players unwittingly took banned substances
• the Essendon players did not take any banned substances

All the discussion appears to suggest the Essendon players should take a penalty because (a) there's enough evidence to suggest some wrongdoing or (b) the issue annoys the AFL-supporting public and this is the best way for the problem to go away.

But if I was a player (of any team, but in this case Essendon) and I was convinced I had not taken any banned substances, I'd be fighting for the right to have my name cleared. It's not good enough for us to say these players should be penalised because of poor management or governance by their employer. It certainly shouldn't be good enough for them to be penalised if there isn't sufficient evidence to confirm they took a banned substance (knowingly or unwittingly). And it definitely isn't appropriate that they should be penalised just because the football supporting community is sick of the whole saga.

If it can be proven that the players took banned substances, then they should be penalised. I'm yet to be convinced there is proof or even sufficient evidence to mount a case - but I don't know what ASADA does and presumably ASADA thinks otherwise.

There is no need to prove that the players took a banned substance.

Note: or attempted use.

From ASADA http://www.asada.gov.au/rules_and_violations/8_rule_violations.html

2. Use or attempted use by an athlete of a prohibited substance or prohibited method.

If they attempted to use a banned substance, they are guilty! If they ordered a banned substance, it doesn't matter if they actually took vitamin C

Guilty!

A show cause notice may help the players reduce their penalties, but the EFC is stuffed.

There is no need to prove that the players took a banned substance.

Note: or attempted use.

From ASADA http://www.asada.gov.au/rules_and_violations/8_rule_violations.html

2. Use or attempted use by an athlete of a prohibited substance or prohibited method.

If they attempted to use a banned substance, they are guilty! If they ordered a banned substance, it doesn't matter if they actually took vitamin C

Guilty!

A show cause notice may help the players reduce their penalties, but the EFC is stuffed.

So really the best way out for the players is to break away from EFC and say they were screwed over by them?

Some things with this whole saga that continue to make my head spin

1. Not one player nor administrator at Essendon know what was injected? Right or wrong?

2. Regardless of Asada and it's imperfections - Essendon and most of the AFL community continue to spew vitriol towards Asada and deflect blame of any degree away from Essendon.

3. Whilst I have some degree of sympathy towards the players - FFS!! These are people who measure and weigh their bloody food before they eat. This nonsense that the players are totally naive is utter rubbish.

Essendon and Hird have and I include Robbo in this have deliberately embarked on campaign to blame others for the Essendon self initiated drug mess.

Essendon led by chief bully Little now are trying to discredit everybody for what is and continue use to be the fault of only one group being Essendon.

The AFL is not a bloody sacred cow when it comes to doping in sport. We are looking like the laughing stock of the sporting world.

Someone needs to bring Little and his cohorts to account

You can argue that natural justice has not been served by the players not being given the brief to prepare a defence but this is not a court its a voluntary code that Essendon have signed up to.

The players have also signed up to it, with the assistance of the AFLPA.

So many lies. Its every man for himself. From top to bottom. Gonna get really messy

Chip Le Grand has in the past quoted this bloke extensively.

Yet when I listen to him I keep wondering whether I'd buy a used mortar or pestle from him.

Chip Le Grand has in the past quoted this bloke extensively.

Yet when I listen to him I keep wondering whether I'd buy a used mortar or pestle from him.

I get the same feeling 'Jack'.

Essendon yet to agree AFLPA health monitoring scheme

This the worst thing so far.

[Censored] disgusting.

Essendon yet to agree AFLPA health monitoring scheme

This the worst thing so far.

[Censored] disgusting.

These so called "people" at Essendon are below contempt. This cancer must be lanced.

I fervently hope the smug 'little' smile of these low people are wiped from their faces today.

Some order needs to be reinstated .

Essendon players want no part of legal battle, plead with ASADA again to show possible doping evidence

In following this debacle it has never been lost to this reader that central to much of the dilemma currently confronting the EFC and its players is purely of their making and yet they steadfastly refuse to see it for what it is. The latest development whereby the players are demanding they be informed goes to the crux for mine. They seek enlightenment about their predicament not from the instigators, their own club, but from those who seek to make them accountable.

Why are the players not making these demands to the club? Surely they are best placed and indeed morally bound to inform them. They want information then go to the source (sauce) and get it.

As Peter Fitzsimmons puts it in Criticism of ASADA investigation ignores the real issues

"Why pick on ASADA, which is simply doing what has to be done to enforce the anti-doping rules designed to protect the sanctity of Australian sport and the health of Australian sportspeople? No doubt these notices are upsetting to Essendon and the AFL, but who is responsible? Is it ASADA or those who allegedly CHEATED, by giving and taking these banned drugs? The government is either serious about enforcing the anti-doping rules, or it's not. Certainly, there has been criticism about how long the process has taken, but since when have the wheels of justice turned quickly? Yes, its ugly. But its Essendon ugly, not ASADA ugly."

The Players need to go ask the club, what have you done to us ? This is not ASADA's doing, this is Essendons.

Been to Paris 3 times. Love it. My tip is to do 1 section of Louvre at a time. Don't rush, you won't see anything

Essendon players want no part of legal battle, plead with ASADA again to show possible doping evidence

In following this debacle it has never been lost to this reader that central to much of the dilemma currently confronting the EFC and its players is purely of their making and yet they steadfastly refuse to see it for what it is. The latest development whereby the players are demanding they be informed goes to the crux for mine. They seek enlightenment about their predicament not from the instigators, their own club, but from those who seek to make them accountable.

Why are the players not making these demands to the club? Surely they are best placed and indeed morally bound to inform them. They want information then go to the source (sauce) and get it.

As Peter Fitzsimmons puts it in Criticism of ASADA investigation ignores the real issues

"Why pick on ASADA, which is simply doing what has to be done to enforce the anti-doping rules designed to protect the sanctity of Australian sport and the health of Australian sportspeople? No doubt these notices are upsetting to Essendon and the AFL, but who is responsible? Is it ASADA or those who allegedly CHEATED, by giving and taking these banned drugs? The government is either serious about enforcing the anti-doping rules, or it's not. Certainly, there has been criticism about how long the process has taken, but since when have the wheels of justice turned quickly? Yes, its ugly. But its Essendon ugly, not ASADA ugly."

The Players need to go ask the club, what have you done to us ? This is not ASADA's doing, this is Essendons.

Haha that's a good point, why don't the players get on the phone and ask Mr Hird what they were injected with, if they are unwilling to seek the truth then they are more interested in getting off than maintaining the integrity and fairness of the game, and this makes them cheaters in my book

mind you I reckon they knew they were doing something dodgey anyways

Good luck today Ben.... Win....Whatever it takes !!!

Was going to add this to the herald sun comments on the article "Essendon’s High Stakes Court Case Challenge ...", but I refuse to pay the subscription fee; have seen better examples of journalism in my children’s primary school newsletter.

Still I felt it should be shared (not sure if it has received as much attention as it should) - even though it is bloody obvious, there is still so much acceptance of the "no records kept" argument forming a major basis for the commentary on this saga:

"Talk about gullible, I cannot believe anyone actually believes that an organisation would implement a program to improve performance without tracking and monitoring the effects of every aspect of the program: on what was delivered, to whom, when (timing of day/week), levels of fitness, quantity of what was delivered, combinations, etc, - even having comparing data between players including those who have not received anything (as a baseline).

If for no other reason, this would have just been in place to measure the effectiveness (and return on investment) of the program; and to enhance, develop and improve future program(s). This lack of record keeping and data collection just wouldn't happen, even at the most basic level, in any organisation beyond that managed by primary school kids. Incompetent (beyond reasonable) or criminal (destroying/hiding records) should see the club turfed and rebuilt - perhaps as the Tasmania Bombers, or North Australia Bombers."

Final hearing date is 11 August which, if a decision is handed down on the spot there are only 3 home and away rounds left.

If the players take the 6 months apparently on offer (assuming it applies) after the hearing, they will be missing a fair slab of 2015.

Was going to add this to the herald sun comments on the article "Essendon’s High Stakes Court Case Challenge ...", but I refuse to pay the subscription fee; have seen better examples of journalism in my children’s primary school newsletter.

Still I felt it should be shared (not sure if it has received as much attention as it should) - even though it is bloody obvious, there is still so much acceptance of the "no records kept" argument forming a major basis for the commentary on this saga:

"Talk about gullible, I cannot believe anyone actually believes that an organisation would implement a program to improve performance without tracking and monitoring the effects of every aspect of the program: on what was delivered, to whom, when (timing of day/week), levels of fitness, quantity of what was delivered, combinations, etc, - even having comparing data between players including those who have not received anything (as a baseline).

If for no other reason, this would have just been in place to measure the effectiveness (and return on investment) of the program; and to enhance, develop and improve future program(s). This lack of record keeping and data collection just wouldn't happen, even at the most basic level, in any organisation beyond that managed by primary school kids. Incompetent (beyond reasonable) or criminal (destroying/hiding records) should see the club turfed and rebuilt - perhaps as the Tasmania Bombers, or North Australia Bombers."

Well, the Tiwi Bombers are already in place as a potential reserves side.

Rabid Bombers collegue believes that Essendon is pathfinding for AFL clubs and that all the clubs are behind the Bombers who if successful will forge a bright new future for the AFL outside of the WADA code. She thinks the Gold Coast will join the Bombers shortly in an aliance against the AFL and ASADA, not sure why?

Unbelievable that otherwise rational and intelligent people can be so convinced by the spin from Essendon.

It does nothing but convince me that that clubs culture is a cult like toxic mix of blind faith and stupidity. I cant help compare wth the commentary on the Demons tanking affair and how most supporters were outraged that the club was singled out but no one was dumb enough to belive that strings were not pulled to ensure we got the No 1 pick. I am still not sure what tanking is and am convinced the players that ran out tried to win on every occasion but I dont think the membership was blind to the reality.

Given the Bomber atitude I cant see them ever letting go and moving on. Regardless of the outcome today or the later ruling this will go on for a very lng time will cost the code and the cubs a significant amount of money. This could see the death of clubs like the Bulldogs and maybe us because potentially there will not be same money around in terms of television rights and sponsership going forward.

The AFL for all its attempts to control the fall out may well have failed and made the situation worse. Its easy in hindsight but maybe the best approach would have been to step back let ASADA do its thing and come in after the event. If that meant taking a premiership cup or two off the Bombers then so be it.

Rabid Bombers collegue believes that Essendon is pathfinding for AFL clubs and that all the clubs are behind the Bombers who if successful will forge a bright new future for the AFL outside of the WADA code. She thinks the Gold Coast will join the Bombers shortly in an aliance against the AFL and ASADA, not sure why?

Was it mushrooms ??

Final hearing date is 11 August which, if a decision is handed down on the spot there are only 3 home and away rounds left.

If the players take the 6 months apparently on offer (assuming it applies) after the hearing, they will be missing a fair slab of 2015.

... and if they don't

Was it mushrooms ??

Dont know what drug but highly likely given its the Bombers that a drug is involved. Its almost like an alien mind control scene from a 60's scifi.

Some things with this whole saga that continue to make my head spin

3. Whilst I have some degree of sympathy towards the players - FFS!! These are people who measure and weigh their bloody food before they eat. This nonsense that the players are totally naive is utter rubbish.

What has me completely gobsmacked ( and I have said previously I have some sympathy for the players) - that 35 players were taken offsite to be injected and not one of the players questioned it ? Not one of them mentioned it to a parent and if they did why was there no concern from the parent ? Not one of them mentioned it to a manager and if they did why was there no concern from the manager ? That this happened with the absence of anyone thinking "this ain't kosher" is mind blowing to me.