A Basic skill this club lacks....How much do we pay our list yearly...and they can't kick!!!

As Bill Cosby once said "I can't deal with it..."

I disagree with the opinion that Frawley is a poor kick, apart from the stats back me up on it, the other major difference between his kicking and and others that stuff it up is that he kicks to advantage. So even if it doesn't hit them lace out, generally they are in a much better position than there opponent.

Grimes used to be a great kick, before his last long injury he would spot someone up and nail them with precision, it reckon he's down on confidence with that area atm. Blease I'd rate at as one of our best kicks, he just doesn't get enough of it to show it. And Jones has improved his kicking out of sight, but he has also changed his way of thinking, he lowers his head a lot more than others in the team.

Maldonboy; I can't believe you rated Bate as one of our best kicks. For goal perhaps, but on the run he looks like he's kicking a lead balloon. Morton is a good long kick, short he butchers it trying to be too cute.

Hawthorn have been recruiting players with good disposal under pressure & players who are aggressive/hard at it since Clarkson arrived. It's not really a new story in footy, it's almost a pre requisite for any new recruit IMO. Might be a good thing that Viney spent time at the Hawks as he would have a fair idea on what type of players they looked at. It may help him in his new role.

A Basic skill this club lacks....How much do we pay our list yearly...and they can't kick!!!

As Bill Cosby once said "I can't deal with it..."

$9.4 million wyl

Tidy sum !

Hawthorn have been recruiting players with good disposal under pressure & players who are aggressive/hard at it since Clarkson arrived. It's not really a new story in footy, it's almost a pre requisite for any new recruit IMO. Might be a good thing that Viney spent time at the Hawks as he would have a fair idea on what type of players they looked at. It may help him in his new role.

I'm not so sure. It's only recently that a kicking test was added to the Draft camp (aka the Combine...presumably now called that because it's where clubs harvest players. Yes, silly joke, but it's a silly name). Prior to that recruiters were obsessed with athletic skills such as vertical leaps and beep tests. Somewhat ironic that WCE are quoted as leaders in this field given they pioneered the policy of recruiting athletes rather than naturally skilled footballers in the 1990s. Give me skilled footballers every time. They can be turned into athletes. It's much harder, but not impossible, to turn athletes into footballers (eg, Jim Stynes).

And to quibble with comments above, Petterd is not a good kick; Bate has an extraordinarily ugly but very effective left foot but an appalling right foot; Dunn is long, but not always accurate; Mitch Clark has shown this year he's an excellent kick for goal; Davey is our best "short kick on his preferred foot" but not much good on his right; Bail is not nearly as bad as suggested but neither is he as good as he needs to be; and if you could somehow score a player's kicking on right foot/left foot/ distance/ accuracy/set shot/ running shot etc, I suspect Jack Watts would be the best followed by Sam Blease and Luke Tapscott (I haven't seen enough of James Strauss with the ball to know).

$9.4 million wyl

Tidy sum !

Yes our club spends the same coin on salary as other clubs that CAN kick! Hardly value for money. Hardly fits the picture of professional athletes.

I'm not so sure. It's only recently that a kicking test was added to the Draft camp (aka the Combine...presumably now called that because it's where clubs harvest players. Yes, silly joke, but it's a silly name). Prior to that recruiters were obsessed with athletic skills such as vertical leaps and beep tests. Somewhat ironic that WCE are quoted as leaders in this field given they pioneered the policy of recruiting athletes rather than naturally skilled footballers in the 1990s. Give me skilled footballers every time. They can be turned into athletes. It's much harder, but not impossible, to turn athletes into footballers (eg, Jim Stynes).

And to quibble with comments above, Petterd is not a good kick; Bate has an extraordinarily ugly but very effective left foot but an appalling right foot; Dunn is long, but not always accurate; Mitch Clark has shown this year he's an excellent kick for goal; Davey is our best "short kick on his preferred foot" but not much good on his right; Bail is not nearly as bad as suggested but neither is he as good as he needs to be; and if you could somehow score a player's kicking on right foot/left foot/ distance/ accuracy/set shot/ running shot etc, I suspect Jack Watts would be the best followed by Sam Blease and Luke Tapscott (I haven't seen enough of James Strauss with the ball to know).

Why do you think they have drafted so many left foot players? Because so many left footers in particular are good kicks! They were ahead of the trend.

$9.4 million wyl

Tidy sum !

Our list will be paid $9.4 mill for the 2012 season?

Well f$&@k me, why would you need to improve your skill level?

We should be paying 70% of the salary cap with incentive payments.

That is one of our major root problems right there.

Our list will be paid $9.4 mill for the 2012 season?

Well f$&@k me, why would you need to improve your skill level?

We should be paying 70% of the salary cap with incentive payments.

That is one of our major root problems right there.

You have to pay 95% of the cap every year - whether they kick straight or not.

Gotta pay someone.

You have to pay 95% of the cap every year - whether they kick straight or not.

Gotta pay someone.

I know, a shocking law written by the AFL to keep the lower clubs down in there place.

Where is the incentive to better oneself, when the apprentice is gettin executive wages?

Why do you think they have drafted so many left foot players? Because so many left footers in particular are good kicks! They were ahead of the trend.

left/right who cares ...but they, as should we, place high value on kicking. Amazing ; in a game called football !!

I know, a shocking law written by the AFL to keep the lower clubs down in there place.

Where is the incentive to better oneself, when the apprentice is gettin executive wages?

No, it was to stop teams like NM breaking even and paying 75% of the cap and fielding a shizen side.

I know, a shocking law written by the AFL to keep the lower clubs down in there place.

What?!?! Do you think before you write?

Everything the AFL does is geared around trying to make the competition more even. Why would they possibly want the competition to become less even? Where is the incentive for them?

Why do the empty vessels make so much noise?

No, it was to stop teams like NM breaking even and paying 75% of the cap and fielding a shizen side.

Disagree with that respectfully. NM will be in Tassie soon anyway.

How do we improve our players when they are already getting top coin?

A reason i stated 2 years back in relation to Luke Ball. We needed to recruit players who would set examples of excellence during the battle. But of course i was howled down. And after the 40-50 games our kids needed the problem is exactly the same. Nobody sets the example because they do not know what it is.

What?!?! Do you think before you write?

Everything the AFL does is geared around trying to make the competition more even. Why would they possibly want the competition to become less even? Where is the incentive for them?

Why do the empty vessels make so much noise?

That is not the question i posed. If you pay young kids top dollar where is the incentive to climb the ladder?

Disagree with that respectfully. NM will be in Tassie soon anyway.

How do we improve our players when they are already getting top coin?

A reason i stated 2 years back in relation to Luke Ball. We needed to recruit players who would set examples of excellence during the battle. But of course i was howled down. And after the 40-50 games our kids needed the problem is exactly the same. Nobody sets the example because they do not know what it is.

Well that's my point with your expectations of Trengove.

We don't have the cattle. No cattle to properly pay and no cattle top stop Trengove from having to do what he shouldn't have to do.

He is having a down year and yet, low and behold, holy jebus, he is averaging the 4th most touches behind Jones, Grimes, and Watts.

Spend that money on The Examples and bring in Black, Sewell, and Enright and then see the kids prosper.

That is not the question i posed. If you pay young kids top dollar where is the incentive to climb the ladder?

pride. the joy of excelling, and bettering themselves, at what they really love

Amuses me this having to pay 95% of the cap.

The real reason it exists is the Players union.

They want the Max. spent on players and have no concern for clubs having to pay more than a lot of players deserve.

Obviously clubs like the dees do not have the same level of talent as the swans.

But the MFC have to pay the same for far lower result / Talent

Clubs should be able to pay a lesser figure if they don't have the cattle.

As better cattle arrive you pay more.

It should be up to the club to decide how much a player is worth.

Clearly Bob is way off his Axis in this discussion - that's a physics joke for your benefit Bob.

A pity also that a key skill discussion issue has been infiltrated by the salary cap issue.

The bottom line is that the original concept of this thread was spot-on. Skills are far more valuable than many modern football clubs realise - MFC should take note.

Amuses me this having to pay 95% of the cap.

The real reason it exists is the Players union.

They want the Max. spent on players and have no concern for clubs having to pay more than a lot of players deserve.

Obviously clubs like the dees do not have the same level of talent as the swans.

But the MFC have to pay the same for far lower result / Talent

Clubs should be able to pay a lesser figure if they don't have the cattle.

As better cattle arrive you pay more.

It should be up to the club to decide how much a player is worth.

Spot on OD...I bet our CEO is stoked at having to pay over $50 million since 2006 on player salaries when they cannot even implement basic kicking skills.

A salary cap should be there to stop rich clubs paying overs

but clubs should be able to negotiate anything below that.

pride. the joy of excelling, and bettering themselves, at what they really love

Nice theory there...Carl Marx??

Nathan Jones is surely a prime example of the fact that poor kicks can become very good kicks with time and with hard work. (Todd Viney similarly improved greatly in the latter part of his career after being frankly awful early on.)

I used to despair that he would ever get it right. Well done Nathan.

It is surely a matter of priorities -- the match committee or whoever decides these things need to put a higher weighting on this skill and allocate more time at training sessions to getting this right.

Nathan Jones is surely a prime example of the fact that poor kicks can become very good kicks with time and with hard work. (Todd Viney similarly improved greatly in the latter part of his career after being frankly awful early on.)

I used to despair that he would ever get it right. Well done Nathan.

It is surely a matter of priorities -- the match committee or whoever decides these things need to put a higher weighting on this skill and allocate more time at training sessions to getting this right.

Spot-on 'mono'!

That is not the question i posed. If you pay young kids top dollar where is the incentive to climb the ladder?

You didn't pose the question .... you made an outright statement. You said "I know, a shocking law written by the AFL to keep the lower clubs down in there [sic] place."

You said that the AFL created the law in order to promote a disparity in the league to ensure that poor clubs stay poor. That is simply untrue and idiotic. The AFL has done its best (possibly the best in the world) to ensure that the competition is even and that all clubs have a chance of being successful. This can be seen by the introduction of the draft/salary cap system, the distribution of money to less financially powerful clubs, the opposition to free acency and the compromised free agency when they did introduce it.

What incentive does the AFL have to make the league less competitive? What incentive does it have to create permanent cellar dwellers?

You statement was utterly ridiculous and is consistent with many of your other, poorly thought out and sensationalist posts.

The AFL has done its best (possibly the best in the world) to ensure that the competition is even and that all clubs have a chance of being successful. This can be seen by

... by the introduction of an un-even fixture, by the un-even salary caps, by the un-even outside $ for one club and screw the rest, by [censored] video reviews where the goal umpire in perfect position is overruled by boundry umpire/s 20m+ away, by MRP decisions where well supported clubs are given preference to less well supported clubs, by MFC playing 'home' games at an away venue ... ... ... .. .. .. . . .