investigators are obviously basing jack's possible contribution to the games in 2009, based on what they have probably seen in the last 1-2 years, in other words they dont have a clue about football and have not done their homework on his stats and other things that would have demonstrated his value to the team. Quite frankly I am surprised that they did not pull us up for PLAYING Morton in those games he played in, in 2009.

  On 13/01/2013 at 07:03, Franky_31 said:

Like everyone else, I know nothing about it. But the thunder is roaring and I expect rain. I just think there is something yet to be revealed. When that happens(if it does) I will still think its unfair to MFC, but fairness is not the issue. The one thing I would bet on, is that what is so far revealed is just overture.

I hope and suspect you're wrong Frankie because, while I don't know what rules govern AFL procedures of this type, if it were taking place in a court of law, then rules of discovery would mandate complete disclosure of all evidence in advance. ie. No evidence could be witheld till later as you suggested above.

  On 13/01/2013 at 07:03, Franky_31 said:

Like everyone else, I know nothing about it. But the thunder is roaring and I expect rain. I just think there is something yet to be revealed. When that happens(if it does) I will still think its unfair to MFC, but fairness is not the issue. The one thing I would bet on, is that what is so far revealed is just overture.

You claim to know nothing yet you post this.

I expect a confession or a written proof of collusion.

Where is the thunder which direction is the rain coming from? What an extraordinary thing to say, you know nothing, but you expect the worst; on what basis and with what information do you arrive at your conclusion?

If they are using Watts' lack of use and game time as evidence then they should give up right now. Honestly people have been critical of us playing him, he was so young and so skinny, a boy playing against men.

Is it just filler in the documents to make it seem like they've done a full investigation?

  On 13/01/2013 at 07:03, Franky_31 said:

Like everyone else, I know nothing about it. But the thunder is roaring and I expect rain. I just think there is something yet to be revealed. When that happens(if it does) I will still think its unfair to MFC, but fairness is not the issue. The one thing I would bet on, is that what is so far revealed is just overture.

Thunder of course does not necessarily herald rain: it can herald unwanted spot fires, which can get out of control and wreak widespread destruction.

If Watts (or any other player) not being selected is being looked at then every time a team has rested players (i.e. Fremantle in Tasmania) they should be investigated for tanking.

The cold, hard facts are we tanked. We can curse Caro, Brock McLean or any other person that has a crack at us, but why bother?

Such a decision, and it was a deliberate choice, has made us the laughing stock of the competition. It exposed us as a lazy club. One not willing to do the hard work (within the rules and spirit of the game)necessary to get back up the ladder. It has exposed our CEO as a two-time cheat. It has exposed the model that Schwab put forward in his Whiteboard Wednesday series as horribly flawed. It forgot that leaders such as McDonald, Bruce, Mclean (three best in our last finals win), even Miller and Johnstone could guide a new generation back up the ladder. We wanted an easier way, one without integrity, proper leadership and hard work.

Tanking gave the players an excuse. An excuse not to perform. And such a mindset becomes ingrained in your culture. Sportsmen shouldn't be given a reason not to perform at 100 percent. Is it any wonder that we curse that the likes of Sylvia have not come on as players?

  On 13/01/2013 at 10:13, dee-tox said:

The cold, hard facts are we tanked. We can curse Caro, Brock McLean or any other person that has a crack at us, but why bother?

Such a decision, and it was a deliberate choice, has made us the laughing stock of the competition. It exposed us as a lazy club. One not willing to do the hard work (within the rules and spirit of the game)necessary to get back up the ladder. It has exposed our CEO as a two-time cheat. It has exposed the model that Schwab put forward in his Whiteboard Wednesday series as horribly flawed. It forgot that leaders such as McDonald, Bruce, Mclean (three best in our last finals win), even Miller and Johnstone could guide a new generation back up the ladder. We wanted an easier way, one without integrity, proper leadership and hard work.

Tanking gave the players an excuse. An excuse not to perform. And such a mindset becomes ingrained in your culture. Sportsmen shouldn't be given a reason not to perform at 100 percent. Is it any wonder that we curse that the likes of Sylvia have not come on as players?

Well that was a rambling diatribe.

Our culture is shithouse, I would argue it was this way before 'we tanked' but that is just my personal belief.

As for being guilty - of what?

What particular actions was flagrant tanking and must be punished?

We didn't have winning as our number one priority in the second half of 2009 and we acted accordingly. Why would we place winning above extreme development and experimentation?

We did nothing against the rules and should not be punished.

Curse the culture if you want to, but don't tell me we tanked.

  On 13/01/2013 at 10:13, dee-tox said:

The cold, hard facts are we tanked. We can curse Caro, Brock McLean or any other person that has a crack at us, but why bother?

Such a decision, and it was a deliberate choice, has made us the laughing stock of the competition. It exposed us as a lazy club. One not willing to do the hard work (within the rules and spirit of the game)necessary to get back up the ladder. It has exposed our CEO as a two-time cheat. It has exposed the model that Schwab put forward in his Whiteboard Wednesday series as horribly flawed. It forgot that leaders such as McDonald, Bruce, Mclean (three best in our last finals win), even Miller and Johnstone could guide a new generation back up the ladder. We wanted an easier way, one without integrity, proper leadership and hard work.

Tanking gave the players an excuse. An excuse not to perform. And such a mindset becomes ingrained in your culture. Sportsmen shouldn't be given a reason not to perform at 100 percent. Is it any wonder that we curse that the likes of Sylvia have not come on as players?

As soon as I read that, I realised you had no idea.

Johnstone never needed an excuse not to perform, Miller was simply not good enough, McLean was so slow that I would probably beat him over 100 mtrs and Bruce was responsible for some of the worst handball in AFL history. We had a [censored] list a [censored] coach and that's why we were so bad and delisted/lost 15 players at the end of the season.

  On 13/01/2013 at 10:13, dee-tox said:

The cold, hard facts are we tanked. We can curse Caro, Brock McLean or any other person that has a crack at us, but why bother?Such a decision, and it was a deliberate choice, has made us the laughing stock of the competition. It exposed us as a lazy club. One not willing to do the hard work (within the rules and spirit of the game)necessary to get back up the ladder. It has exposed our CEO as a two-time cheat. It has exposed the model that Schwab put forward in his Whiteboard Wednesday series as horribly flawed. It forgot that leaders such as McDonald, Bruce, Mclean (three best in our last finals win), even Miller and Johnstone could guide a new generation back up the ladder. We wanted an easier way, one without integrity, proper leadership and hard work.Tanking gave the players an excuse. An excuse not to perform. And such a mindset becomes ingrained in your culture. Sportsmen shouldn't be given a reason not to perform at 100 percent. Is it any wonder that we curse that the likes of Sylvia have not come on as players?

Great post. And those persons who made monumental stuff ups have the audacity to now push the culture change mantra and blame everyone else but themselves for their incompetance. They have destroyed the next eneration of our young players and sucked the soul out of the rest. And too many here gloat at the delusion that we will outsmart the AFL whilst we grovel at the bottom.

  On 13/01/2013 at 10:13, dee-tox said:

The cold, hard facts are we tanked. We can curse Caro, Brock McLean or any other person that has a crack at us, but why bother?Such a decision, and it was a deliberate choice, has made us the laughing stock of the competition. It exposed us as a lazy club. One not willing to do the hard work (within the rules and spirit of the game)necessary to get back up the ladder. It has exposed our CEO as a two-time cheat. It has exposed the model that Schwab put forward in his Whiteboard Wednesday series as horribly flawed. It forgot that leaders such as McDonald, Bruce, Mclean (three best in our last finals win), even Miller and Johnstone could guide a new generation back up the ladder. We wanted an easier way, one without integrity, proper leadership and hard work.Tanking gave the players an excuse. An excuse not to perform. And such a mindset becomes ingrained in your culture. Sportsmen shouldn't be given a reason not to perform at 100 percent. Is it any wonder that we curse that the likes of Sylvia have not come on as players?

The best you can do is Bruce, McLean, Miller and Johnstone ? Seriously ?

  On 13/01/2013 at 10:13, dee-tox said:

The cold, hard facts are we tanked. We can curse Caro, Brock McLean or any other person that has a crack at us, but why bother?

Such a decision, and it was a deliberate choice, has made us the laughing stock of the competition. It exposed us as a lazy club. One not willing to do the hard work (within the rules and spirit of the game)necessary to get back up the ladder. It has exposed our CEO as a two-time cheat. It has exposed the model that Schwab put forward in his Whiteboard Wednesday series as horribly flawed. It forgot that leaders such as McDonald, Bruce, Mclean (three best in our last finals win), even Miller and Johnstone could guide a new generation back up the ladder. We wanted an easier way, one without integrity, proper leadership and hard work.

Tanking gave the players an excuse. An excuse not to perform. And such a mindset becomes ingrained in your culture. Sportsmen shouldn't be given a reason not to perform at 100 percent. Is it any wonder that we curse that the likes of Sylvia have not come on as players?

rubbish

there almost as many errors in that post as there are words

OK I've got no idea!

Keep up the delusion. Tanking has ripped apart the fabric of the club. That's one of the main reasons we have performed so badly since 2006. Most (astute) posters on this site know we tanked. But no-one looks at the impact decisions like these have on professional sportsmen. No different to Pakistani cricketers fixing matches. Any excuse not to perform at 100 percent has catastrophic implications that permeate through your whole club.

  On 13/01/2013 at 10:13, dee-tox said:

The cold, hard facts are we tanked. We can curse Caro, Brock McLean or any other person that has a crack at us, but why bother?Such a decision, and it was a deliberate choice, has made us the laughing stock of the competition. It exposed us as a lazy club. One not willing to do the hard work (within the rules and spirit of the game)necessary to get back up the ladder. It has exposed our CEO as a two-time cheat. It has exposed the model that Schwab put forward in his Whiteboard Wednesday series as horribly flawed. It forgot that leaders such as McDonald, Bruce, Mclean (three best in our last finals win), even Miller and Johnstone could guide a new generation back up the ladder. We wanted an easier way, one without integrity, proper leadership and hard work.Tanking gave the players an excuse. An excuse not to perform. And such a mindset becomes ingrained in your culture. Sportsmen shouldn't be given a reason not to perform at 100 percent. Is it any wonder that we curse that the likes of Sylvia have not come on as players?

Dont think so.

  On 13/01/2013 at 10:58, dee-tox said:

OK I've got no idea!

Keep up the delusion. Tanking has ripped apart the fabric of the club. That's one of the main reasons we have performed so badly since 2006. Most (astute) posters on this site know we tanked. But no-one looks at the impact decisions like these have on professional sportsmen. No different to Pakistani cricketers fixing matches. Any excuse not to perform at 100 percent has catastrophic implications that permeate through your whole club.

See, even you agree.

So we tanked from 2006 did we; better let the investigators know, it will probably extend the inquiry for another 2 years.

  On 13/01/2013 at 10:58, dee-tox said:

OK I've got no idea!Keep up the delusion. Tanking has ripped apart the fabric of the club. That's one of the main reasons we have performed so badly since 2006. Most (astute) posters on this site know we tanked. But no-one looks at the impact decisions like these have on professional sportsmen. No different to Pakistani cricketers fixing matches. Any excuse not to perform at 100 percent has catastrophic implications that permeate through your whole club.

I don't know why I am responding - ill humour you for a moment and say our actions constituted tanking. If so, is it your belief that Hawthorn, Collingwood , WCE and Carltons actions were not the same and were not tanking. (That question is rhetorical as the only answer is that if what we did is tanking then they are also tankers). please point to the catastrophic implications that the above teams have encountered - all in the finals and 3 premierships

  On 13/01/2013 at 10:13, dee-tox said:

The cold, hard facts are we tanked. We can curse Caro, Brock McLean or any other person that has a crack at us, but why bother?

Such a decision, and it was a deliberate choice, has made us the laughing stock of the competition. It exposed us as a lazy club. One not willing to do the hard work (within the rules and spirit of the game)necessary to get back up the ladder. It has exposed our CEO as a two-time cheat. It has exposed the model that Schwab put forward in his Whiteboard Wednesday series as horribly flawed. It forgot that leaders such as McDonald, Bruce, Mclean (three best in our last finals win), even Miller and Johnstone could guide a new generation back up the ladder. We wanted an easier way, one without integrity, proper leadership and hard work.

Tanking gave the players an excuse. An excuse not to perform. And such a mindset becomes ingrained in your culture. Sportsmen shouldn't be given a reason not to perform at 100 percent. Is it any wonder that we curse that the likes of Sylvia have not come on as players?

So what are you going to do about it?

1. gnaw that old bone known as "the past".

OR

2. crawl to the AFL and say "kick me".

OR

3. fight like hell to defeat these unfair charges, and support the club, the coach, the players through hell and high water.

  On 13/01/2013 at 10:13, dee-tox said:

The cold, hard facts are we tanked.

Prove it.

  On 13/01/2013 at 10:58, dee-tox said:

OK I've got no idea!

It's not that.

It's that going over old ground, particularly to grind an old axe, is not going to achieve anything.

There is no way but forward.

  On 13/01/2013 at 10:58, dee-tox said:

OK I've got no idea!

Keep up the delusion. Tanking has ripped apart the fabric of the club. That's one of the main reasons we have performed so badly since 2006. Most (astute) posters on this site know we tanked. But no-one looks at the impact decisions like these have on professional sportsmen. No different to Pakistani cricketers fixing matches. Any excuse not to perform at 100 percent has catastrophic implications that permeate through your whole club.

Oh we tanked alright. Did it half arsed the way we've pretty much done everything else since 1964. But you're over rating the effect of the fabric of the club. The club wasn't professional to begin with and that wasn't going to change without a major overhaul (fingers crossed this is the one). Tanking as an effect on the culture was just one more rip in a very tattered piece of fabric. In a wierd way the whole thing seems to have been the straw that forced us to get fair dinkum. I mean we can't even cheat properly. If we can't do that maybe we might as well forget about the short cuts and see if we can give the professional attitude a try.

  Quote

Johnstone never needed an excuse not to perform, Miller was simply not good enough, McLean was so slow that I would probably beat him over 100 mtrs and Bruce was responsible for some of the worst handball in AFL history. We had a [censored] list a [censored] coach and that's why we were so bad and delisted/lost 15 players at the end of the season.

That's about the size of it.

  nutbean said:

I don't know why I am responding - ill humour you for a moment and say our actions constituted tanking. If so, is it your belief that Hawthorn, Collingwood , WCE and Carltons actions were not the same and were not tanking. (That question is rhetorical as the only answer is that if what we did is tanking then they are also tankers). please point to the catastrophic implications that the above teams have encountered - all in the finals and 3 premierships

It's a good point you raise. All i can say is the club's you mentioned at least seemed to have a better culture under Malthouse, Clarkson, Worsfold etc than we did with Schwab/Bailey. Those club's at least didn't exit the majority of their senior players, ones like Junior, Bruce etc that had played finals. Such a lack of leadership led to results like 186.

  On 13/01/2013 at 11:06, nutbean said:

I don't know why I am responding - ill humour you for a moment and say our actions constituted tanking. If so, is it your belief that Hawthorn, Collingwood , WCE and Carltons actions were not the same and were not tanking. (That question is rhetorical as the only answer is that if what we did is tanking then they are also tankers). please point to the catastrophic implications that the above teams have encountered - all in the finals and 3 premierships

The main difference was that they had the infrastructure to make it work. FD, training facilities, development program, recruiting department and senior players to lead the way. We've been playing catch up and now we are in position to take advantage.

...by the way did anyone notice Matt Rendell in Collingwood gear walking around the ground at training on Friday. I guess that answers the questions about Jason Taylor joining us.

  On 13/01/2013 at 11:20, dee-tox said:

It's a good point you raise. All i can say is the club's you mentioned at least seemed to have a better culture under Malthouse, Clarkson, Worsfold etc than we did with Schwab/Bailey. Those club's at least didn't exit the majority of their senior players, ones like Junior, Bruce etc that had played finals. Such a lack of leadership led to results like 186.

Do you seriously believe that our club's culture deteriorated under Schwab, who by the way didn't employ Bailey?

We have been so bad for so long it's a joke but you want to sheet all the blame to a couple of people. Lets also remember that the players you mentioned may have played in finals but realistically we were there to make up the numbers and didn't stand a chance of winning a flag.

Have a look at the difference between us and the three other clubs you mentioned and if you can't spot that difference then you're stupid.

  On 13/01/2013 at 10:50, america de cali said:

Great post. And those persons who made monumental stuff ups have the audacity to now push the culture change mantra and blame everyone else but themselves for their incompetance. They have destroyed the next eneration of our young players and sucked the soul out of the rest. And too many here gloat at the delusion that we will outsmart the AFL whilst we grovel at the bottom.

Look who predictably comes out from under his rock.

You can go back in.

  On 13/01/2013 at 10:58, dee-tox said:

OK I've got no idea!

Keep up the delusion. Tanking has ripped apart the fabric of the club. That's one of the main reasons we have performed so badly since 2006. Most (astute) posters on this site know we tanked. But no-one looks at the impact decisions like these have on professional sportsmen. No different to Pakistani cricketers fixing matches. Any excuse not to perform at 100 percent has catastrophic implications that permeate through your whole club.

Lol

Do you even know what Tanking is?

Because you sound like a fool.

We didn't tank. We put development ahead of ladder position. It's called planning for the future idiot.

People like you get on your high horse and try to denigrate the club for doing what needed to be done for our future. Your view is too narrow to see this, or it is obstructed by hidden agendas.

The people that actually want the club to do well long term opened this list management era with open arms. You probably did too at the time, but now to suit your ignorant short sighted new sense of morality surrounding the issue you frown upon it.

What kind of supporter are you? Moron.