But it is an issue now and it sure isn't ASADA's fault.

I'm not interested in the "legalities" of this case. The law is usually a dope unable to cope with the unlimited number of differing situations that can occur and this is one such time.

I'm very concerned about the health of the injected players. What has been done to them is just dreadful and they are the clear victims.

I hope the players get off. I hope anyone involved in administering the program, those who knew about it, those who sanctioned it, those that turned a blind eye never work in football again and are named and shamed. Little and Hird should never be allowed in an AFL ground again.

I can't understand those people running around wanting to see players punished for their involvement. They have had their lives put at risk by dishonest incompetent fools in whom they understandably put their trust. And yet some want to see them punished further.

It's time for some perspective.

  On 10/03/2014 at 22:18, biggestred said:

just between you me and the walls, id have thought that Essendon should be looking after the players mental health and not ASADA or the AFL or the AFLPA or anyone else

You're not seriously suggesting that they take responsibility for their actions are you???

sorry bagdad bob but you and only you are responsible for what is injected into your body (unless you are in surgery).

the end.

  On 11/03/2014 at 01:46, I Give a Gawnski said:

You're not seriously suggesting that they take responsibility for their actions are you???

I agree it seems a strange course to take

Why should the players get off?

Professional sports people from other sports seem to get it.

You use, you lose.

essendon should be relocated lock stock and barrel to the big river in north africa

  On 11/03/2014 at 02:03, daisycutter said:

essendon should be relocated lock stock and barrel to the big river in north africa

Denial?

  On 11/03/2014 at 01:17, Baghdad Bob said:

I can't understand those people running around wanting to see players punished for their involvement. They have had their lives put at risk by dishonest incompetent fools in whom they understandably put their trust. And yet some want to see them punished further.

It's time for some perspective.

Even if you leave aside the issue of individual player responsibility there is a problem with not penalising the players, no matter how much sympathy one might have for the players and the abominable way their club has treated them.

The problem for drug enforcement authorities is that if they don't go after the players, in future players and clubs who did want to cheat could create a similar environment and could use the lack of penalties as a precedent. This could make the idea of cheating less unattractive and so more cheating would result.

However innocent/naive you might think the Essendon players are, there will always be players so desperate to succeed that they will willingly risk their health.

  On 11/03/2014 at 01:17, Baghdad Bob said:

I'm not interested in the "legalities" of this case. The law is usually a dope unable to cope with the unlimited number of differing situations that can occur and this is one such time.

I'm very concerned about the health of the injected players. What has been done to them is just dreadful and they are the clear victims.

I hope the players get off. I hope anyone involved in administering the program, those who knew about it, those who sanctioned it, those that turned a blind eye never work in football again and are named and shamed. Little and Hird should never be allowed in an AFL ground again.

I can't understand those people running around wanting to see players punished for their involvement. They have had their lives put at risk by dishonest incompetent fools in whom they understandably put their trust. And yet some want to see them punished further.

It's time for some perspective.

The only perspective one should approach this scandal from is that of every clean athlete who strives to achieve the pinnacle of his or her sport. That is what the world anti doping code is all about.

It's about Raelene Boyle who was deprived of up to four Olympic Gold Medals because we had no power to stop drug cheats in the 60s and 70s.

It's about the weighlifter who finished second to a 16 year old Bulgarian whose coach was solely responsible for administering prohibited substances to a teenager who was unaware of what she was receiving but still had to be stripped of her gold medal.

It's about the purity of sport and about accepting responsibility which is exactly what Tyson Gay and Asafa Powell did when they tested positive last year and accepted with grace their two year suspensions without blaming their coach or (as Shane Warne once famously did) their mother.

Australian sport would suffer a massive blow if players injected with illegal substances of the size and scope and in the manner suggested by the ASADA Interim Report walked away without penalty because the means of identifying what they took had been obliterated by employees or agents of their club.

Unfortunately, our own club is implicated and also subject to investigation and although, it's clear that a programme (if that's what you would call it) was not sponsored by the club, we have to take the medicine if found to have offended against the WADA Code.

There should be no way out for offenders for the sake of those who chose to stay clean and if it were any other way, our sport would quickly become at best a grubby and dirty form of entertainment only with little credibility like the WWE. That's my perspective.

  On 11/03/2014 at 02:13, Satan said:

Denial?

as they also believe in fairy tales they could be renamed "The Nile Pharaoies"

  On 11/03/2014 at 02:22, Whispering_Jack said:

The only perspective one should approach this scandal from is that of every clean athlete who strives to achieve the pinnacle of his or her sport. That is what the world anti doping code is all about.

It's about Raelene Boyle who was deprived of up to four Olympic Gold Medals because we had no power to stop drug cheats in the 60s and 70s.

It's about the weighlifter who finished second to a 16 year old Bulgarian whose coach was solely responsible for administering prohibited substances to a teenager who was unaware of what she was receiving but still had to be stripped of her gold medal.

It's about the purity of sport and about accepting responsibility which is exactly what Tyson [censored] and Asafa Powell did when they tested positive last year and accepted with grace their two year suspensions without blaming their coach or (as Shane Warne once famously did) their mother.

Australian sport would suffer a massive blow if players injected with illegal substances of the size and scope and in the manner suggested by the ASADA Interim Report walked away without penalty because the means of identifying what they took had been obliterated by employees or agents of their club.

Unfortunately, our own club is implicated and also subject to investigation and although, it's clear that a programme (if that's what you would call it) was not sponsored by the club, we have to take the medicine if found to have offended against the WADA Code.

There should be no way out for offenders for the sake of those who chose to stay clean and if it were any other way, our sport would quickly become at best a grubby and dirty form of entertainment only with little credibility like the WWE. That's my perspective.

100% agreement from me and yes we may yet get it in the neck.

I will of course be very annoyed if we lose because there is evidence and the EFC get off because of a lack of it.

The combination of unaproved drugs is also a health worry. In there straight usage it may be unaproved because it causes x but in combination with other unaproved drugs it may cause ???? Some ex cronulla players are suing cronulla for breach of duty of care. One of them was covered in bruises. Thats why they want Dank to tell what he gave them.

btw ln supercoach terms like Paul chapman im tipping. dank will be a late withdrawal for the lunch he is speaking at

  On 11/03/2014 at 01:17, Baghdad Bob said:

I'm not interested in the "legalities" of this case. The law is usually a dope unable to cope with the unlimited number of differing situations that can occur and this is one such time.

I'm very concerned about the health of the injected players. What has been done to them is just dreadful and they are the clear victims.

I hope the players get off. I hope anyone involved in administering the program, those who knew about it, those who sanctioned it, those that turned a blind eye never work in football again and are named and shamed. Little and Hird should never be allowed in an AFL ground again.

I can't understand those people running around wanting to see players punished for their involvement. They have had their lives put at risk by dishonest incompetent fools in whom they understandably put their trust. And yet some want to see them punished further.

It's time for some perspective.

I share your sympathy for the players and wish them well in a health sense.

I also understand people wanting to see them punished, as there is a tribal mentality in football, Essendon Officials have behaved disgracefully and there is an obvious anger when cheating is involved.

However, Sue below in her post, probably sums it up, as to why the players need to be punished, if the evidence of illegal drug use is present.

If they are not punished if the evidence is there, then any future athlete merely need say, I was told the stuff was legal. Then an official stands up and says, "yes I told them that" and he takes the fall.

You could kiss all world sport goodbye, as it would then become a simple case of the best drugs win the medals. The athlete willingly allowing drugs to be put in his body must be held accountable, even if he is misled or dumb.

  On 11/03/2014 at 01:49, biggestred said:

sorry bagdad bob but you and only you are responsible for what is injected into your body (unless you are in surgery).

the end.

So when I go to the doctor for my flu shot and he gives me something else it's my fault?

I don't see it your way. People rely on professional, the young footballers relied on professionals. They were duped.

The young men who were administered drugs by those they had been taught to trust, I have a lot of sympathy for.

But if the athletes who use drugs are not stripped of awards and banned from playing, it would make investigation and subsequent penalties imposed, impossible to pursue.

  On 11/03/2014 at 02:30, Redleg said:

I share your sympathy for the players and wish them well in a health sense.

I also understand people wanting to see them punished, as there is a tribal mentality in football, Essendon Officials have behaved disgracefully and there is an obvious anger when cheating is involved.

However, Sue below in her post, probably sums it up, as to why the players need to be punished, if the evidence of illegal drug use is present.

If they are not punished if the evidence is there, then any future athlete merely need say, I was told the stuff was legal. Then an official stands up and says, "yes I told them that" and he takes the fall.

You could kiss all world sport goodbye, as it would then become a simple case of the best drugs win the medals. The athlete willingly allowing drugs to be put in his body must be held accountable, even if he is misled or dumb.

We need more rational thinkers and less pedants. These kids have been punished beyond imagination and now people want more.

I don't get that and I don't accept the "deterrent" argument. We are entitled to rely on professional advice in a professional environment.

  On 11/03/2014 at 02:30, Baghdad Bob said:

So when I go to the doctor for my flu shot and he gives me something else it's my fault?

No it is his fault and you have civil remedies. When you play sport that may have another impact effect and another head of civil damage.

Also see my post 3655.

Llyod's saying it's time for the AFAL and ASADA to take some responsibility for the players mental health take the cake. If the club was really concerned about their players' mental health due to their uncertainties, they would either magically produce a list of what each player was injected with or threaten Dank with some legal action to produce his records from when he was employed by them. I don't know what legal case they would have a right to mount, I guess it might depend on the contract they had with Dank. But threatening an action would at least make it look like they cared.

On the other hand if no-one really does know what was injected, a lot of people should be resigning in shame and donating their $1M to a fund to cover future medical costs.

  On 11/03/2014 at 02:34, Baghdad Bob said:

We need more rational thinkers and less pedants. These kids have been punished beyond imagination and now people want more.

I don't get that and I don't accept the "deterrent" argument. We are entitled to rely on professional advice in a professional environment.

What is irrational about punishing a person who takes illegal drugs in sport and blames it on another's poor advice or judgment?

I don't want more punishment I want clean sport.

  On 11/03/2014 at 02:35, Redleg said:

No it is his fault and you have civil remedies. When you play sport that may have another impact effect and another head of civil damage.

Also see my post 3655.

Well others can rejoice in the punishment of players if it happens and when the first one is diagnosed with cancer they can say "at least he was punished before he went".

Dramatic but that is potentially what people are arguing. It's sick. If it was your son Redleg, how would you feel if he'd been poisoned by these dopes and then was punished.

Buger the law.

  On 11/03/2014 at 02:38, Redleg said:

What is irrational about punishing a person who takes illegal drugs in sport and blames it on another's poor advice or judgment?

I don't want more punishment I want clean sport.

The solution is not punishment of innocent kids, it's regulating those in charge of them.

Bob, Wade Lees got 18 months for importing a supplement which contained a small amount of a banned substance. It was intercepted by customs and never even got into his possession.

If he produced the Casey Doctor, who says to the authorities that he told him it was perfectly legal and he should use it if he wanted to get over his injury, should Lees have been let off?

  On 11/03/2014 at 02:34, Baghdad Bob said:

We need more rational thinkers and less pedants. These kids have been punished beyond imagination and now people want more.

I don't get that and I don't accept the "deterrent" argument. We are entitled to rely on professional advice in a professional environment.

i thought the professional advice (Doctor) at essendon was against the "pharmacological experiment"

  On 11/03/2014 at 02:34, Baghdad Bob said:

We need more rational thinkers and less pedants. These kids have been punished beyond imagination and now people want more.

I don't get that and I don't accept the "deterrent" argument. We are entitled to rely on professional advice in a professional environment.

Yes we are, but we are not in the same situation as sportsmen.

You are allowing your sympathy for the players being screwed by their club to cloud your judgement. To expand on the point Redleg and I made, if players are not punished for drug taking in these circumstances, the norm for real drug cheats and their clubs will be to employ a scapegoat coach who takes the rap if they are caught out.