Culture... from the top end to the supporters..

[censored] anyways

  On 28/05/2013 at 21:29, Dr John Dee said:

You probably meant 'If the answer is "yes" ...' but the statement would be just as ridiculous.

There are different ways - with different histories - of using words like ape and monkey and chimpanzee etc. When they're used about black people, the meaning is clear enough and it's got nothing to do with whether anyone does or doesn't look like an ape or monkey or chimpanzee.

By your logic (if that's what it is) it's perfectly ok for soccer crowds in Europe to make monkey noises at black players because anyone can have monkey noises made at them.

For someone who was claiming elsewhere a higher knowledge/understanding of Aboriginal experience, you're pretty bloody naive.

So according to you no black person can be compared to a monkey, but white people can? How is that a healthy attitude?

We have a situation where people are so worried about being racist that they draw undue attention to the entire concept of race. In my opinion, that is far more damaging to society than a thirteen year-old's silly remarks.

You might call me naive, but I'm only addressing the fundamental problem of racism - and it's not that people insult one another, it's that that people even care about a person's race at all.

In a good world, Adam Goodes would not have been called an ape. In a perfect world, neither he nor anyone else would have drawn an inference to race at all. We should all be free to insult each other on a one-to-one basis, without fear that our remarks will be commandeered by entire groups of people we didn't intend to offend.

How do we reach this perfect world? Can it be done, or will we always be so race-conscious?

Although I am white as can be, I can sympathise as to where Goodes is coming from. Having a very Irish last name, I copped a fair bit of grief as a kid during the troubles in Ireland. Drove me nuts lol My family have lived in Australia for a number of generations and the main line actually came from Spain...long story lol. The point being a number of pretty offensive terms were thrown my way for reasons I really didn't understand. The term ape and monkey have long been used to denigrate people as sub human. Many racist tracts have used brow ridges, hue of skin etc and thus are closer to apes, to try to prove that black people are inferior. Education is key.

The media handled the issue poorly. If the kid used the term in ignorance, they should have just moved on from the girl and explained why the term was offensive in that context. Hanging her out to dry served no purpose and only clouded the education opportunity.

  On 29/05/2013 at 01:28, Chook said:

So according to you no black person can be compared to a monkey, but white people can? How is that a healthy attitude?

We have a situation where people are so worried about being racist that they draw undue attention to the entire concept of race. In my opinion, that is far more damaging to society than a thirteen year-old's silly remarks.

You might call me naive, but I'm only addressing the fundamental problem of racism - and it's not that people insult one another, it's that that people even care about a person's race at all.

In a good world, Adam Goodes would not have been called an ape. In a perfect world, neither he nor anyone else would have drawn an inference to race at all. We should all be free to insult each other on a one-to-one basis, without fear that our remarks will be commandeered by entire groups of people we didn't intend to offend.

How do we reach this perfect world? Can it be done, or will we always be so race-conscious?

Naive is probably too generous.

Do you have any idea of the history of racism? Do you have any idea of the history of the language of racism?

Words like 'monkey' used by a white person about a black person are used to degrade by suggesting that the latter is subhuman/primitive/'just down from the trees' and so on. Your description of George Bush as a monkey has got nothing to do with this, it's got nothing to do with the colour of his skin and it's got nothing to do with racism, just as a black person describing another black person as a monkey wouldn't either, although because of the specific history of the word there probably wouldn't be too many who'd choose to use it about someone else anyway.

And no you're not trying to get at the fundamental question of racism at all. Trying to separate racism from the language and symbols and behaviours through which it's enacted isn't just naive, it's stupid.

  On 29/05/2013 at 02:49, Dr John Dee said:

Dr John Dee, on 29 May 2013 - 12:39, said:

Naive is probably too generous.

Do you have any idea of the history of racism? Do you have any idea of the history of the language of racism?

Words like 'monkey' used by a white person about a black person are used to degrade by suggesting that the latter is subhuman/primitive/'just down from the trees' and so on. Your description of George Bush as a monkey has got nothing to do with this, it's got nothing to do with the colour of his skin and it's got nothing to do with racism, just as a black person describing another black person as a monkey wouldn't either, although because of the specific history of the word there probably wouldn't be too many who'd choose to use it about someone else anyway.

And no you're not trying to get at the fundamental question of racism at all. Trying to separate racism from the language and symbols and behaviours through which it's enacted isn't just naive, it's stupid.

It seems to me that you're part of the problem. Your argument is that since people have historically cared about skin colour, we need to continue caring about it in perpetuity. Why must that be the case?

My criticism of George Bush was supposed to denote all the things you mentioned, but because I'm white and he's white I'm somehow excused? Why? How does that make sense, unless your only argument is from historical guilt?

I'm perfectly aware of the history of racism, but just because I've decided it might be a good idea to leave it in the stone age where it belongs, you want to label me naive and stupid? Talk about offensive!

  On 29/05/2013 at 03:03, Chook said:

It seems to me that you're part of the problem. Your argument is that since people have historically cared about skin colour, we need to continue caring about it in perpetuity. Why must that be the case?

My criticism of George Bush was supposed to denote all the things you mentioned, but because I'm white and he's white I'm somehow excused? Why? How does that make sense, unless your only argument is from historical guilt?

It's like talking to a brick wall.

Racism in its European/American practices can and has been traced to the beginnings of the slave trade. Racist language was a tool used to dehumanise Africans, thereby functioning to legitimise slavery. That's not an argument it's a history. I wasn't in fact making any argument, I was referring to that history. And to refer to that history has nothing to do with guilt about it either.

By defining racism as 'caring about' skin colour - a pointless and misguided definition at most - you completely miss the full and complex reality of the problem, but that's your choice. Don't impose that inadequacy on me.

BTW other forms of racism have had nothing to do with skin colour. Check out the word 'barbarian' some time. It derives from the word the Ancient Greeks used for people who weren't Greek and it was supposed to describe the way they talked, nothing to do with how they looked.

  On 29/05/2013 at 03:22, Dr John Dee said:

It's like talking to a brick wall.

Racism in its European/American practices can and has been traced to the beginnings of the slave trade. Racist language was a tool used to dehumanise Africans, thereby functioning to legitimise slavery. That's not an argument it's a history. I wasn't in fact making any argument, I was referring to that history. And to refer to that history has nothing to do with guilt about it either.

By defining racism as 'caring about' skin colour - a pointless and misguided definition at most - you completely miss the full and complex reality of the problem, but that's your choice. Don't impose that inadequacy on me.

BTW other forms of racism have had nothing to do with skin colour. Check out the word 'barbarian' some time. It derives from the word the Ancient Greeks used for people who weren't Greek and it was supposed to describe the way they talked, nothing to do with how they looked.

I know what barbarian used to mean and where it came from. In fact, it's a perfect example of the world moving on from a dark time in human history. If I'm called a barbarian, I don't get offended on a racial basis but rather on a more intellectual basis. A once racist word is no longer racist because its associated meaning has been altered.

The same thing has happened to the words [censored], [censored], [censored], dyke, heathen, Yankee, redneck, etc? Even that most heinous of N-Words has been reappropriated by African Americans (and even some white people heavily entrenched in so-called "black culture"). Those are all once derogatory words that were robbed of their power by people who refused to pay respect to the "complex reality" of history.

Live in the past if you like. I invite you to join the rest of us here in the future.

EDIT: Looks like Demonland agrees with you. Apparently "g a y", and "q u e e r" are not in common enough usage for the Political Correctometer to let them through. Oh well.

  On 29/05/2013 at 03:52, Chook said:

I know what barbarian used to mean and where it came from. In fact, it's a perfect example of the world moving on from a dark time in human history. If I'm called a barbarian, I don't get offended on a racial basis but rather on a more intellectual basis. A once racist word is no longer racist because its associated meaning has been altered.

The same thing has happened to the words [censored], [censored], [censored], dyke, heathen, Yankee, redneck, etc? Even that most heinous of N-Words has been reappropriated by African Americans (and even some white people heavily entrenched in so-called "black culture"). Those are all once derogatory words that were robbed of their power by people who refused to pay respect to the "complex reality" of history.

Live in the past if you like. I invite you to join the rest of us here in the future.

EDIT: Looks like Demonland agrees with you. Apparently "g a y", and "q u e e r" are not in common enough usage for the Political Correctometer to let them through. Oh well.

There's not much point saying anything to you when it comes back distorted beyond any recognition. But one last time here are a few points:

Referring to the past is not living in it.

The N word is exactly what I was talking about but you're so determined to prosecute some idiosyncratic version of racism that excuses pretty much everything that you can't see the forest for the trees (just like your earlier statement meaning precisely the opposite of what you thought you were saying). The capacity for rappers and so on (Note: NOT ALL African Americans, many of whom object to the usage) to appropriate and use the N word defused (among themselves) of its racism does not evacuate the word of its racism when used by white people. Your claim that it does is just bull$#!t. Besides, the appropriation of the word ONLY HAS FORCE AND MEANING because of its continuing racist potential in the mouths of others. The meaning of words changes over time, but mostly it multiplies and uses don't just disappear, especially with the rapidity that you seem to think happens.

As for the supposed 'dark time in human history' there are more than enough ridiculous and problematic assumptions in that to keep me busy for an afternoon but I'm not going to bother because you'll just twist anything else around into some other bizarre statement.

I'm perfectly happy living in the present because I understand a few things about how we got to be where we are. I have no idea of what the future looks like but I'm really impressed that you're already living there. Unfortunately I suspect, from your distorted version of things, it's probably not much more than another fool's paradise.

Stopped reading at comment 9....

You lot are an utter disgrace who clearly have no concept of what racism is and are proof of what is wrong with this country.

Go out in the world, meet some people of another race and educate yourselfs, find out the true relation to the word ape and black people...

I don't blame you all for the subtle racism, the fact is, white people will never really get it as they have been white their whole life.

My beloved Australia, maintaining their name around the word as one of the most racist places on earth....
"oh it's just a joke", "I wouldn't care if someone called me an ape", "he does look a bit like an ape, thats not racist", "you pay your money you can say what you like".... Total garbage.

  On 28/05/2013 at 03:21, rpfc said:

Look, the girl probably didn't know what the connotation of 'ape' is. But it is an epithet and her ignorance shouldn't save her.

No person has to put up with racism, even if it is perceived, the person should know why what they said was so hurtful.

Goodes handled it all well and so did Eddie.

We move on.

  On 28/05/2013 at 03:30, soxy@live.com.au said:

I used to umpire Junior Football and I was called an ape more than once.. If the girl had called Goodes a "Black ape" then some sort of action may have been justified but the kid was subjected to questioning, removal from the game and much more apparent abuse on social media. She probably now needs more "counselling and assistance from child welfare personnel than Adam does and it will possibly have a much worse effect on her life. I think it would take more than being called an ape to prompt Adam to leave the field if an opposing player used the term.. if not , then perhaps he has given opposing teams a very simple plan to get him to leave the ground, considering how damaging he can be on the field ?? I will NEVER condone racism in any form but in this particular instance I ask "did that 13 year old Collingwood supporter make her comment with racism in mind?" Not so sure ..

  On 28/05/2013 at 03:44, Chook said:

Just FYI, humans belong to the Great Ape family.

  On 28/05/2013 at 03:48, Spirit of said:

Goodes just needs to lose the beard, and the ape remarks will stop. Nothing to do with racism - never hear Rioli, Jetta etc referred to as apes - it's that beard of his.

I have it on very good authority that the girl allegedly used words towards Goodes other than the word "Ape" on Friday evening guys. It would appear Goodes has gone the extra mile here in order to protect this minor. This guy is a true champion, both on and off the field. I only wish we had him at our club and he deserves to be commended for how he's handled this episode.

  On 28/05/2013 at 04:25, daisycutter said:

Bobby "The Chimp" Skilton and the "Three Wise Monkeys" on World of Sport (Dyer, Davis, Richards)

An unfortunate choice of words from an ignorant 13 year old. Unintentional racism? Probably.

Hardly deserved the front page of the Sun complete with minor's picture and full name

Just as what was allegedly said (but reported otherwise) was completely unacceptable, so is The Sun's treatment of her here.

A minor in this situation needs education and good guidance/counselling. Not shaming, naming and a front page spread. Disgraceful act by this paper and its editors.

Eddie really had a bad day.

David Brent would be proud of that one .

Good one Eddie-you're officially the biggest [censored] in Melbourne .

leave the comedy to the funny guys at MMM-i.e the Janitor.

  On 29/05/2013 at 08:03, Rusty Nails said:

I have it on very good authority that the girl allegedly used words towards Goodes other than the word "Ape" on Friday evening guys. It would appear Goodes has gone the extra mile here in order to protect this minor. This guy is a true champion, both on and off the field. I only wish we had him at our club and he deserves to be commended for how he's handled this episode. Just as what was allegedly said (but reported otherwise) was completely unacceptable, so is The Sun's treatment of her here. A minor in this situation needs education and good guidance/counselling. Not shaming, naming and a front page spread. Disgraceful act by this paper and its editors.

Hyping and personifying scandal and 'shame' is the Herald Sun's raison d'être, so expecting any degree of sensitivity to the plight of the girl and her 'guilt' is beyond hopeful.

Dr. John Dee, your erudite explanations of racism and it's existence within the superficially reasonable arguments for rejecting political correctness and suggesting people be more thick-skinned were enjoyable reading.

Sadly, the girl has been too readily identified, and will have a struggle to overcome the consequences of this. What I have thought is terrific in the way this episode has hit the public domain though, is that it seeks a better standard of respect and tolerance firstly at sporting events, and secondly in Australian society generally. Considering the degree to which sport is embedded in Australian culture, any chance to use it as a means to improve racial respect should be held high. Whilst the crowds at Australian football are remarkably harmonious and good-spirited in the context of other sports worldwide, it can ALWAYS be better, and Adam Goodes has just shown us how we can and should aspire to this.

What a [censored] - can we please delete this thread now!

He only digs the hole deeper by trying to defend it - He is now going to be investigated by the AFL.

Radio Comments:

www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/afl/eddie-mcguire-apologises-to-adam-goodes-over-king-kong-remark/story-fnca0u4y-1226652825692

  On 29/05/2013 at 07:35, Demons 32 said:

Stopped reading at comment 9....

You lot are an utter disgrace who clearly have no concept of what racism is and are proof of what is wrong with this country.

Go out in the world, meet some people of another race and educate yourselfs, find out the true relation to the word ape and black people...

I don't blame you all for the subtle racism, the fact is, white people will never really get it as they have been white their whole life.

My beloved Australia, maintaining their name around the word as one of the most racist places on earth....

"oh it's just a joke", "I wouldn't care if someone called me an ape", "he does look a bit like an ape, thats not racist", "you pay your money you can say what you like".... Total garbage.

Post of the year.

Ape.

You're most of the way through a fierce competitive game of football, setting credentials and building form for a defense of a premiership. You've been probably the best player on the ground and decisive in a number of attacks that have pushed the margin out to a lead you are confident the team can hold. Setting yourself to push hard through the remainder of the game...

A thirteen year old girl says something which makes pretty clear that in her mind everything you are can be reduced to a derogatory comment about your race. Just like all through your childhood. and just like all through the childhood of every kid in your extended family, and the families of a whole community that means a great deal to you.

Goodes described it as sad and particularly noted that the girl had grown up 'in an environment where that is ok'. Which means it was an environment where, simply put, it was ok to be racist. To other children.

Now Eddie has come out with his bizarre gaffe which pretty much gives every fringe-racist permission to write the whole thing off as a 'whinging bleeding-heart politcally correct overreaction'.

ah well, maybe progress will be made next Indigenous round.

  On 28/05/2013 at 09:23, Dr John Dee said:

I was referring to Collins' familiarity with the long history of oppression in Ireland as well as his own experience of it.

And if you're suggesting in the reference to a particular group that Aborigines are somehow getting special treatment in having Goodes' objections to racist language aired, then I think you're probably further from the spirit of Michael Collins than you first appeared.

Well you're right about the first bit - a point well made. I see Adam Goodes apparently didn't realise the age of the girl concerned, which is fair enough given the speed with which everything happened. And he was indeed most understanding in his later remarks.

For the second part, no, I wasn't suggesting that at all.

I admit my limited understanding of this subject, and I have found your advice instructive, if somewhat harsh. I will study the matter further, but it was decent of you to go to so much trouble over your explanations.

  Quote

This country has a long long way to go.

Tell me about it, casual racism still alive and well I see...

  On 28/05/2013 at 04:17, Soidee said:

The fact that people are unsure what Ape means in this context says our society needs more education.

However, many just come up with excuses as to the meaning of Ape in this context to hide or deny their own racist attitudes.

This country has a long long way to go.

Until we admit Australia has a racist underbelly, things will not improve.

Youre an idiot.

I don't see how calling someone an ape is racist, people call me a monkey all the time...

  On 29/05/2013 at 10:39, DeeInWa said:

Are aboriginal people calling me a "white cun.t" racist? Because i don't provide them with cigarette's? (I don't smoke)

I invite you all to visit rural country WA and grow up as a white male.

Start smoking then you selfish bastard.

  On 29/05/2013 at 10:39, DeeInWa said:

Are aboriginal people calling me a "white cun.t" racist? Because i don't provide them with cigarette's? (I don't smoke)

I invite you all to visit rural country WA and grow up as a white male.

So?

It's not a competition you know

but if you feel that gives you a green light to be racist in response you'd be sadly mistaken (or ignorant)

  On 29/05/2013 at 10:37, DeeInWa said:

Youre an [censored].

I went to high school in Kalgoorlie, spent time at the missions and got to learn about aboriginal culture. Did not learn it in the classroom just had parents who instilled a sense of what it takes to be a good citizen of the world. It's not rocket science!

Ed was tired from last night

http://www.mgs.vic.edu.au/news/2013_news_stories/indigenous_dinner_reminder_0513.php

and made a faux pas

  On 29/05/2013 at 12:18, DeeInWa said:

image.jpg

Apart from unnecessary use of an expletive, just what is your point?