Sorry didn't realise there were supporters who just went along to pick out the mistakes and analyse, as I have said before, and this includes BH, if you think the team and the players that are in it are crap why support? latent masochism, the constant carping is tiresome......sorry BH one of the plebs standing up to you again, know you don't like it

And I've stated before to you, if you don't like the interesting points of criticism and faults of our players during games, either stop reading it or don't comment to antagonise.

If you want a critical free thread discussing players, where everything is nice and rosy, create one. Simple.

Its just like Grade One. Show the apptitute and dedication therefore you pass and go through to the next grade. Doesnt matter that you cant read, write or are not toilet trained.

I'm sorry?

You are seriously comparing Jordie's inability to hit targets to a 6 year old who is illiterate?

Unlike school, demonsterative, we can't 'hold kids back' - we have to put 22 kids on the park every week.

And to take your unfortuate metaphor to its logical end - if we took all the 'illiterates' out of the team - we would forfeit every week.

No-one said it was for the faint of heart, but it's the same for all 18 clubs. Our club is regularly bottom 4 for a reason. One day it may dawn on you that we've had far too many "not quite rights".

Maybe not.

You are being rather simplistic blaming the players solely for the predicament that the Club found itself in just before Jim Stynes took over, the Club had some great players that are revered on this board during the period the Club was allowed to stagnate

The biggest problem with Jordy opposed to other players is that he cannot go on the offense.

Big rule of thumb is that when opponent has the ball, you tag, chase and tackle. - Jordie gets a tick here

Other half is that when we have the ball that you run, create space, get free, do sharp kicks and push the ball forward - Jordie doesn't get a tick here.

He is only playing half a game at the moment, we need players who can play both ways in our midfield otherwise we are always going to be a man down when we go on the attack/

You are being rather simplistic blaming the players solely for the predicament that the Club found itself in just before Jim Stynes took over, the Club had some great players that are revered on this board during the period the Club was allowed to stagnate

This is where I think you may get lots of differing opinions - our real problem is that we have had far too few "greats". We have had plenty of big sky rockets that flew high into the air gave us moments of brilliance and fizzled just as quickly and we have plenty of honest servants who given their all but have a look at, for example, Hawthorn over the past 30 - 40 years and I can count a couple of dozen greats and we have had one only that could hold their head in their company.

But I also agree with you that this is only part of the problem and every part of the club comes up short over the years.

The biggest problem with Jordy opposed to other players is that he cannot go on the offense.

Big rule of thumb is that when opponent has the ball, you tag, chase and tackle. - Jordie gets a tick here

Other half is that when we have the ball that you run, create space, get free, do sharp kicks and push the ball forward - Jordie doesn't get a tick here.

He is only playing half a game at the moment, we need players who can play both ways in our midfield otherwise we are always going to be a man down when we go on the attack/

I think I agree

but also add that some of that creating space is by bullocking and making a space or shepherding as it used to be called to allow the player with the ball a little more time to dispose of accurately. The old second effort.

Perhaps Jeordies disposal is what it is coz he doesnt always have that space and time created by someone else.

And his tackling does make opponents dispose of more quickly than they like so it can be an offensive weapon.

I have said before we dont need a team of Jonathan Browns and we dont want a team of Jeordies but his attributes can be a valuable part of the team operations.

The biggest problem with Jordy opposed to other players is that he cannot go on the offense.

Big rule of thumb is that when opponent has the ball, you tag, chase and tackle. - Jordie gets a tick here

Other half is that when we have the ball that you run, create space, get free, do sharp kicks and push the ball forward - Jordie doesn't get a tick here.

He is only playing half a game at the moment, we need players who can play both ways in our midfield otherwise we are always going to be a man down when we go on the attack/

I think it was pointed out last year by some commentators that somewhat know their stuff that one of our problems is that we took Neeld too much at his word and had too many going about getting the contested footy. We had too many contesting the footy as opposed to good midfields who will back their one or two tough midfielders to get the footy and have others work themselves outside to receive or be there for a loose ball get. Our contested footy was too high overall when compared to our uncontested. That translates to too many chasing the contest and not enough backing your teammate in to get the ball and you presenting as the next easy target.

Jordie is a prime example of that.

You are being rather simplistic blaming the players solely for the predicament that the Club found itself in just before Jim Stynes took over, the Club had some great players that are revered on this board during the period the Club was allowed to stagnate

Few, if any, would have been "revered" by me.

Few, if any, would have been "revered" by me.

None around that time for me.

For me, Jordie cannot start in the centre square. He is too one dimensional.

He needs to learn to keep his feet and spend less time on his hands and knees. And thirdly needs to learn to dispose of the ball properly. His kicking in particular is no better than the average country footballer. He has to find a way to hurt the opposition when we have the pill.

I'm sorry?

You are seriously comparing Jordie's inability to hit targets to a 6 year old who is illiterate?

Unlike school, demonsterative, we can't 'hold kids back' - we have to put 22 kids on the park every week.

And to take your unfortuate metaphor to its logical end - if we took all the 'illiterates' out of the team - we would forfeit every week.

I'm a little confused about your choice of words rpfc. In was never comparing Jordie to a grade one illiterate student, you were right with the metaphor part though.

stmj, we have nothing but limited footballers.

Jordie is the most dedicated of the limited footballers.

I am just as flummoxed with your attitude as you are with mine - we are not in a position to just throw these mature age players or kids ahead of Jordie on absolutley no formline.

There are reasons he has won the Coaches Award three years running.

Sometimes, placing an importance on application, toughness, and attitude will outweigh deficiencies in skill and decision making.

We are not good enough to just waive away the qualities of Jordie McKenzie in favour of the next unknown quantity.

I am not saying we don't have to move past him, or that he doesn't have to improve, I am saying that if his qualities are replicated in other players because we place them in high regard then that will help our young players become what we require them to be.

Well clearly we disagree because I am telling you that I'd play other mids ahead of Jordie. I rate them higher and even if it takes them a while to get used to playing the game at the highest level, I don't mind.

As I said, we are going nowhere in a hurry. McKenzie is very limited as a footballer with not much scope for improvement in my eyes.

Matt Jones, Viney and hopefully Rodan will move past Jordie this year.

Bring him in to tag. that's it.

Jones, Grimes, Trengove, Viney, Sylvia, ???, ???, ???, ??? and ??? to play in the 1st choice 2013 midfield rotation before McKenzie (1 ruck, 6 set defenders, 5 set forwards, and 10 mids to rotate).

Think of an argument for 5 of the following to be ahead of the Leader Jordie McKenzie in 2013:

Matt Jones, Magner, Toumpas, Bail, Blease, Rodan, Tynan, Evans, Kent, Barry, Taggert, and Tapscott.

(Not to mention Trengove is injured, and Sylvia a space cadet.)

I don't think it is wise to make an arbitrary decision to hold McKenzie accountable for his mistakes without having that standard across the rest of the group.

It's moot really - he is in the Leadership Group and will play.

RPFC forget the leader title. Please. We have had to draft and trade in leaders at the MFC. That's how pathetic our leadership was.

Jordie is in the leadership because of his professional attitude toward everything he does which is one thing Neeld and Craig have drilled into this club since the day they started.

It is a completely unique situation and he wouldn't be in a leadership group at any other AFL club in my eyes because no club has had such a pathetic culture and lack of leadership for so long.

This argument has passed. All I was saying was I wouldn't have a problem dropping him after a couple of bad games to trial one of our new recruits in the same pos. Even if it was a H&A game.

Turns out he didn't play on the weekend and I sense he will get a gig in round 1 but if he doesn't improve his decision making and kicking, throw someone else in.

RPFC forget the leader title. Please. We have had to draft and trade in leaders at the MFC. That's how pathetic our leadership was.

Jordie is in the leadership because of his professional attitude toward everything he does which is one thing Neeld and Craig have drilled into this club since the day they started.

It is a completely unique situation and he wouldn't be in a leadership group at any other AFL club in my eyes because no club has had such a pathetic culture and lack of leadership for so long.

This argument has passed. All I was saying was I wouldn't have a problem dropping him after a couple of games of bad games to trial one of our new recruits in the same pos. Even if it was a H&A game.

Turns out he didn't play on the weekend and I sense he will get a gig in round 1 but if he doesn't improve his decision making and kicking, throw someone else in.

Fine, but again, we are a few games into the season and players are ready to be dropped and elevated:

I find it extremely difficult to name 9 to 10 midfielders without McKenzie among them.

And we all hope he improves - I hope they all improve, because right now we have a third world midfield and Jordie McKenzie is the least of our troubles and I don't want him to blamed for The Big Trouble that is our terrible midfield.

Name a finals team from last year that carried a core midfielder who couldn't kick the footy.

This isn't just based on last week. He's always been a liability in attack. We can't pretend it won't become a greater issue as we develop further.

I don't think Ling and Kirk were great kicks of the footy. Not finals players last year but recent enough.

I don't think Ling and Kirk were great kicks of the footy. Not finals players last year but recent enough.

Ling was OK and Kirk played to his limitations.

I've studied McKenzie at training and under no pressure his kicks are nearly always fine. But you put him in an AFL pressurised environment and many become diabolical.

Ling was OK and Kirk played to his limitations.

I've studied McKenzie at training and under no pressure his kicks are nearly always fine. But you put him in an AFL pressurised environment and many become diabolical.

Do you mean actual physical pressure or mental pressure? If the former, wouldn't the coaches get him to practice kicking as he is about to be tackled. If the latter, wheel in a psychologist.

Jordies real worth will only unfold when our midfield improves - I dont think he will ever be our number one go to midfielder but as your 3rd midfielder getting clearances he could prove his worth. He needs to be 1st in the chain which is his strength not last. He needs to be giving it off to a finisher.And what is required is instant spread the minute we get the ball - even if his next option is only half a metre clear he needs that option. Its a bit like criticising our kick outs from full back - the kicker is not the problem - it is the complete lack of movement and clear options that is the undoing of us.

Jordies kicking is not up to it but it is not too hard to imagine him progressing to sitting in a Carlton midfield setup with Judd and Murphy - getting the first clearance and handing it off to those two who make extraction look easy.

He actually reminds me of an early Cameron Ling (not just the hair) who was definitely behind your Abletts and Bartels but he came to the fore by becoming more damaging because of him getting some loose ball due to the concentration on the more credentialled midfielders. Lings disposal improved as Geelongs midfield did. It is amazing what a little less pressure and a few more options can do for your disposal.

And similar lack of movement on the forward line has for many years made our half backs and mids look (more) ordinary and has seen them caught with the ball time and time again waiting for someone to get off their butt and make a lead. Hopefully this is another area where Neeld will be intolerant of fools and of laziness.

I think it was pointed out last year by some commentators that somewhat know their stuff that one of our problems is that we took Neeld too much at his word and had too many going about getting the contested footy. We had too many contesting the footy as opposed to good midfields who will back their one or two tough midfielders to get the footy and have others work themselves outside to receive or be there for a loose ball get. Our contested footy was too high overall when compared to our uncontested. That translates to too many chasing the contest and not enough backing your teammate in to get the ball and you presenting as the next easy target.

Jordie is a prime example of that.

I guess having too many going for the hard ball is better (or less bad) than having too few: with the new 'hard nut' coach's arrival maybe more were scared not to get in and at it....certain recent departures excepted.

And similar lack of movement on the forward line has for many years made our half backs and mids look (more) ordinary and has seen them caught with the ball time and time again waiting for someone to get off their butt and make a lead. Hopefully this is another area where Neeld will be intolerant of fools and of laziness.

its actually all over the ground and makes for very slow ball movement and kicking to congestion or to flat footed players.

Ling was OK and Kirk played to his limitations.

I've studied McKenzie at training and under no pressure his kicks are nearly always fine. But you put him in an AFL pressurised environment and many become diabolical.

What does that tell you, hes a DUD.

its actually all over the ground and makes for very slow ball movement and kicking to congestion or to flat footed players.

Spot on mate. I've been noticing/complaining for years now that there's no moving without the ball. Our players have never seemed to catch on that you need to be getting into positions when you DON'T have possession yourself. They stand around and watch rather than creating opportunities. It's evidenced in how many ineffective disposals we have, but also by how little we run "give and go's" which good teams use to build a play and create space.

What does that tell you, hes a DUD.

He's in the leadership group and has won the coaches award 3 years in a row, what does that tell you? You're a dud.

What does that tell you, hes a DUD.

A dud?

Really?

He has things to work on but if McKenzie is a dud and shouldn't play I have got about 8 names that line up Rd 1.

Forfeit the season people. It's our only option.