Of the outstanding this is the deal I WOULD like to see happen. Ray will walk in a help straighten out the midfield from day 1.

Pedo handy not necessary. Someone like Ray IS a needed addition? We need some experience .

St Kilda recruiting manager on SEN just said that they have had no further contact from MFC since original approach.

I don't want to win 8 to 10 games a year I want to have a group of players capable of winning a flag.

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. I can't see the team going from four to 16 wins in the space of a season. We need to win some games now and I remember saying in 2007 that the team needs to learn how to win.

St Kilda recruiting manager on SEN just said that they have had no further contact from MFC since original approach.

It just shows that if you are not one of the actual people involved doing the deals or a confidant of them, you don't know what the hell is going on. I would have thought there would have been a few discussions between the parties by now, clearly not.

Nearly 200 posts and 8 pages and most of it just speculation or hope.

I was once a very hardline - Kids Develop Best in the AFL - zealot. But now I don't think that is possible at our club.

We don't have the senior players to allow them to flourish. And now our senior players are those young kids we need to develop...

If getting Dawes, Pedersen, Ray, Rodan, Byrnes for between 2 to 6 years takes some burden off those kids then I am all for it.

And the bonus would be we are more competitive right now.

We have enough kids and they have plenty of opportunities.

What they don't have is support.

Edited October 24, 201212 yr by rpfc

St Kilda recruiting manager on SEN just said that they have had no further contact from MFC since original approach.

Just like Collingwood said they were done with trade period and 12 hours later signed with them, this season is all about playing funny buggers. I'm sure there's been more than that.

Edited October 23, 201212 yr by Demon Land 7

I was once a very hardline - Kids Develop Best in the AFL - zealot. But now I don't think that is possible at our club.

We don't have the senior players to allow them to flourish. And now our senior players are those young kids we need to develop...

If getting Dawes, Pedersen, Ray, Rodan, Byrnes for between 2 to 6 years takes some burden off those kids then I am all for it.

And the bonus would be we are more competitive right now.

We have enough kids and they have plenty of opportunities.

Won't they don't have is support.

.

This is my issue, I don't want to see the team populated by rejects from other clubs while we get the young kids up to scratch over ther next 4 to 6 years. I would certainly hope that we will be a much better team in the next 2 to 3 years and that the temporary stop gaps we are putting in place are gone by then.

I don't have a problem with Dawes or Byrnes and maybe even Ray and Pederson, at the right price, but when we start to look at Rodan and some other players that may or may not be of any value, I object.

Having Junior, Cornes and Brogan did nothing to help GWS, you need quality senior players not ageing hacks.

Edited October 23, 201212 yr by RobbieF

.

This is my issue, I don't want to see the team populated by rejects from other clubs while we get the young kids up to scratch over ther next 4 to 6 years. I would certainly hope that we will be a much better team in the next 2 to 3 years and that the temporary stop gaps we are putting in place are gone by then.

I don't have a problem with Dawes or Byrnes and maybe even Ray and Pederson, at the right price, but when we start to look at Rodan and some other players that may or may not be of any value, I object.

Having Junior, Cornes and Brogan did nothing to help GWS, you need quality senior players not ageing hacks.

Agree generally with your thrust. Rodan is an unusual one. He would cost nothing as a delisted player and has exceptional speed and a strong body. If his knees hold up he could be a damaging player for a couple of seasons. He can break packs and set up goals. He can also be a bit selfish in his game, but if that was modified he could be a great, cheap get for a couple of years. IMO he would be a better player than Byrnes.

Interesting to see if FD go for him. Will depend on how many we clear and delist.

It just shows that if you are not one of the actual people involved doing the deals or a confidant of them, you don't know what the hell is going on. I would have thought there would have been a few discussions between the parties by now, clearly not.

Nearly 200 posts and 8 pages and most of it just speculation or hope.

There was a bit more to it than that.

Melbourne expressed interest in Ray and Ray said he'd entertain the idea of a trade, so there's a bit to work with. Pelchen then said that Melbourne have been very active and busy, which has meant there hasn't been much further discussion regarding any Ray deal. But he gave the distinct impression that if Melbourne could come up with something suitable they'd entertain the idea and so would Ray.

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. I can't see the team going from four to 16 wins in the space of a season. We need to win some games now and I remember saying in 2007 that the team needs to learn how to win.

What I meant was I don't want to win 8 to 10 games a year in perpetuity, I’m happy if we can that many next year and the year after but I would like some improvement after that. I certainly hope that this doesn’t create a precedent where we will concentrate on recruiting senior players at other clubs to the detriment of recruiting young kids in the draft.

If this is a stop gap and not something we can “look forward to” every year I’m happy; still don’t want Rodan though.

What I meant was I don't want to win 8 to 10 games a year in perpetuity, I’m happy if we can that many next year and the year after but I would like some improvement after that. I certainly hope that this doesn’t create a precedent where we will concentrate on recruiting senior players at other clubs to the detriment of recruiting young kids in the draft.

If this is a stop gap and not something we can “look forward to” every year I’m happy; still don’t want Rodan though.

I know where you are coming from. For Rodan to be taken on he has to be worth the deletion of a player and the non-use of a pick. But we have traded out of this draft effectively and have a number of players to delist.

We have a vacant spot on the list from the removal of the VL, with Green, Moloney, Rivers, Jurrah, Bennell, Cook, Martin, and Bate, and possibly Petterd, MacDonald, Davis, Jetta, Batram, Dunn and Bail on the block this year.

It is subjective of course, but I can see 11 or 12 openings on the PL.

ND4, Viney, Dawes, Barry, Byrnes, Nicholson, and Evans make 7 with possibly Pedersen and Ray making 9. PSD3 will come into consideration for 10. Any late ND picks may be used but if we are looking at 63 as the pick - we may say 'we will take our speculative kids in the rookie draft and get a couple vets that can contribute right now.'

Needless to say the futures of Petterd, Davis, Jetta, Batram and Bail are tied to our pursuit of Pedersen and Ray and the worthiness of having PSD3 and getting Rodan, Salopek, Banner, Stiller, et al.

I was once a very hardline - Kids Develop Best in the AFL - zealot. But now I don't think that is possible at our club.

So in otherwords you change your mind depending on what the club is doing?

Having Junior, Cornes and Brogan did nothing to help GWS, you need quality senior players not ageing hacks.

Are you serious? They set a culture there of hardwork. Cornes and Junior are two of the hardest trainers around and from everything you hear, Brogan is a really good working with the young rucks too. Those players backed up everything Sheedy said and did really well. Absolute country miles ahead of the help Ablett/rischitelli/brennan/bock/etc gave GC.

We really need senior players who are going to work hard to set a trend. We've been moaning about it for a couple of years. I remember someone talking about how they were chatting to Andrew Mackie at the end of last year, and he'd said that Melbourne has a great list which hasnt developed as well as they could because they don't have the senior players to show them how. Totally agree.

I don't see us taking a couple of senior players as stopping the development of the team. I see them as taking the place of some of our players who haven't reached their potential, and really, we're just hoping that they'll turn into something amazing aka Bate, Petterd, Bennell, Jetta, Macdonald etc

Are you serious? They set a culture there of hardwork. Cornes and Junior are two of the hardest trainers around and from everything you hear, Brogan is a really good working with the young rucks too. Those players backed up everything Sheedy said and did really well. Absolute country miles ahead of the help Ablett/rischitelli/brennan/bock/etc gave GC.

We really need senior players who are going to work hard to set a trend. We've been moaning about it for a couple of years. I remember someone talking about how they were chatting to Andrew Mackie at the end of last year, and he'd said that Melbourne has a great list which hasnt developed as well as they could because they don't have the senior players to show them how. Totally agree.

I don't see us taking a couple of senior players as stopping the development of the team. I see them as taking the place of some of our players who haven't reached their potential, and really, we're just hoping that they'll turn into something amazing aka Bate, Petterd, Bennell, Jetta, Macdonald etc

You know that for a fact do you?

If you read my post you will see that I'm not against recruiting senior players in to the team, just not too many and only ones who have some sort of longevity and I don't want to see it continue for year after year; just topping up with older players each year is not the way I want to see the club go.

There have been many people who have said we had a great list and most of them are/were wrong hence the number we are probably going to delist. High draft picks do not always make a good young list.

So in otherwords you change your mind depending on what the club is doing?

I would say that is specious reasoning.

But you are welcome to that view if that is what you have seen.

I believe this view has been molded since the start of 2011 with our senior players being useless but our talent young and needing support while they take over the leadership of the club. How I desired for a young LG and multiple young captains:

Surely the players have to take some of that blame?

Bailey will fall if this doesn't improve no doubt but what happens to the failed Green captaincy?

Or the failed Leadership Group?

Or the failure that is the performance of our senior players - the ones 'that play with no ticker when things get tough'?

Is it the approach or the players?

OD says it's the players - they are not as good as we thought.

This year he is dead right.

If you are over 24 and playing for Melbourne, you are mentally weak, you have poor leadership skills, and bad body language. You play with heart when the team is firing and lose your passion when it gets difficult.

Bailey may go, but him leaving doesn't remove the problem.

It just gives the senior players one less excuse for their pathetic displays.

And:

I think the kids are great.

They need to take over, however.

We talk about being brave and taking initiative (another poster thinks that means we should draft Fevola...i don't think that is the best way)

We should have the Leadership Group made up of the U/24 brigade with every other player on the list told that they may be a part of the future but that the future will be driven by the kids who will now lead them. If they arc up - calm them down. If you can't do that - let them go.

Our 'senior' players have a level of responsibility and influence at the club that the haven't earned and don't deserve.

I also believed we should trade-in some experience:

Not too early.

Bate, Dunn, Warnock to go. Maric maybe.

Rookies released except for Nicho and Evans.

Sylvia and Morton to be re-signed but if they don't agree, traded for ready made players.

By your reasoning the club just did what I thought and followed my lead; they agreed that the LG of 2011 was an abject failure worthy of replacing it with my U/24 LG (save for Jamar), and also took on board my desire for ready made players (Clark, Dawes, Byrnes, et al)...(IWUAEHIIUE)

Needless to say - I am adamant that my view is determined by the facts, not the club...

You know that for a fact do you?

If you read my post you will see that I'm not against recruiting senior players in to the team, just not too many and only ones who have some sort of longevity and I don't want to see it continue for year after year; just topping up with older players each year is not the way I want to see the club go.

There have been many people who have said we had a great list and most of them are/were wrong hence the number we are probably going to delist. High draft picks do not always make a good young list.

Nope, don't know that for a fact, just listening to what the players and coaches have to say, and looking at the development of the players. I agree with the rest of your post, sorry if it sounds like I didn't, but I do think you contradict yourself a little when you talk about how the GWS dad's army didn't help.

I would say that is specious reasoning.

Took that one to heart did you mate? you didnt need to go back through the history books to prove me wrong!

Took that one to heart did you mate? you didnt need to go back through the history books to prove me wrong!

Nah, it's ok.

I like it. Good for the ego.

Unlikely to get Ray now.... any other equivalent players out there? Something out of left-field maybe...

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/150283/default.aspx

Unlikely to get Ray now.... any other equivalent players out there? Something out of left-field maybe...

http://www.afl.com.a...83/default.aspx

If we can get a decent pick for Martin (33) or back for Gysberts (39) then I wouldn't rule it out - but yeah looking unlikely now.

Still want him.

Still want him.

Not a closed book yet. Pask has been saying that for 2 weeks.

Package Martin with Pick 49 to Brisbane for 33.

33 to Saints for Ray

Package Martin with Pick 49 to Brisbane for 33.

33 to Saints for Ray

Please don't waste pick 33 on Farren Ray. 2 years ago we got Howe with pick 33. Surely we can find someone better than Ray at pick 33. Someone harder.

Farren Ray is a better version of Rohan Bail and having both would be very useful.