Player Spin

[Giles 181]

It is genuinely insulting for you to fail to give any of the the players any respect, and not even acknowledge that they may be being truthful. I find it absolutely disgusting that many on here continue just abuse, abuse and abuse, without giving the players any respect as people. It is the same reason I will NEVER abuse our own players or opposition players, even if I have a dislike for them.

For people to come out and openly suggest that first Garland, then Dawes are just flat out misrepresenting things just to toe the "club line" gives them no respect as people. And in my opinion, those who are suggesting such things, should also be given no respect. Paying a membership, and supporting a club does not given anyone a right to abuse and disrespect a person expressing their opinion.

All members, and even the players are hurting because of the performances. There may be some players hurting less than others, but to suggest that players aren't hurting again is disrespectful to the playing group as people.

Those who keep suggesting that the players are just spinning c*$p and just making excuses, I ask this question...if they didn't believe in what they were saying why would would they make such statements?? Again, I'm guessing the responses would be along the lines of....to protect their own skins, etc etc etc But what would compel someone to come out and mislead the membership when they don't have to. They could sit back and say nothing. To me the players are coming out and standing up for what is happening at the club because they believe in it. I have found that people are more likely to stand up and defend something when they believe in it, as opposed to when they don't.

Why are so many on here so quick to acknowledge the way the club has stuffed up in the past, yet not patient enough for all of that poor work to be fixed. I believe this club has been in a poor state for over a decade, and I think it is unrealistic, bordering on lunacy to believe that it can be turned around in 18 months. Many have suggested that a coach like Paul Roos could fix things, to which I have suggested that Sydney were in a similar position to us in the early 90's when Barassi was brought in to fix things, then Eade took over, and led the club for 7 years (including finals appearances) before Roos took over. Sydney took about 4-5 years to dig themselves out of where they were in the early 90's and return to playing finals football. Why should we expect any different? Look at the history of other clubs who have been in similar positions to where we are at. I think you will struggle to find examples of where a club has returned to being competitive and successful within 18 months.

But back to my main point. It is simply disgusting for so many on here to simply abuse and disrespect the players and those in the club that are genuinely trying to move this club to where it needs to be. People want the club to show integrity......so how do they want that to be represented?

To me, integrity means being consistent in your words and actions, yet people are getting sick of hearing the same old message of "it's going to take time, but we're on the right path". Since Neeld took over, I have seen more consistent messages coming out of the club regarding where it is at then I have for any time in the last decade. The actions or results have not been there and there has been little evidence that the players are performing at the level intended or expected, but does that mean that the players lack integrity, or that the club lacks integrity?? The club has always said it is going to take time. It is taking time. They have clearly explained that their are standards the players are expected to meet. The players may not be consistently meeting those standards at the moment, but how many 20 - 25 year olds are always consistent in their behaviours. There are reasons that those clubs near the top of the ladder are where they are, they have a more mature and experienced group of players.

Some people are being blinded by anger, and frustration when looking at the club. Take a step back, take a rational look at the playing list (which isn't great at the moment), and think, when compared to other lists, where should this club be sitting on the ladder?.

Some food for thought is an article from today's Age comparing the performance of the bulldogs and us......

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/perceptions-punish-demons-but-dogs-are-none-too-rosy-20130514-2jklt.html

We are in no better state than the bulldogs, GWS and GC in terms of development (though we are arguably behind GC now). This club is rebuilding, is starting afresh, and we have some good young talent. We just need to develop them properly. So rather than disrespecting the players, and those in the club that are trying to bring this club success, how about we actually respect them as people, and for once try and believe the players when the come out and publicly state their views. To me, the most recent comments from Garland and Dawes have been some of the most compelling evidence that the bulk of the players are behind Neeld and Co. Maybe we should be giving the benefit of the doubt and start trusting the comments of the players, no matter how frustrating things are at the moment.

I think the difference is pm24 that although Sydney was really bad in those times, each new coach that came in made on field improvements. Not massive wins, not finals, but noticeable improvements. The corner was in sight. Since Neeld’s reign of terror began, we've become less competitive than ever and we’re actually getting worse as each week goes by. How bad can it get before we turn 'a' corner? I know there are times when one must take a step backward to move forward, but judging by the 30 steps backwards (2012-13) we've taken and what appears to be our future trajectory, I don’t think it’s unfair for members and supporters to be frustrated and having a lack of respect for the words currently coming out of the club. The party line started with 'that's where we're at', became 'training doesn't match on field performance' and now, 'we just need to demonstrate an effort’. What will we hear on Sunday night? 'We just need to show some interest' I do agree with you that being disrespectful of players is not cool, but I’m not sure Harrisonrules showed any disrepect to the MFC players in his/her post. There's no shame in being one team, having a single message and towing a party line, but only if that line has substance and lasts a little longer than a week.

Let's stay on the 'reality bus', we've won 4 quarters out of a possible 28 this season. 3 of those were against expansion franchises. It's hardly a respectable result.

Notwithstanding any of the above, actions speak louder than words.

[Scoop Junior 3,435]

Since Neeld took over, I have seen more consistent messages coming out of the club regarding where it is at then I have for any time in the last decade.

Really?

Bailey consistently said from day one that we were at rock bottom and starting a rebuild and developing our younger players. Yes we made mistakes but the message from Bailey was clear and consistent.

Some of Neeld's favourite comments at the moment like 'rebuilding the rebuild' and 'we are in the basement', I never heard those mentioned last year. In fact during the pre-season we heard how we would improve significantly and surprise a few teams.

To me, the most recent comments from Garland and Dawes have been some of the most compelling evidence that the bulk of the players are behind Neeld and Co. Maybe we should be giving the benefit of the doubt and start trusting the comments of the players, no matter how frustrating things are at the moment.

So you base your opinion on what the players say in public as opposed to their performance on game day? Actions speak louder than words and our actions on game day this year seem pretty compelling to me. I don't blame the players for saying this as they have no choice, but you'd be a fool to rate public utterances over on field performance.

[pm24 451]

I completely agree that actions speak louder than words, and have also acknowledge that the performance and effort of the players in some games this year has been unacceptable.

However, one thing that hurt us on the weekend was the players we also had out. Now this should be used as an excuse for effort, but for a club that lacks leadership to have the following players out does hurt us on field: Mitch Clark, Grimes, Trengove, Jamar. Then the talent of Watts and the defensive ability of Tom McDonald (disposal is poor, but defensive abilities are strong). Without those players on the field we struggle for talent and leadership. We do not have enough depth on our list to cover the absence of 6 important players even against a team like the Gold Coast.

No that does not excuse the lack of effort, but it is still relevant to the performance of the team.

I believe there is nothing wrong with being upset and angry with the state of the club, I just disagree with the current climate on here which flat out seems to be suggesting the players are liers and have no credibility. It hasn't been said directly, but when threads are started following statements from players Dawes and Garland labelling those statements as "spin" just because the players have come out and expressed some thoughts and shown support for the coach, suggests a belief that the players are lieing.

As members we have a right to be frustrated with the state of affairs of the club, not only because we pay memberships and give up our money to support the club, but also because of how long things have been in a state of disrepair, but I do not believe that should extend to us as members and supports then going out and attacking and disrespecting players because they say something we disagree with, let alone labelling that content spin.

[angrydee 842]

Interesting that when asked today why his club shouldn't cop the scrutiny that we are copping, McCartney basically said that was because eveeryone could see that his players were having a real go with 100% effort.

Damning

[old dee 23,782]

Interesting that when asked today why his club shouldn't cop the scrutiny that we are copping, McCartney basically said that was because eveeryone could see that his players were having a real go with 100% effort.

Damning

Pretty much covers it

[Demon trucker 1,800]

i have an idea for all you angry ants, just relax , take a pill and lay down, things will change, they always do when a team is winning everything the club is doing is good, when its is losing everything they do is bad, dont worry essendon is going to go bad every soon.

[pm24 451]

So you base your opinion on what the players say in public as opposed to their performance on game day? Actions speak louder than words and our actions on game day this year seem pretty compelling to me. I don't blame the players for saying this as they have no choice, but you'd be a fool to rate public utterances over on field performance.

Actually I am basing it on more than just what the players say, and how they perform on game day. I am considering why the players would come out and say the things they have said, and why so many of the players would come out and say the same things. I am going beyond game day, and beyond the statements and asking why they would make those statements in media forums if they did not actually believe them and why they would be so adament in what they are saying.

I also ask myself why respected guys like Neil Craig and Dave Misson would be sticking around if the club was in such a shambles in respect to players being on board etc. There are too many inconsistencies in the arguments that suggest that the players are not on board, or those arguments are based on the consideration of just one or two factors.

I ask myself why players newly recruited from successful clubs would make statements standing up for the club. Dawes doesn't need to come out and say the things he has. Dawes didn't need to choose us in the first place.

Clark wouldn't be posting comments calling for support and supporting the message of Neeld and others if he didn't believe it.

I actually just think people need to stop jumping to conclusions and actually think things through a bit more. Consider all the factors, not just one or two.

[demon3165 2,711]

same as above

been saying it on this site although not as well written as yourself

most posters think a sacking will be the answer

i believe supporting the FD is the answer

So have I and like you could not have written it any better, once Jackson sorts out who does what and where and why and they all understand what their role and responsibility is then we as a club will only get better at what we do.

[bing181 9,196]

not one mention of winning

I have gone through numerous comments by players, MN, line coaches. Hundreds of words.

Not once do the words win or winning appear.

OD, perhaps go through them again then. Garland clearly speaks about the preparation for the week being about "this is what we need to do to beat these guys".

Royal also spoke about winning in the team selection chat last week.

On the other hand, if you had some time to kill, why not go through comments, press conferences etc. from other coaches etc. from other clubs in the lead-ups to games, and see how many times those coaches speak about "winning". You know as well as I do how often we hear variations on "they have some good players and we know they're going to take it up to us", regardless of how one-sided a match looks on paper.

We're all hurting OD.

[Scoop Junior 3,435]

I am considering why the players would come out and say the things they have said, and why so many of the players would come out and say the same things. I am going beyond game day, and beyond the statements and asking why they would make those statements in media forums if they did not actually believe them and why they would be so adament in what they are saying.

Tom Scully was pretty adamant that he loved the MFC and wanted to be a one club player early in 2011.

I for one am not blaming the players for what they are saying. I don't believe they have any choice but to be supportive of the coaching regime in the public. I'm not saying they are lying or that deep down they are against Neeld. What I am saying is just to pay very little attention to what is said in the public as no player is ever going to say anything bad about the coach in the public.

IMO their performance on the field is the best and most accurate indication.

[P-man 13,366]

Interesting that when asked today why his club shouldn't cop the scrutiny that we are copping, McCartney basically said that was because eveeryone could see that his players were having a real go with 100% effort.

Damning

The truth hurts.

[P-man 13,366]

That, and the Dogs are playing much, much better footy than us.

[45HG 1,539]

The Dogs' "form" is a bit of a misnomer IMO.

Griffin, Cross, Boyd and Cooney have been their best performed players this year.

That's four top class midfielders with over 750 games experience between them.

Put four quality, experienced mids into our side and we'd look better immediately.

It also shouldn't be forgotten that they, also, have only one win, their average losing margin is over 48 and they've had terrible efforts against the Crows, West Coast, Richmond - a Melbourneesque (if we could get close enough) fadeout against the Roos and a pathetic start against Freo which cost them any shot.

I'm not saying this to compare form to ours. Our form is unacceptable. The Bulldogs' form is also unacceptable I'd have thought.

[DemonOX 8,791]

Spin is what the Dees have been doing for the past 6 seasons! But that's all we have been doin.

Edited May 15, 2013 by DemonOX

[old dee 23,782]

OD, perhaps go through them again then. Garland clearly speaks about the preparation for the week being about "this is what we need to do to beat these guys".

Royal also spoke about winning in the team selection chat last week.

On the other hand, if you had some time to kill, why not go through comments, press conferences etc. from other coaches etc. from other clubs in the lead-ups to games, and see how many times those coaches speak about "winning". You know as well as I do how often we hear variations on "they have some good players and we know they're going to take it up to us", regardless of how one-sided a match looks on paper.

We're all hurting OD.

I think on that we can all agree.

To this minute I have little idea if Neeld is a good coach or not.

IMO we have what maybe the worst list in 52 years.

I thought for all of 2012 that the vast majority of the players were playing to their best.

That best is unfortunately not AFL standard.

the first seven games of 2013 have confirmed that to me.

This big group of not good enoughs are now so shell shocked that they are over whelmed mentally.

They no longer have any idea what to do when they run out to play.

Witness the from the first bounce last Sunday.

I have no idea how you find six to ten good seasoned over 25 years old players

But IMO that is what we need.

Now is Neeld any good?

I am not sure but I am beginning to lose faith

[P-man 13,366]

The Dogs' "form" is a bit of a misnomer IMO.

Griffin, Cross, Boyd and Cooney have been their best performed players this year.

That's four top class midfielders with over 750 games experience between them.

Put four quality, experienced mids into our side and we'd look better immediately.

It also shouldn't be forgotten that they, also, have only one win, their average losing margin is over 48 and they've had terrible efforts against the Crows, West Coast, Richmond - a Melbourneesque (if we could get close enough) fadeout against the Roos and a pathetic start against Freo which cost them any shot.

I'm not saying this to compare form to ours. Our form is unacceptable. The Bulldogs' form is also unacceptable I'd have thought.

Agree in part, but I've watched a fair bit of the Dogs and if we played them this week, they'd monster us. Yes they faded away against the Roos in the last but they went toe to toe with them for three quarters, and North are a top 8 side this year.

Whilst they do have a few of those quality senior players that we lack, there is then a huge gap in terms of ages and games experience down to their next level of talent, which is the Libba and Wallis brigade. The reliance on these guys means they may struggle to see out four quarters against quality opposition, but one thing you get from them is 100% endeavour. They play with self belief. I'd kill to see that again in our guys. Watching them now is gut wrenching.

[Harrisonrules 273]

It is genuinely insulting for you to fail to give any of the the players any respect, and not even acknowledge that they may be being truthful. I find it absolutely disgusting that many on here continue just abuse, abuse and abuse, without giving the players any respect as people. It is the same reason I will NEVER abuse our own players or opposition players, even if I have a dislike for them.

For people to come out and openly suggest that first Garland, then Dawes are just flat out misrepresenting things just to toe the "club line" gives them no respect as people. And in my opinion, those who are suggesting such things, should also be given no respect. Paying a membership, and supporting a club does not given anyone a right to abuse and disrespect a person expressing their opinion.

All members, and even the players are hurting because of the performances. There may be some players hurting less than others, but to suggest that players aren't hurting again is disrespectful to the playing group as people.

Those who keep suggesting that the players are just spinning c*$p and just making excuses, I ask this question...if they didn't believe in what they were saying why would would they make such statements?? Again, I'm guessing the responses would be along the lines of....to protect their own skins, etc etc etc But what would compel someone to come out and mislead the membership when they don't have to. They could sit back and say nothing. To me the players are coming out and standing up for what is happening at the club because they believe in it. I have found that people are more likely to stand up and defend something when they believe in it, as opposed to when they don't.

Why are so many on here so quick to acknowledge the way the club has stuffed up in the past, yet not patient enough for all of that poor work to be fixed. I believe this club has been in a poor state for over a decade, and I think it is unrealistic, bordering on lunacy to believe that it can be turned around in 18 months. Many have suggested that a coach like Paul Roos could fix things, to which I have suggested that Sydney were in a similar position to us in the early 90's when Barassi was brought in to fix things, then Eade took over, and led the club for 7 years (including finals appearances) before Roos took over. Sydney took about 4-5 years to dig themselves out of where they were in the early 90's and return to playing finals football. Why should we expect any different? Look at the history of other clubs who have been in similar positions to where we are at. I think you will struggle to find examples of where a club has returned to being competitive and successful within 18 months.

But back to my main point. It is simply disgusting for so many on here to simply abuse and disrespect the players and those in the club that are genuinely trying to move this club to where it needs to be. People want the club to show integrity......so how do they want that to be represented?

To me, integrity means being consistent in your words and actions, yet people are getting sick of hearing the same old message of "it's going to take time, but we're on the right path". Since Neeld took over, I have seen more consistent messages coming out of the club regarding where it is at then I have for any time in the last decade. The actions or results have not been there and there has been little evidence that the players are performing at the level intended or expected, but does that mean that the players lack integrity, or that the club lacks integrity?? The club has always said it is going to take time. It is taking time. They have clearly explained that their are standards the players are expected to meet. The players may not be consistently meeting those standards at the moment, but how many 20 - 25 year olds are always consistent in their behaviours. There are reasons that those clubs near the top of the ladder are where they are, they have a more mature and experienced group of players.

Some people are being blinded by anger, and frustration when looking at the club. Take a step back, take a rational look at the playing list (which isn't great at the moment), and think, when compared to other lists, where should this club be sitting on the ladder?.

Some food for thought is an article from today's Age comparing the performance of the bulldogs and us......

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/perceptions-punish-demons-but-dogs-are-none-too-rosy-20130514-2jklt.html

We are in no better state than the bulldogs, GWS and GC in terms of development (though we are arguably behind GC now). This club is rebuilding, is starting afresh, and we have some good young talent. We just need to develop them properly. So rather than disrespecting the players, and those in the club that are trying to bring this club success, how about we actually respect them as people, and for once try and believe the players when the come out and publicly state their views. To me, the most recent comments from Garland and Dawes have been some of the most compelling evidence that the bulk of the players are behind Neeld and Co. Maybe we should be giving the benefit of the doubt and start trusting the comments of the players, no matter how frustrating things are at the moment.

By saying that we have watched some of the most despicable performances by a Melbourne team I can remember, was not showing disrespect to the players. Who is going to argue. Something is wrong and we are all giving opinions trying to pin point the problem. Something is wrong because they are not all VFL players. The players I listed are the better ones. I have never criticised the effort any demon player has put in. I have criticised team selection at times.

But once a player comes off the field and talks to the media, goes on the website, then he is talking to me, and if he wants respect on my side of the fence then join the honest discussion of the supporter group. We are starting to get spin, which many people are reporting they are seeing through.

[michael collins 49]

PM24 has produced a couple of insightful paragraphs here, and the depth of other posters passion for the MFC comes through loud and clear. I admit I don't have the same knowledge of the Club and the player careers and performances, but I would like to add that the Club is bigger than the Board and the players, and that the members and supporters are an important part of it.

The Club has told the members nothing, other than the same platitudes which are wheeled out for media conferences. I accept that we have to keep MN for financial reasons, but the jury is still out on his rebuild, because we just don't know enough.

How long is the rebuild supposed to take? (because players have a limited career) What are the signs of progress in the rebuild? When can we expect to field a competitive team? The pain would be so much more bearable if we were given some information. Let Peter Jackson or someone with a little credibility log in to Demonland each week, pick some of the questions and provide answers. We don't need secret or personal information, just answers to some basic questions like "Do the players have access to a sports psychologist?" "Do we really have a game plan?" "How long do we expect the club to be rebuilding?"

[pm24 451]

Fair questions to ask Michael. I don't really have the answers, but a look at other clubs and you can identify that it's not a quick process. Geelong, which easily had a better list at the time of their "rebuild" than we do, had a five year lean period before starting to play finals football again (1998-2003). This is the period where they picked up the core of their premiership team.

The Hawks took three years (2004-2006) to rebuild, but again they had a stronger core of experienced players than we currently have. However, I think many have said that the rise of Hawthorn was more the exception to the rule, rather than the rule.

As already identified, Sydney took quite a long time to recover in the 1990's. Barassi took over from 93' to 95' and they finally started to have some success again in 1996 when they finished on top of the ladder. However, prior to Barassi taking over they were a basket case from about 1988. So all in all it took about 7 years for them to recover.

In short, every case is different, but I reckon it takes at least 3-4 years to rebuild a club to competitiveness. That is only based on what I've been able to find regarding some clubs who have had to go through that process.

[praha 11,236]

The Dogs' "form" is a bit of a misnomer IMO.

Griffin, Cross, Boyd and Cooney have been their best performed players this year.

That's four top class midfielders with over 750 games experience between them.

Put four quality, experienced mids into our side and we'd look better immediately.

It also shouldn't be forgotten that they, also, have only one win, their average losing margin is over 48 and they've had terrible efforts against the Crows, West Coast, Richmond - a Melbourneesque (if we could get close enough) fadeout against the Roos and a pathetic start against Freo which cost them any shot.

I'm not saying this to compare form to ours. Our form is unacceptable. The Bulldogs' form is also unacceptable I'd have thought.

Honestly, I think we'd be a top-8 side if we had just two of those mids in our team.

[pm24 451]

I'm not sure I agree we'd be top 8, but multiple times over the past couple of weeks, I can't help but wonder where the club would be if the culture wasn't such a mess for so many years and we'd been able to keep the following players (who are currently active): Scott Thompson, Brock McLean, Darren Jolly, and Jared Rivers

I can only imagine how much more damaging our team would be if we had Thompson, McLean and Jones in the middle with a Jolly and Jamar ruck tandem.

[pm24 451]

I'm just wondering if people are still thinking that the boys are just providing "spin" in their media comments given both Dawes and Frawley have now come out and said something like, the effort was better, but it still wasn't enough to WIN, and that means it wasn't good enough. Dawes even bluntly said it should be at AFL level which almost suggested that even the effort provided was still not quite good enough.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,693]

Agreed. When Bailey's had a go at a rebuild it was clear he was rebuilding but you could see where he was headed, you could see the big picture. The team played with flair and youthful confidence which i havent seen since he was sacked. Yes his game plan was not perfect and his team were inconsistant. Perhaps the reality was that his side was too young to win every week and Neeld is pointing out to us now.

Neeld says we are rebuilding again, but what are we building towards? What is the big picture? The Hardest team to play against wouldnt have rolled over in the first couple of minutes against the gold coast?! When he is asked about what he wants his game style to look like he hangs his hat on guys that are still high on the opertunity to play AFL footy like Viney, M Jones & Terlich. Neeld doesnt have Jurrah and Wonnamirri running around the attacking 50, but he has Clark and Dawes. The results he is presiding over are a disgrace and its not the scoreboard that is the most worrying part, its the way they are playing - passionless, emotionless, & no flair or confidence - rubbish

Actually, couldn't disagree more. I couldn't see anything in the Bailey years that looked like a plan whereas Neeld has shown a much more professional approach. While the Bailey years were more successful to date on field, I still think he was putting in some pretty decor while the foundations were rotting. Neeld has started with the structure and (if he gets the chance) should pretty it up once the foundations are firm.

[rpfc 28,267]

I'm just wondering if people are still thinking that the boys are just providing "spin" in their media comments given both Dawes and Frawley have now come out and said something like, the effort was better, but it still wasn't enough to WIN, and that means it wasn't good enough. Dawes even bluntly said it should be at AFL level which almost suggested that even the effort provided was still not quite good enough.

The ridiculousness of this thread is not that the players 'spin' with what they say.

The ridiculousness comes from the desire to see anything other than 'spin.'

The players should never be expected to have their day-to-day feelings on the coach, club, and each other in the public sphere without a filter.

It's the one thing that they have done consistently this season - they have outwardly admonished themselves and backed the coach and the club.

You don't want it any other way and when we change coaches they will effectively say "the king is dead, long live the king" - they will move on to the next coach to outwardly support.

You don't want it any other way.

And those looking for hidden messages from players as to their true feelings on club direction - whether in support or lack thereof - you look foolish and you are being counter productive.

I can see there are issues because of what we have thrown up (so to speak) this season.

There is no spinning that.

Edited May 20, 2013 by rpfc