He will Go To Sydney West, and the commentary will run thus: Scully sprays the ball and Cloke doesn't mark it.

could be a double-negative.. cloke is badly out position, which puts him in the perfet spot to mark Scully's shank

That (the MFC example) is a very specific response (which includes only one successful forward) to a general discussion point I raised - lift your eyes and try to think beyond the present. To give two examples, several years ago recruiters went for athletes and tried to make them footballers - it didn't work. Recruiters also ignored short players for several years, now that has changed. All I am saying is that football is constantly changing - we would not have had Ron Barassi if Norm Smith wasn't open to innovation (or the 1964 flag).

Nothing in football is set in concrete.

True, that was just the best example I could think of!

All I'm saying, and I stopped writing the post PSD just wrote about halfway through, was that its just so important to have those big guys.

And at the moment, only 1 is available, and he wont cost us anything except a pile of money we have to park somewhere, so might as well be him!

I know it's history, but some of our best teams didn't have dominating big key forwards (Barry Bourke!), but others did (Bob Johnson). Doesn't that tell us something? Shouldn't we be moulding a team, rather than just following the latest moves of other clubs? Currently, the Hawkins/Cloke style of forward is in vogue. Maybe we should be the innovators and go for multiple goalkickers regardless of size or position - time to think outside the square? Just a lateral thought for a moment.

Sadly I agree - I think we have been guilty of following the trends for a long time.

However I do not get that feeling this time with Neeld. Most premiership teams do have the two big forwards..... see Pennant St dee's post

You have forgotten Darren Bennet. Didn't he kick around 90 in 1990? If you have forgotton him it is likely because he played like Cloke.

Yep Bennett was good in 1990 and OK in 1989. Don't know if he got 90 though more like 70 but yeah, was still a very good player that year. OK then you can count our good forwards in my time on one hand and a thumb. B)

If Cloke and Clark were in our forward line it would be frightening to coaches to ponder who do I put my best defender on and while I may cover those two who goes to Jurrah, Howe and Sylvia. Stevie J was a loose cannon until he got suspended for 6 games by Cats leadership group in 07 then he just took off, I think Sylvia is showing signs of it sinking in. We have underestimated the injury he copped at the start of the year.

As many forward options as you can get is a bonus, Kennedy, Darling, Lynch, Lecras, Nicoski & a resting Cox/Natanui were a nightmare to all defences in 2011 & will be next year if they are all fit again

You've got to remember as well, I think, that many contenders also have an abundance of midfielders who kick goals.

How many current teams have one big key forward, better still, how many have two big key forwards Nasher?

How about the five teams currently at the top of the ladder for a start off?

Sydney: Goodes, LRT

Adelaide: Tippett, Walker

Hawthorn: Franklin, Roughead

Collingwood: Cloke, Dawes

West Coast: Kennedy, Lynch

How about the five teams currently at the top of the ladder for a start off?

Sydney: Goodes, LRT

Adelaide: Tippett, Walker

Hawthorn: Franklin, Roughead

Collingwood: Cloke, Dawes

West Coast: Kennedy, Lynch

Damn you, facts and reason. Damn you, evidence and argument. I will now slink back in to the dark, to make obscure references to topics I cannot define and issues I won't argue or give example to.

If only I barracked for Adelaide!

No old55, he may have asked for too much at Collingwood, especially if they are now being squeezed in the salary cap, and hence we need to be careful in what we may offer him, if we do. IMO, he's starting to look like someone who's been caught out wanting too much.

Look I'll try to break it down for you ...

Hardnut goes to an auction.

Auctioneer: What am I bid for this fine property?

Man in black and white jumper: 750

Auctioneer: I've got a bid of 750, The property is not yet on the market, what are you offering?

Hardnut: 750

Auctioneer: I've already got a bid of 750 from the man in black and white

Hardnut: that's all I'm willing to pay

Yep Bennett was good in 1990 and OK in 1989. Don't know if he got 90 though more like 70 but yeah, was still a very good player that year. OK then you can count our good forwards in my time on one hand and a thumb. B)

Pretty sure it was mid 80's

You've got to remember as well, I think, that many contenders also have an abundance of midfielders who kick goals.

I agree.....

But you also forget it is easier to go to the draft (unless you are the MFC ffs even Richmond got cotchin) and draft and develop quality mids then it is to draft a quality Key forward.

Again look at the MFC - how many good quality key forwards have we drafted lately??? And how long do they take to develop???

Get Cloke

From what I am hearing I don't believe we are into Cloke.

From what I am hearing I don't believe we are into Cloke.

what are you hearing ??

From what I am hearing I don't believe we are into Cloke.

makes sense if you believe the article that says we are after Hogan in the mini draft. I don't think we would want Cloke,Clarke and Hogan it's a bit of overkill.

From what I am hearing I don't believe we are into Cloke.

I wouldn't be unhappy if we didn't get him but I would also understand if we did. At the end of the day it is an option not a must.

Look I'll try to break it down for you ...

Hardnut goes to an auction.

Auctioneer: What am I bid for this fine property?

Man in black and white jumper: 750

Auctioneer: I've got a bid of 750, The property is not yet on the market, what are you offering?

Hardnut: 750

Auctioneer: I've already got a bid of 750 from the man in black and white

Hardnut: 750 plus we'll front-end the first year by 100%, that should be worth something

How about the five teams currently at the top of the ladder for a start off?

Sydney: Goodes, LRT

Adelaide: Tippett, Walker

Hawthorn: Franklin, Roughead

Collingwood: Cloke, Dawes

West Coast: Kennedy, Lynch

Yeah, these went through my mind (also Geelong with Hawkins/Pods). I'm not sure you can include Sydney, WC and Hawks quite as simply as you have because they play variations a lot (and form/injury has had an effect on some combinations as well this year).

However, did you read PSD's historical post which looked more at CHF/FF combinations? I think we need to clearly define what two 'power forwards' means - in modern football, I would have thought Hawkins/Pods, Tippet/Walker and maybe Cloke/Dawes were closest.

The discussion I promoted was 'innovative thinking' as opposed to following the pack, if you read back through the posts. It was not anti Cloke, anti power forwards, and there was no agenda to it - just a chance to think laterally. To throw one more thought in - Wayne Carey and Pagan's paddock?

Look I'll try to break it down for you ...

Hardnut goes to an auction.

Auctioneer: What am I bid for this fine property?

Man in black and white jumper: 750

Auctioneer: I've got a bid of 750, The property is not yet on the market, what are you offering?

Hardnut: 750

Auctioneer: I've already got a bid of 750 from the man in black and white

Hardnut: that's all I'm willing to pay

If only football auctions were as simple as property auctions!

I wouldn't be unhappy if we didn't get him but I would also understand if we did. At the end of the day it is an option not a must.

I agree, but I have a gut feel we will get him.

Yeah, these went through my mind (also Geelong with Hawkins/Pods). I'm not sure you can include Sydney, WC and Hawks quite as simply as you have because they play variations a lot (and form/injury has had an effect on some combinations as well this year).

However, did you read PSD's historical post which looked more at CHF/FF combinations? I think we need to clearly define what two 'power forwards' means - in modern football, I would have thought Hawkins/Pods, Tippet/Walker and maybe Cloke/Dawes were closest.

The discussion I promoted was 'innovative thinking' as opposed to following the pack, if you read back through the posts. It was not anti Cloke, anti power forwards, and there was no agenda to it - just a chance to think laterally. To throw one more thought in - Wayne Carey and Pagan's paddock?

Look I understand your position perfectly ...

You're questioning the value of two key forwards in today's football when the top 7 teams on the ladder all have this structure and you're open to recruiting Cloke but you don't want to pay more than the offer he already refused at Collingwood.

You can't be a little bit pregnant, we're either going for Cloke or we're not - 5 years x $1M with a substantial part front-loaded gets us in the game. Otherwise you're wasting your time.

Agree on not wanting to overpay, but given we have to pay 92.5 - 95% of our TPP each year I would be appalled if we were paying our current team as much as the Pies or Cats or Hawks need to pay their players (i.e. our boy are yet to get close to, yet alone win a flag) so we should have scope to pay more to players coming in (i.e. Cloke).

To my thinking, if we land Cloke, we are a year closer to finals and GF.

And I am really tired of waiting.

We're not in a position to do the same things better than other more well resourced clubs.

I agree with Hardnut that we need to think outside the box and be daring. that's what recruiting Cloke is about. We can recruit him using our TPP gap AND bolster our midfield using our draft advantages this year. We should do both.

Getting Cloke will massively boost our chances of landing a quality mid or two. They are not mutually exclusive, if any thing the opposite.

From what I am hearing I don't believe we are into Cloke.

makes sense if you believe the article that says we are after Hogan in the mini draft. I don't think we would want Cloke,Clarke and Hogan it's a bit of overkill.

Any more to add from these two posts?

It's interesting to note Malthouse's comments re Cloke in light of what people have been saying here about his underwhelming performance this season (and especially considering many of his critics agree that he had a very good/outstanding season last year):

"He's still the highest contested-marking player in the competition, and he's only about 10 goals off last year, he's lost a bit of confidence because he's attending to two players."

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/cloke-may-go-says-malthouse-20120822-24mt4.html#ixzz24KOWrfN5