OUT: Abbott IN: Turnbull

[DemonFrog 1,359]

thanks for the link

Here is the alleged offense

"The slides, produced by the directorate for the US National Security Agency (NSA) show the operation lasted five days in August 2009 and came a month after terrorist bombings of two hotels in Jakarta which killed seven people, including three Australians."

I must be thick coz I didn't realise Abbott or the Liberal party were in power in 2009

You need to keep up with National events DC.

LOL

[DemonFrog 1,359]

It not that I only disliked Tony, I also could not stand ...

Edited November 19, 2013 by TheBigFrog

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Wow, someone who wants to discuss the actual issue itself. Benjamin, take notice,

Yes it occurred in 09, and Abbott can't be held accountable for the act itself. Indeed the act itself isn't what I'm critical of, it is the nature of Abbott's public response to the leak that I think has been handled poorly and has been cited by Indonesia as unsatisfactory.

Is it a storm in a teacup that they'll just need to get over? Let's hope so.

What do you expect him to say? We did it, he wasn't responsible, but can't deny it and still he has to carry the can.

This was under the previous Governments watch and even some on this board are so thick they don't realise it; the Mad Monk has to clean up the [censored] left by Rudd and coy.

[P-man 13,366]

What do you expect him to say? We did it, he wasn't responsible, but can't deny it and still he has to carry the can.

This was under the previous Governments watch and even some on this board are so thick they don't realise it; the Mad Monk has to clean up the [censored] left by Rudd and coy.

Sorry Rob, but that is a load of rot. The act itself isn't the issue, governments do it. Don't call others thick if you can't even appreciate that.

It is how this is being handled from here that is of utmost importance. Indonesia want an explanation. The Indonesian Foreign Minister's language could not have been stronger. As the Ambassador boards his plane back home, all Abbott has said this morning is "we don't discuss international security matters" and "we have a strong relationship with Indonesia". These wooden, dismissive responses won't fly any more and they are damaging.

This is a big test for Abbott, and becomes even more crucial given Indonesia are on the cusp of elections. Their next President may not be as easygoing as the current one has been.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Sorry Rob, but that is a load of rot. The act itself isn't the issue, governments do it. Don't call others thick if you can't even appreciate that.

It is how this is being handled from here that is of utmost importance. Indonesia want an explanation. The Indonesian Foreign Minister's language could not have been stronger. As the Ambassador boards his plane back home, all Abbott has said this morning is "we don't discuss international security matters" and "we have a strong relationship with Indonesia". These wooden, dismissive responses won't fly any more and they are damaging.

This is a big test for Abbott, and becomes even more crucial given Indonesia are on the cusp of elections. Their next President may not be as easygoing as the current one has been.

That wasn't directed at you, but whilst we are talking about it, how would suggest he handle it; perhaps you'd like to pass on the benefit of your wisdom?

We've been caught out and there's no denying that; all I've got from you so far is how badly he's handled it, so what about you give us the correct response.

Sorry do? Perhaps; we won't do it again?

Plus you look at everything that Abbott does and try to find fault in it, so your hardly impartial.

Edited November 19, 2013 by RobbieF

[daisycutter 29,892]

seems like damned if you do and damned if you don't

personally i wouldn't trust indonesia's motives for blowing this up. one of the most corrupt countries in the world and with as many (if not more) human rights issues than Sri Lanka which the hypocritical zealots of the left are now so keen to make issue with

[Dee Fan 3,247]

seems like damned if you do and damned if you don't

personally i wouldn't trust indonesia's motives for blowing this up. one of the most corrupt countries in the world and with as many (if not more) human rights issues than Sri Lanka which the hypocritical zealots of the left are now so keen to make issue with

Exactly they ignore what's occurred in the provinces and only look for whatever [censored] they can find on Abbott. None of them complain when we donate $B's to the Indonesians, but sent a couple of old boats to Sri Lanka and they raise the roof.

The Sri Lankans have/had been at war with the Tamals who have committed appaling war crimes; but that's ok, isn't it.

[P-man 13,366]

Gents, I prefer to think of myself as a bit left of centre thanks.

Rob, I'm not going to pretend this situation is simple, it isn't. Asking a government to apologise for the actions under a previous administration is a big call. But the fact of the matter is that this is now in a damage control phase , and Abbott's responses are not helpful, they are the opposite.

I would be saying that the demands for an explanation from the Indo government are understandable and will be met.

Something about it being previous practice that will be investigated, and if it is needed, offer an apology. We're only doing this at the US's behest anyway.

A lot of it can be diplomatic speak and [censored], but this needs to be hosed down, not dismissed.

[Johnny Karate 559]

Not a fan of Abbott or the Libs but WTF else can he do? I would've been more shocked if there wasn't any surveillance of Indonesian officials. I'd be equally as stunned if they weren't doing it to our leaders.

It is also noteworthy that Indonesia has elections coming up - there is plenty of political mileage to be gained from chest beating about foreigners spying on national leaders. Just as there is nothing for Abbott to gain by saying: "we're weally sowwy it won't happen again".

[daisycutter 29,892]

Gents, I prefer to think of myself as a bit left of centre thanks.

Rob, I'm not going to pretend this situation is simple, it isn't. Asking a government to apologise for the actions under a previous administration is a big call. But the fact of the matter is that this is now in a damage control phase , and Abbott's responses are not helpful, they are the opposite.

I would be saying that the demands for an explanation from the Indo government are understandable and will be met.

Something about it being previous practice that will be investigated, and if it is needed, offer an apology. We're only doing this at the US's behest anyway.

A lot of it can be diplomatic speak and [censored], but this needs to be hosed down, not dismissed.

and what makes you think those platitudes haven't already been spoken diplomatically in person with the indos?

could be the indos want more and the indo pollies have local political reasons to make a big noise

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Gents, I prefer to think of myself as a bit left of centre thanks.

Rob, I'm not going to pretend this situation is simple, it isn't. Asking a government to apologise for the actions under a previous administration is a big call. But the fact of the matter is that this is now in a damage control phase , and Abbott's responses are not helpful, they are the opposite.

I would be saying that the demands for an explanation from the Indo government are understandable and will be met.

Something about it being previous practice that will be investigated, and if it is needed, offer an apology. We're only doing this at the US's behest anyway.

A lot of it can be diplomatic speak and [censored], but this needs to be hosed down, not dismissed.

Perhaps very left of centre.

Maybe the faux outrage expressed by some on this board would be better directed towards those that caused the problem in the first place.

And this from the Labor side is beyond belief; no acceptance of responsibility at all.

Tony Abbott yesterday declined to comment on the spying allegations while defending Australia's right to gather information in the national interest which, he said, was used to help allies, not harm them.Mr Abbott today insisted Australia had a strong relationship with Indonesia but admitted "today may not be the best day in that relationship".He would not say whether he would offer an official apology over the spying scandal.Opposition leader Bill Shorten said the government had to get relations between the two countries back on track."Our relationship with Indonesia is one of the most important relationships Australia has with any other country," he said."I and Australians expect Prime Minister Abbott do everything he can to keep our relationship with Indonesia strong."Former Australian foreign minister Bob Carr said the leaking of the spying allegations was "nothing short of catastrophic" for Australia's relationship with Indonesia.He said there was a public sense in Indonesia that it always lost out in its dealing with foreigners, and "this would appear to confirm it".Mr Carr said the allegations would continue to damage relations between the two countries, with Indonesia's next president having little choice now but to publicly "lambast" Australia.He said Australia had to try and find a way forward, and criticised Mr Abbott's comments on the spying claims in parliament yesterday."The tone was too dismissive by far to have been helpful," he told ABC radio. -

[P-man 13,366]

and what makes you think those platitudes haven't already been spoken diplomatically in person with the indos?

could be the indos want more and the indo pollies have local political reasons to make a big noise

That may be the case, although withdrawing the Ambassador seems pretty extreme to be merely a political stunt. I hope you're correct, because the relationship is too important. Whatever the case, Abbott's doctrine of a foreign policy that "focuses on Jakarta more than Geneva" is not exactly off to a flying start.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

That may be the case, although withdrawing the Ambassador seems pretty extreme to be merely a political stunt. I hope you're correct, because the relationship is too important. Whatever the case, Abbott's doctrine of a foreign policy that "focuses on Jakarta more than Geneva" is not exactly off to a flying start.

It's all posturing; note he left his family here. They have probably known about this for a long time but now are using it for Political Capital.

Don't seem so outraged, it does your credibility no good.

[P-man 13,366]

It's all posturing; note he left his family here. They have probably known about this for a long time but now are using it for Political Capital.

Don't seem so outraged, it does your credibility no good.

I use emotive language, sometimes to a fault, but it doesn't mean I'm outraged. When I'm outraged I'll say so.

But you need to understand Rob that your mob is now in government. You're a bit like Hockey in taking a while to adjust to that. They are the ones that are now to be held to account.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

I use emotive language, sometimes to a fault, but it doesn't mean I'm outraged. When I'm outraged I'll say so.

But you need to understand Rob that your mob is now in government. You're a bit like Hockey in taking a while to adjust to that. They are the ones that are now to be held to account.

Oh I understand that and I know that the Indonesians don't care who did it, they just want a response that suits them and their current political needs; hence the tweets from SBY. But I would have thought that the people of Australia, and I'm sure the vast majority, will blame the previous Government, not this one.

Just as they will when the Treasury release the state of the economy, they'll place the blame exactly where it should be; you know where that is don't you?

[daisycutter 29,892]

Perhaps very left of centre.

robbie it's a common property of people who claim to be little bit left of centre that they have great difficulty of knowing where centre actually is

not saying this applies to p-man but

[P-man 13,366]

Oh I understand that and I know that the Indonesians don't care who did it, they just want a response that suits them and their current political needs; hence the tweets from SBY. But I would have thought that the people of Australia, and I'm sure the vast majority, will blame the previous Government, not this one.

Just as they will when the Treasury release the state of the economy, they'll place the blame exactly where it should be; you know where that is don't you?

I only say that because almost every post of yours in a discussion about the current government attempts to turn the focus on either Labor, who I reiterate are now in Opposition, or the media that you think has a vendetta against Abbott. If you want to talk about "credibility" (which doesn't bother me tbh), yours isn't helped by that.

The blame? Blame for what? This is common practice under all governments, surely you acknowledge that. So what blame, exactly? The blame for the leak is Snowden and to an extent the ABC for choosing to making it all very public.

We know the state of the economy when Labor lost government. All that has been asked for is some sort of justification for raising the debt cap to 500 billion, when debt was only estimated to reach 360 billion by 2016. Hockey is refusing, and spinning the line about "this is Labor's mess". How gullible/understanding does he expect people to be? Don't you want a transparent government? Remember this is after a campaign about cutting the waste and REDUCING the debt.

Edited November 19, 2013 by P-man

[Bluey's Dad 3,419]

robbie it's a common property of people who claim to be little bit left of centre that they have great difficulty of knowing where centre actually is

not saying this applies to p-man but

Yep, that's been my experience.

Before reading many posters here, I figured I was a little left of centre. After reading a lot of the more conservative views, I think I'm actually a lot more left than I initially thought.

It's hard being a leftie in Australia when your representatives are rubbish, maybe that's why I hesitate to identify with them.

[Bluey's Dad 3,419]

We know the state of the economy when Labor lost government. All that has been asked for is some sort of justification for raising the debt cap to 500 billion, when debt was only estimated to reach 360 billion by 2016. Hockey is refusing, and spinning the line about "this is Labor's mess". How gullible/understanding does he expect people to be? Don't you want a transparent government? Remember this is after a campaign about cutting the waste and REDUCING the debt.

Unfortunately one of the great features of being a conservative government is not really having to justify things. Without making any value judgements, it's been my observation that there will always be a greater expectation on left governments to reform, because that's what their voters expect. Conservatives on the other hand are generally concerned with maintaining the status quo, so their supporter base doesn't have to be appeased as much. That's not to say a conservative government can't reform (often they can and do), but the supporter base of conservative parties generally don't demand it unless it's in response to some sort of threat.

I have no stats to back this up (haven't looked for any), those are just my impressions.

*awaits accusations of being thick*

[P-man 13,366]

Yep, that's been my experience.

Before reading many posters here, I figured I was a little left of centre. After reading a lot of the more conservative views, I think I'm actually a lot more left than I initially thought.

It's hard being a leftie in Australia when your representatives are rubbish, maybe that's why I hesitate to identify with them.

Australian society still has a deeply conservative element to it and I don't see that changing any time soon.

I don't like being labelled a lefty because that to me is pretty much being a Greens voter, which I am not and never will be.

[P-man 13,366]

Unfortunately one of the great features of being a conservative government is not really having to justify things. Without making any value judgements, it's been my observation that there will always be a greater expectation on left governments to reform, because that's what their voters expect. Conservatives on the other hand are generally concerned with maintaining the status quo, so their supporter base doesn't have to be appeased as much. That's not to say a conservative government can't reform (often they can and do), but the supporter base of conservative parties generally don't demand it unless it's in response to some sort of threat.

I have no stats to back this up (haven't looked for any), those are just my impressions.

*awaits accusations of being thick*

I think the phrase is "born to rule".

I agree with your impressions.

Edited November 19, 2013 by P-man

[Dee Fan 3,247]

I only say that because almost every post of yours in a discussion about the current government attempts to turn the focus on either Labor, who I reiterate are now in Opposition, or the media that you think has a vendetta against Abbott. If you want to talk about "credibility" (which doesn't bother me tbh), yours isn't helped by that.

The blame? Blame for what? This is common practice under all governments, surely you acknowledge that. So what blame, exactly? The blame for the leak is Snowden and to an extent the ABC for choosing to making it all very public.

We know the state of the economy when Labor lost government. All that has been asked for is some sort of justification for raising the debt cap to 500 billion, when debt was only estimated to reach 360 billion by 2016. Hockey is refusing, and spinning the line about "this is Labor's mess". How gullible/understanding does he expect people to be? Don't you want a transparent government? Remember this is after a campaign about cutting the waste and REDUCING the debt.

Might I remind you that the current Government has only been in power for a couple of months and most of this Country's current problems are as a direct result of the previous Governments incompetence. You seem to ignore that in your haste to blame Abbot for everything. Let me remind you the previous Government were so much on the nose they were humiliated at the last election. So yeah I blame them for a lot of our current problems whilst you choose to ignore that fact; you talk about my credibility, wow.

The ABC would have been orgasmic over this and an opportunity to stick it up Abbott, they don't care about the consequences.

The debt ceiling, well there's a good one. The Labor Party and the Greens and the idiotic independents do what all good Labor Party's do, spend, spend, spend and leave the Country in a mess financially but rather than shrink in to the shadows they want to highlight it and shift blame on the Libs for increasing the country's debt; are they/you serious?

Let's see how high the debt goes to and how quickly it gets there.

[P-man 13,366]

Might I remind you that the current Government has only been in power for a couple of months and most of this Country's current problems are as a direct result of the previous Governments incompetence. You seem to ignore that in your haste to blame Abbot for everything. Let me remind you the previous Government were so much on the nose they were humiliated at the last election. So yeah I blame them for a lot of our current problems whilst you choose to ignore that fact; you talk about my credibility, wow.

The ABC would have been orgasmic over this and an opportunity to stick it up Abbott, they don't care about the consequences.

The debt ceiling, well there's a good one. The Labor Party and the Greens and the idiotic independents do what all good Labor Party's do, spend, spend, spend and leave the Country in a mess financially but rather than shrink in to the shadows they want to highlight it and shift blame on the Libs for increasing the country's debt; are they/you serious?

Let's see how high the debt goes to and how quickly it gets there.

If it gets anywhere near 500 billion dollars, there is absolutely no excuse for it.

If the Coalition are plainly moronic enough to do things like repeal the carbon tax but keep the compensation measures, or pay out squillions in maternity leave to high income earners who simply do not need need it, they can lie in their own bed and they can be held rightly responsible.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

I think the phrase is "born to rule".

I agree with your impressions.

Born to Rule, well that would be more in line with the Current Labor oppositions Australia wide at the moment.

Did you actually read what Choke said? If you didn't then I suggest you do and if you did I suggest you read it again.

Talk about contradiction, they do they don't.

Unfortunately one of the great features of being a conservative government is not really having to justify things. Without making any value judgements, it's been my observation that there will always be a greater expectation on left governments to reform, because that's what their voters expect.

Conservatives on the other hand are generally concerned with maintaining the status quo, so their supporter base doesn't have to be appeased as much. That's not to say a conservative government can't reform (often they can and do), but the supporter base of conservative parties generally don't demand it unless it's in response to some sort of threat.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

If it gets anywhere near 500 billion dollars, there is absolutely no excuse for it.

If the Coalition are plainly moronic enough to do things like repeal the carbon tax but keep the compensation measures, or pay out squillions in maternity leave to high income earners who simply do not need need it, they can lie in their own bed and they can be held rightly responsible.

Let's just wait and see.

So you will excuse the Labor Government for getting it to $400b and breaking election promises, but criticise the Liberals for keeping their election promises.

You are kidding aren't you?

You know what P-man I really don't know where you stand, if you stand anywhere at all; you say you aren't Labor, but refuse to criticise them, you don't want to be associated with the Greens, you hate Abbott just what do you stand for?

Edited November 19, 2013 by RobbieF