We must trade pick 2

[Moonshadow 17,602]

I would say Frawley is one of a few non trade players, absolutely required. I would put Garland and Jones in that bracket and trade anyone else.

Interesting. Nearly all clubs would say there are few players of ours they'd be bothered enquiring about. And they'd lol if we said we were in a position to put players on an untouchable list.

I too want Chip to stay, but in a swap for, say, Dustin Martin or Nate Fyfe? I'd do that any day of the week. What do we need more desperately, good defenders or good midfielders?

[dee-luded 2,959]

No other club will want the likes of Jamar, JMc2.0, Nicholson, etc.

Adams wants to return to Victoria, from all reports, but like Caddy last year he will want to go to a contender not the likes of us. Tigers are reportedly super-keen.

Because we are at rock-bottom in terms of our appeal to free agents, players wanting to 'come home', etc., I don't see how we have any choice but to build through the draft.

Which means using pick #2 (plus hopefully a priority pick straight after it) on two mids from this year's draft.

The only way I could see this changing was if we were handed the #1 ahead of GWS, and then the effective rights to Boyd would be up for grabs.

Adelaide, Brisbane, Carlton, Collingwood, Fremantle, Port, Richmond, Saints, and especially Footscray would all be super-keen you would think as all need a young key forward that they can mould then build around to various degrees.

Who knows, if we got the pick it may be a super-complicated deal where we trade to GWS who on-trade to a third club.

But there's a lot of water to go under the bridge before then; judging by yesterday's respective performances, there's every chance GWS may snag a couple of cheeky wins and move past us on the ladder on the run home.

A lot will depend upon the AFL Commission and their decision regarding a priority pick otherwise.

I don't think the AFL will give us a priority pick ahead of Pick 1, as this will undermine the GWS chances of getting what they need to help them... thery're in a worse spot than us.

So I think GWS will trade Pick 1 to a club who are after a power forward, who has a player who can help GWS thru physical maturity & games experience. like the Pies with Daisy Thomas,,, or the Hawks with Buddy,,, or the Blues with Yarran + their 1st pick...

Buddy will cost GWS their first 2 picks.

Daisy would imo = a 1st pick?

the blues will need to offer 2 players, or a player & pick around P9....

In this scenario, we will then have our Pick @ 2,,, & maybe some compensation??? immediately following P2, or mid first Rnd Pick?

do whatever you can to get Dale Thomas

Taylor adams

i dont care if we lose pick 2 and our second round pick

get these boys!

id be willing to do

pick 2- Dale Thomas (he gets 700k a year)

T Adams- Second Round pick, Mark Jamar

or

Free Agency- Thomas (700k a year)

T adams and second round pick- pick 2, Jamar

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-collingwood-magpies--dale-thomas

just thinking about D Thomas. I wonder if his best season is way behind him??? his last 2 years under malthouse were very good, but has slid since... IF he is worth his salt & pay, then Micky will chase him hard... otherwise I'm feeling caution!!!

Carlton need Both Boyd & a top Mid.. if they don't go after Thomas, then I'd steer away from Him as well.

Edited July 28, 2013 by dee-luded

[Sir Why You Little 36,761]

We can do better than Daisy Thomas. I have been told his ankle is not good by Filth diehards.

We don't need another Templeton, as much as he tried to honour the deal. His footy days were shot.

[CBDees 3,165]

If we get a priority, why not take Boyd if available? After all, our much-touted forwardline is not as over abundant as much as we may like to kid ourselves. Albeit without Hogan and Clark and with minimal delivery into our 50 metre arc (due to lack of mids) we must remember that we only scored four goals yesterday and that we played another bottom eight side (at home at Etihad thanks to the AFL).

Although our strategy must be to target mids, we would be remiss not to take the best available, particularly if he is a stand-out!

[praha 11,222]

trade pick 2? It would have to be a bloody good deal for us to do that.

Well dah!

[rjay 24,689]

Interesting. Nearly all clubs would say there are few players of ours they'd be bothered enquiring about. And they'd lol if we said we were in a position to put players on an untouchable list.

I too want Chip to stay, but in a swap for, say, Dustin Martin or Nate Fyfe? I'd do that any day of the week. What do we need more desperately, good defenders or good midfielders?

Fyfe is a very good player, Martin nowhere near him but you don't trade out a top key back for a mid. Ablett at 25yo the exception.

Buddy will cost GWS their first 2 picks.

Daisy would imo = a 1st pick?

the blues will need to offer 2 players, or a player & pick around P9....

Buddy and Daisy both free agents so won't cost them anything but cash and salary cap space.The blues won't be able to offer enough if Gibbs and Murphy are off the table.

[ChaserJ 4,830]

You have listed quite a few options there so I don't see why you can then state it ain't going to happen.

I can't see why people don't see how urgent this need is and think that another 18 year old player that takes time to develop is going to fix it.

In short if we don't improve on field soon the club will not be financially viable into the future and the biggest scope for us to improve list wise is to bring in quality mids - it must be done.

Not going to say a deal will be easy - but we have the pick plus the cap room so we have to be bold and thinking left field of the normal trade scenarios.

That is quite a list. Now how many of them would leave their clubs to join Melbourne? Why would a club trade away one of their best mids to draft another mid? Because apart from Boyd, scharenberg is the only point of difference who could go top 2, and he projects to be a utility. Edited July 28, 2013 by ChaserJ

[titan_uranus 24,926]

At the moment, there isn't anyone on the market worthy of pick 2.

Unless one of the true stars of the competition appears before us like the messiah, we need to keep pick 2 and draft the best midfielder available with it.

We'll still have pick 20-odd, and maybe a PP around 20 to use. We could/should be looking to trade those if there are mids available; they're not as special as pick 2 is.

[spirit of norm smith 15,558]

"At the moment, there isn't anyone on the market worthy of pick 2".

Agree 100%.

I would take Dominic Sheed right now as pick 2. I have been super impressed, and shows real STAR power.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Buddy and Daisy both free agents so won't cost them anything but cash and salary cap space.The blues won't be able to offer enough if Gibbs and Murphy are off the table.

Haven't you been reading anything in the last 6 weeks re Buddy?

I'm sure a deal will be tried... buddy will want to look after the Hawks as he should, & still take the money, & the Hawks will want to try to get a head start to rebuild, via a trade...

& I feel sure the AFL will Not want the free agency to cause the loss of marquee players from their clubs... but in this case they'll want buddy to be the flagship up in Sydney's west. so a deal makes sense to help out both... if buddy doesn't move, then another club will cough up...

Daisy, I'm sure Eddy would try to get a deal,,, in some form, or GWS will get targeted. I get the feeling that the Pies are ready for Thomas to leave?

# I think your wrong about the Blues. GWS are desperate for experience & maturity, but maybe 2 experienced players may be better for them, than one marquee player?

[Adam The God 29,682]

To the OP:

There are a few issues to consider. What do you expect to get for pick two? What could pick two become? And why would a current gun mid from another club want to be traded to Melbourne?

A club won't cast off a gun mid for pick 2 if said mid doesn't want to leave his club. The better clubs understand how important the fabric of a club is and how easily it can be compromised. The only way they'd do it is if the mid was willing to go. In what world would a present gun mid want to leave a top 8 club to come to Melbourne? And if they did I'd be second guessing myself if I wanted them.

You really need to name names if you want your thread to be taken seriously.

Also, just because our development and drafting has been a disaster I still realise where the bulk of the best players in the AFL come from. Invariably they are very early picks, or Father/Son selections. Franklin, Roughead, Hodge, Riewoldt, Selwood, Bartel, Griffen, Cotchin, Murphy, Deledio, Judd, Pendlebury, Pavlich are all top 10 picks, most top 5. O'Meara would have been top 5 (1), as would Hogan, Jeremy Cameron, Martin (GCS), Crouch. Not withstanding our bad luck, or ineptness, the best talent is invariably taken early. I'm loathe to give another club a leg up and miss out on what should be a great talent. Especially when I don't believe we'd get what you hope for. I'd give up pick 2 for Beams, but why on earth would he want to come to Melbourne? He wouldn't and Collingwood wouldn't do the deal.

I think most of us understand there are no quick fixes. Essendon traded out Blumfield, Heffernan and Caracella, who were all premiership mids. Guess what? You would have thought at the time it was hitting the jackpot to get all three. In truth they looked good in a great team. There are many good AFL mids that would suddenly look decidedly average wearing red and blue. It's far easier to play well in a good side than a poor one. Imo, we must stay the course and draft the best young mids we can and hopefully a PP will aid that cause.

If I supported GWS I'd be excited. Yes they usually get a belting, but this young team will grow together to become a force. They drafted too many young kids, whereas the Gold Coast were lucky enough to get Ablett, plus a few other solid senior players, but their talent will grow and bond together and their youthfulness affords them time. It has to be the youth path at Melbourne and if we recruit and develop them right our long-term future will be so much better than trading away precious early picks for more immediate gains.

Give me "substance" over "seeming" any day.

You've been advocating that we draft Kelly though haven't you, Ben? How would he help us win contested footy? We need more inside mids. Simply stockpiling youth is a path we've been done before. Without experience around the youth, footy teams fail. GWS is a prime example at the moment. You need that experience around the youngsters to assist and cultivate their growth and development.

During this coming off-season, we need at least one marquee inside mid. I keep saying Josh Kennedy from Sydney. Lucrative, long-term contract to bring him back to Melbourne in front of his friends and family. I understand the likelihood of snaring him is low, but we must be aggressive and we would hold the adequate compensation if he were interested in coming home. Obviously, the ideal scenario is Roos coming to Melbourne. That may sway Kennedy or another top Sydney mid.

If we have decent coaching, Kennedy and some FAs (Brad Sewell for example), you're suddenly far more competitive. You seem to have your finger on the U18 pulse more than I do. I'd be interested to read who else you'd target in this draft. We have plentiful youth, I'd be putting pick 2 on the table and seeing what experience is offered. If nothing decent is, then obviously you look to the draft and hope. From my admittedly less than knowledgeable position, this seems a reasonably weak draft for inside mids though. Loved to be proved wrong.

[angrydee 842]

To the OP:

There are a few issues to consider. What do you expect to get for pick two? What could pick two become? And why would a current gun mid from another club want to be traded to Melbourne?

A club won't cast off a gun mid for pick 2 if said mid doesn't want to leave his club. The better clubs understand how important the fabric of a club is and how easily it can be compromised. The only way they'd do it is if the mid was willing to go. In what world would a present gun mid want to leave a top 8 club to come to Melbourne? And if they did I'd be second guessing myself if I wanted them.

You really need to name names if you want your thread to be taken seriously.

Also, just because our development and drafting has been a disaster I still realise where the bulk of the best players in the AFL come from. Invariably they are very early picks, or Father/Son selections. Franklin, Roughead, Hodge, Riewoldt, Selwood, Bartel, Griffen, Cotchin, Murphy, Deledio, Judd, Pendlebury, Pavlich are all top 10 picks, most top 5. O'Meara would have been top 5 (1), as would Hogan, Jeremy Cameron, Martin (GCS), Crouch. Not withstanding our bad luck, or ineptness, the best talent is invariably taken early. I'm loathe to give another club a leg up and miss out on what should be a great talent. Especially when I don't believe we'd get what you hope for. I'd give up pick 2 for Beams, but why on earth would he want to come to Melbourne? He wouldn't and Collingwood wouldn't do the deal.

I think most of us understand there are no quick fixes. Essendon traded out Blumfield, Heffernan and Caracella, who were all premiership mids. Guess what? You would have thought at the time it was hitting the jackpot to get all three. In truth they looked good in a great team. There are many good AFL mids that would suddenly look decidedly average wearing red and blue. It's far easier to play well in a good side than a poor one. Imo, we must stay the course and draft the best young mids we can and hopefully a PP will aid that cause.

If I supported GWS I'd be excited. Yes they usually get a belting, but this young team will grow together to become a force. They drafted too many young kids, whereas the Gold Coast were lucky enough to get Ablett, plus a few other solid senior players, but their talent will grow and bond together and their youthfulness affords them time. It has to be the youth path at Melbourne and if we recruit and develop them right our long-term future will be so much better than trading away precious early picks for more immediate gains.

Give me "substance" over "seeming" any day.

I rarely agree with you BH, but I do on this issue.

Top 5 picks, wisely used (something this club is not noted for) normally gets a very good to champion player.

There are a number of potentially top class midfielders in this draft.

Luckily there are some smart people at the club now. They won't trade pick 2.

[John Crow Batty 8,832]

With our abysmal record of first round draft picks I believe we could do much better by trading them all for seasoned midfield players ready to go. We have no more time left to develop juniors with the starvation rations currently delivered by our midfileld. We have tallent in the back/forward/ruck well on their way.

[Ted Lasso 18,914]

i think aish is who we will get for pick 2, we may have pick 1 but who knows?

we should certainly be open to offers as we should for every player on our list given our 6 wins in the last 2 years

[Nasher 33,607]

There's actually also the real possibility that it could be pick 3. Go ahead and laugh if you want, but look at the ladder, our draw and St Kilda's draw first.

[stuie 7,374]

And what did GWS get for their mini draft picks? Experienced players or draft picks? Clubs don't want to give up quality players for picks, even high picks.

That was the decision of GWS though. They were given those picks and expected to trade them, but instead they used them.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

There's actually also the real possibility that it could be pick 3. Go ahead and laugh if you want, but look at the ladder, our draw and St Kilda's draw first.

Slightly off topic but it is frightening that two teams lost by over 100 points this round and neither were the expansion teams.

With more teams the talent pool is being stretched and it becomes that much more difficult to get to the top.

[Hannibal 5,814]

You've been advocating that we draft Kelly though haven't you, Ben? How would he help us win contested footy? We need more inside mids. Simply stockpiling youth is a path we've been done before. Without experience around the youth, footy teams fail. GWS is a prime example at the moment. You need that experience around the youngsters to assist and cultivate their growth and development.

No, I think I've made it clear that "I'm not wedded to anyone this year, just get it right".

I like Kelly, Aish and a couple of others.

We "need" lots of things. In the main we need class.

Who do you think we'll get for pick 2 ?

Edited July 28, 2013 by Ben-Hur

[Guest Demon Abroad]

Words can't...

Why on earth would anyone think trading pick 2 would be a good idea??

Unless we can get a Dangerfield (which we won't) we should retain it and develop.

I believe there is an irrational fear of developing amongst many of our supporters, but it is the way forward with pointy end draft picks.

How it the retaining top picks and developing them working for us so far?

Many more years like this and last will see the club out of business

[Guest Demon Abroad]

I rarely agree with you BH, but I do on this issue.

Top 5 picks, wisely used (something this club is not noted for) normally gets a very good to champion player.

There are a number of potentially top class midfielders in this draft.

Luckily there are some smart people at the club now. They won't trade pick 2.

"potentially top class" says it all

We can't afford to blow another top draft pick. Each of the top 5 picks we have had in recent years are not performing to that level - Morton, Watts, Trengove and Scully (despite the fact he is at another club we still picked him there)

For the immediate future of the club we need to move heaven and earth to get another quality mid in right now and pick 2 plus our cap room gives us the best hope of doing it

[Moonshadow 17,602]

That was the decision of GWS though. They were given those picks and expected to trade them, but instead they used them.

True. But it was their (and the AFLs) intention that they trade in experience. They couldn't get clubs to part with quality, experienced players for mini draft picks. Neither will we.

Quoted from AFL website:

"But Silvagni said despite the Giants' best efforts, the clubs bidding for the rights to the country's elite 17-year-olds had preferred to offer draft picks.

"Our focus initially was to get some quality players through the door, senior players," Silvagni told Gillette AFL Trade Radio on Wednesday.

"Having said that, probably clubs weren't forthcoming in terms of what we wanted. We knew that the picks were valuable and obviously we wanted quality players back.

"I can totally understand why those clubs didn't want to give up those players.

"So we really needed to move forward and look to secure the best possible picks that these priority picks could bring."

Silvagni said he had no doubt the AFL wanted the Giants to use the mini-draft to attract senior opposition players.

Edit. Sorry, can't do the quote in a box thing.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Moonshadow

[Moonshadow 17,602]

Fyfe is a very good player, Martin nowhere near him but you don't trade out a top key back for a mid. Ablett at 25yo the exception.

I'm sure you are aware that Ablett Jnr wasn't traded, rjay.

But we differ in opinion. The simple fact is we have one midfielder ATM who is arguably B+ grade, Nate Jones. Games are won in the midfield. I'd reluctantly swap Chip for Fyfe or Martin any day. A really good mid who potentially gets 30-35 possessions regularly is worth more than a really good key back. It's been so long, we've forgotten the true value of that type of player.

You have to give up quality to get quality.

[Guest Demon Abroad]

To the OP:

There are a few issues to consider. What do you expect to get for pick two? What could pick two become? And why would a current gun mid from another club want to be traded to Melbourne?

A club won't cast off a gun mid for pick 2 if said mid doesn't want to leave his club. The better clubs understand how important the fabric of a club is and how easily it can be compromised. The only way they'd do it is if the mid was willing to go. In what world would a present gun mid want to leave a top 8 club to come to Melbourne? And if they did I'd be second guessing myself if I wanted them.

You really need to name names if you want your thread to be taken seriously.

Also, just because our development and drafting has been a disaster I still realise where the bulk of the best players in the AFL come from. Invariably they are very early picks, or Father/Son selections. Franklin, Roughead, Hodge, Riewoldt, Selwood, Bartel, Griffen, Cotchin, Murphy, Deledio, Judd, Pendlebury, Pavlich are all top 10 picks, most top 5. O'Meara would have been top 5 (1), as would Hogan, Jeremy Cameron, Martin (GCS), Crouch. Not withstanding our bad luck, or ineptness, the best talent is invariably taken early. I'm loathe to give another club a leg up and miss out on what should be a great talent. Especially when I don't believe we'd get what you hope for. I'd give up pick 2 for Beams, but why on earth would he want to come to Melbourne? He wouldn't and Collingwood wouldn't do the deal.

I think most of us understand there are no quick fixes. Essendon traded out Blumfield, Heffernan and Caracella, who were all premiership mids. Guess what? You would have thought at the time it was hitting the jackpot to get all three. In truth they looked good in a great team. There are many good AFL mids that would suddenly look decidedly average wearing red and blue. It's far easier to play well in a good side than a poor one. Imo, we must stay the course and draft the best young mids we can and hopefully a PP will aid that cause.

If I supported GWS I'd be excited. Yes they usually get a belting, but this young team will grow together to become a force. They drafted too many young kids, whereas the Gold Coast were lucky enough to get Ablett, plus a few other solid senior players, but their talent will grow and bond together and their youthfulness affords them time. It has to be the youth path at Melbourne and if we recruit and develop them right our long-term future will be so much better than trading away precious early picks for more immediate gains.

Give me "substance" over "seeming" any day.

I am not privy to the contract or personal life situations of every top line mid in the competition (some on here seem to think they are) therefore I cannot prepare a list of all these types, but the point of the thread is that people can discuss the idea and present their thoughts of who might be available therefore I don't think it is necessary to make a list of names for the thread to be taken seriously.

Obviously a deal would not be done unless it is for a very quality player - that goes without saying.

With regards to the who would want to come to Melbourne situation - the same could have been said about Clark and Dawes in recent years but money and personal situations can have some influence on this we can't have such a defeatist attitude to not try at all.

If we are still on this long-term development mind set then we are in trouble - how many more seasons like the last two can we manage before we are too great a financial liability for the AFL? Comparisons to GWS are foolish as they are an AFL start up and were always going to be given the time to get up and going, we are a product of our own ineptness and must take responsibility to get it right - it would be wrong to expect the AFL to underwrite us for more years of this so called development.

We cannot afford to "stay the course" as the course we are on is not going anywhere - surely this is patently obvious. None of our top 5 draft picks in recent years are performing to that level and I do not see why another 18 year old unproven to the rigors of AFL is in any way substance over seeming - you will need to explain that to me.

[titan_uranus 24,926]

You've been advocating that we draft Kelly though haven't you, Ben? How would he help us win contested footy? We need more inside mids. Simply stockpiling youth is a path we've been done before. Without experience around the youth, footy teams fail. GWS is a prime example at the moment. You need that experience around the youngsters to assist and cultivate their growth and development.

During this coming off-season, we need at least one marquee inside mid. I keep saying Josh Kennedy from Sydney. Lucrative, long-term contract to bring him back to Melbourne in front of his friends and family. I understand the likelihood of snaring him is low, but we must be aggressive and we would hold the adequate compensation if he were interested in coming home. Obviously, the ideal scenario is Roos coming to Melbourne. That may sway Kennedy or another top Sydney mid.

If we have decent coaching, Kennedy and some FAs (Brad Sewell for example), you're suddenly far more competitive. You seem to have your finger on the U18 pulse more than I do. I'd be interested to read who else you'd target in this draft. We have plentiful youth, I'd be putting pick 2 on the table and seeing what experience is offered. If nothing decent is, then obviously you look to the draft and hope. From my admittedly less than knowledgeable position, this seems a reasonably weak draft for inside mids though. Loved to be proved wrong.

Your little hypothetical at the end there sounds nice, until you stop and think logically about it. You're doing exactly what BH said is the problem - living in a world where these players just show up at the MFC.

Why would Kennedy leave Sydney to come to Melbourne? That's leaving the 2012 and possibly 2013 premier, a club that isn't exactly going to fall off the cliff next year, to go to the potential wooden spooner of 2013, a club whose future, if you're the only one who shows up, is still rather bleak. We're not GWS, we're not made of money. Why would he want to come here? Sydney may want pick 2, but they'll want Kennedy just as much, if not more, so that is simply never, ever going to happen.

With more teams the talent pool is being stretched and it becomes that much more difficult to get to the top.

I really dislike this overly pessimistic view. Yes, right now there are some weak teams. But that's because the previous few drafts have been compromised to give GC and GWS a head start.

The idea of having those sides is that in the long term the talent pool will expand and there will be more players to go around. Nothing has happened to suggest otherwise. With time, GC and GWS will get stronger, and they'll win games, which will make them attractive and their support in their locations will go up. The short term pain of giving them the players and resources to work with will end up in long term gain for the entire competition.

In each year there have always been really poor sides. The fact that there are a couple of them right now does not say anything about the talent pool.

With regards to the who would want to come to Melbourne situation - the same could have been said about Clark and Dawes in recent years but money and personal situations can have some influence on this we can't have such a defeatist attitude to not try at all.

Of course we can try, but this is different to Clark and Dawes. We didn't give up pick 2 for either of them.

Given that midfielders are easier to get out of high draft picks than KPFs are, we need a clear star for pick 2, and there isn't one available. Simple as that.

[Guest Demon Abroad]

Of course we can try, but this is different to Clark and Dawes. We didn't give up pick 2 for either of them.

Given that midfielders are easier to get out of high draft picks than KPFs are, we need a clear star for pick 2, and there isn't one available. Simple as that.

What pick we did or did not give up as nothing to do with the players desire or otherwise to come to the club.

I find it amazing that so many on here have intimate details of the contractual status of every single available player in the competition.