Achtung. You have shown yourself unable to grasp what has been happening at EFC without dribbling over the sordid possibilities.

And facts clearly aren't your line of business Herr commandant.

And irony last occurred when you labelled another poster " a pompous troll".

Im fully capable of understanding.

Clear deliberation isnt your forte ..I understand. Go hold Aof B hand

You might recall that Carlton was extremely suspicious of how, after thrashing Essendon by 62 points in an elimination final in 2011, the Blues lost to them by 5 goals in a return match with the physical development of many young Bombers raising eyebrows. This prompted the visit by some Carlton people to the South Yarra compounding chemist to check out what the Bombers were on. I've been told the Blues were suspicious because they had been offered and rejected a programme by Dank.

I have heard this as well

I think you've missed the point Rhino. He's not suggesting that the drug lasts 18 months but that there are programmes involving some of the substances mentioned that enable the physical development of players to be fast tracked whereas it might take two or three years of player development to get them to the same point by natural means - weights and diet.

You might recall that Carlton was extremely suspicious of how, after thrashing Essendon by 62 points in an elimination final in 2011, the Blues lost to them by 5 goals in a return match with the physical development of many young Bombers raising eyebrows. This prompted the visit by some Carlton people to the South Yarra compounding chemist to check out what the Bombers were on. I've been told the Blues were suspicious because they had been offered and rejected a programme by Dank.

Well they could not have been fast tracked for the past 20 months since the program was halted with departure of Robinson and Dank.

And in 2012 it all blew up for Essendon badly at the half way point of the year. An alarming number of soft tissue injuries and inability to run out games in the 2nd half of 2012 would suggest there was no Great Leap Forward for them. The game against MFC in 2012 was a perfect example that there was little if any benefit derived by the Bombers. For all the hope that EFC had by being cutting edge they have only slit their respective throats then and now.

There was little benefit to them over the course of that year and it's hard to see how it could possibly benefit them now.

The really stupid thing is that EFC were assembling a quality list of footballers who even with the drugs saga have been impressive to date this year. Had they not embarked on the cowboy program in 2012 they would have arguably been tilting for a flag now.

Ive no doubt much goes on behind closed doors...pushing the envelope as it were.

Its the total disregard for human decency as exposed by these regimes in sport that gets my goat. That and then they feign indignation upon their illegalities being laundered in the open.

Im fully capable of understanding.

Clear deliberation isnt your forte ..I understand. Go hold Aof B hand

It's just a pity you don't follow.

Your pathetic reference to Mengele and your embarrassing efforts to justify it would suggest you have not got a clue.

Just don't bang your head when the ambulance stops.

It's just a pity you don't follow.

Your pathetic reference to Mengele and your embarrassing efforts to justify it would suggest you have not got a clue.

Just don't bang your head when the ambulance stops.

anyone who sees irony...a dollar to the Maccallum institute please

At what stage does this thread go to a different forum or WJ BB and RR asked to confine themselves to PM?

We've bigger fish to fry.

Well they could not have been fast tracked for the past 20 months since the program was halted with departure of Robinson and Dank.

And in 2012 it all blew up for Essendon badly at the half way point of the year. An alarming number of soft tissue injuries and inability to run out games in the 2nd half of 2012 would suggest there was no Great Leap Forward for them. The game against MFC in 2012 was a perfect example that there was little if any benefit derived by the Bombers. For all the hope that EFC had by being cutting edge they have only slit their respective throats then and now.

There was little benefit to them over the course of that year and it's hard to see how it could possibly benefit them now.

The really stupid thing is that EFC were assembling a quality list of footballers who even with the drugs saga have been impressive to date this year. Had they not embarked on the cowboy program in 2012 they would have arguably been tilting for a flag now.

True - the fast tracking took a short period of time. The dates of the two games were 11 September, 2011 and 21 April, 2012.

That's a space of seven months and the Dank programmes started three months into that period so it's not 20 months but 3 or 4 at most.

BTW at least three of the players mentioned as raising Carlton's concerns are among the 12 players "outed" recently by Mark Robinson in the Herald Sun.

At what stage does this thread go to a different forum or WJ BB and RR asked to confine themselves to PM?

We've bigger fish to fry.

Sorry Franky but this is actually very much "on topic" for once because it goes directly to the Essendon programme.

A lot of the stuff in this thread is about frying irrelevant fish because they deal with side issues like what Tania said or feeling sorry for the players. The main issue is what the players ingested and were they legal under the WADA Code.

I have heard this as well

It happened. Carlton had many broken bones after that game.

My lawyer was involved.

True - the fast tracking took a short period of time. The dates of the two games were 11 September, 2011 and 21 April, 2012.

That's a space of seven months and the Dank programmes started three months into that period so it's not 20 months but 3 or 4 at most.

BTW at least three of the players mentioned as raising Carlton's concerns are among the 12 players "outed" recently by Mark Robinson in the Herald Sun.

The alleged improvement took 3 to 4 months but any benefits started unravelling by mid season as the soft tissue issues and the inability to step up week after week. There might be a number of explanations for the net outcome but it did not take long for EFC to jettison Robinson and Dank.

And my point is that any benefit derived in 2012 ( which was mixed) was well and truly gone 20 months later.

Coincidentally, they're discussing the same question over at Saintsational

No. It is not the drugs but the ability they give you to recover quicker from rigorous training. This means higher training load on younger who are fast tracked in their physical attributes to play their chosen sport.

Our young players should take around 3 season before they are a hardened team capable of playing consistent AFL footy.

Good example is GWS and their kids who are getting stronger in season 3.

Essendon fast tracked their kids by artificial means, and that benefit stays as long as they play AFL football.

It is an unfair advantage and is why it is cheating.

Note the poster also takes about the program fast tracking player development so that it's not about the lasting power of the drugs but what they do at the implementation stage.

Coincidentally, they're discussing the same question over at Saintsational

Note the poster also takes about the program fast tracking player development so that it's not about the lasting power of the drugs but what they do at the implementation stage.

I don't think an unknown person speaking on a supporter forum provides any more credible basis on this topic than some of the crud on Demonland.

And given we don't know what EFC took how can anyone conclude otherwise?

The drugs taken may have given them a point in time benefit but in the absence of those drugs how could they have been "fast tracked" particularly when the 2nd half of the 2012 season EFC became significantly slow tracked.

What happened in the second half of 2012 was partly an unintended outcome of an experimental programme - a number of EFC players succumbed to soft tissue injuries which were also attributed to the programmes adopted by The Weapon.

However, this neither adds nor detracts from the theory put forward that the programme also had the effect of "fast tracking" player development which is one of the things which some of the drugs in the concoction of substances mentioned in the ASADA interim report were supposed to achieve.

As a matter of interest, what does everyone think was the purpose of the drugs programme put together in 2012?

What happened in the second half of 2012 was partly an unintended outcome of an experimental programme - a number of EFC players succumbed to soft tissue injuries which were also attributed to the programmes adopted by The Weapon.

However, this neither adds nor detracts from the theory put forward that the programme also had the effect of "fast tracking" player development which is one of the things which some of the drugs in the concoction of substances mentioned in the ASADA interim report were supposed to achieve.

As a matter of interest, what does everyone think was the purpose of the drugs programme put together in 2012?

Not sure that adds much Jack.

I cant see how development was fast tracked beyond that short stanza when the output on the ground over the course of the year suggest otherwise.

And we are not in a position beyond guessing as to what did and what did not work. All we have is the final result for the season.

So we should put an asterisk next to Essendon's premiership in 2000 and to our runners up award that year as well.

Who finished third?

You can also put an asterisk next to Essendons 1993 premiership as they were fined for salary cap cheating from 1992 -1996.

All we have is the final result for the season.

And the fact that a number of younger Essendon players built up their bodies in a remarkably short period of time and two years later haven't lost the benefit of that development.

And the fact that a number of younger Essendon players built up their bodies in a remarkably short period of time and two years later haven't lost the benefit of that development.

Strength and physical development required the consistent adoption of an intensive weights program be maintained and built upon.

Do you reckon those players might have been in a gym since the end of 2012?

Strength and physical development required the consistent adoption of an intensive weights program be maintained and built upon.

Do you reckon those players might have been in a gym since the end of 2012?

One would think so because that would be the best way to build on the benefits of whatever it was that got them so quickly into shape in the first place.

Essendon weak, but James Hird should have the guts to walk

The win at all costs atitude is just as prevalent amongst those players who happily, blindly, enthusiastically or greedy of ambition participated without any further due dilligence of their own undertaking. Such caution is their resposibilty.

The players whilst possibly not all through stupidity are culpable and therefore guilty.

These players were happy enough to take whatever benefit or advantage this program offered. Well.. caveat emptor.

I have no sympathy for cheats.

They can be damned right alobgside their so called mentors.

the win at all costs attitude I'm referring to is from the Clubs leaders. this is what put pressure on all players, to follow the decision of those off field leaders.

the pressure put on players to do as the employer wants, in order to keep their jumpers, is the big wrong in all this.

Strength and physical development required the consistent adoption of an intensive weights program be maintained and built upon.

Do you reckon those players might have been in a gym since the end of 2012?

The idea was to build their base or foundation quicker, if they achieved that they got a head start on the rest so the benefits are ongoing.

http://scarcesense.wordpress.com/2014/03/30/eddie-mcguire-pride-in-corruption/

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2014/mar/31/afl-what-we-learned-this-weekend

Perhaps then, with a doping investigation ongoing, the season break would have been a good chance for Channel Seven to decide Jobe Watson’s dad should no longer be involved with his matches. Perhaps that need was exacerbated when last week’s drama showed that Hird still refuses to accept fault, and that Essendon will back him regardless. Perception is important.

But no, come Friday night we had Tim on the boundary and Jobe in the middle. Had Essendon held their lead and snuck home, we’d have been in for a nauseating post-game spectacle. Luckily for everyone, Hawthorn’s late winner landed Cyril Rioli on the end of Watson senior’s microphone instead. When the Bombers’ suspended coach one day gives the inevitable tell-all interview, we’ll look forward to a ruthless grilling by Tania Hird.

You're better than that, WYL.

Sadly he's not.