Wines doesn't seem to have rich's boot though unfortunately. I rate him highly.

I thought all along that GWS would go lachie, Grundy and Toumpas but then along came the Tippett issue and I changed my mind on Grundy. Now there is speculation they will overlook Toumpas.

I am confused and have no idea now what will happen other than to assume it's Wines unless Toumpas is available. We will soon know.

Confusing yes? Smokescreens over best layed plans? Tim E will tell.

Emma Quayle's rates her top 25.... NOT a phantom a draft

The pick of the crop

Reinforces what we already know, most of the talk is linking us to Wines but the possibility of Toumpas being available will make it a tougher choice.

I find it funny that people that do these mock drafts get so much credence.....Lets face it the draft is a lottery......

All they have seen is 17-18 year olds playing against each other....in the TAC or State Champs....a big bloke in those comps can dominate and show lots of skillls or the little blokes can show speed and agility

But the problem lies is can they do the same against fully professional battle hardened AFL players???

As an example, can Grundy use his size and strenght against Jolly, Sandilands ect....How many years until he can???

Can Toumpas or Wines or Whitfield play up to the likes of Judd,Beams, ect....??

How many years will it take Patton (#1) Coniglio(#2) to make a mark on the competition(May be a bit harder/easier playing for GWS)

We all get excited by players bios and stats but how many of the top 20 in this years draft won't make it ....a few I reckon...

Don't get me wrong the kids have to start somewhere and you can only be as good as the competition you face....I just reckon we over rate a lot of these kids....

No disrespect to Emma, as she's a fine draft journalist, but her top 25 talents each year are an utter waste of time. Her record in accurately assessing these players from a futuristic basis is horrible. And let me say that most experts lists wouldn't be any better.

In the main i believe she gets her order from how she thinks the draft will unfold. I'm not suggesting that's her exact criteria, but I suspect it heavily influences her order.

No disrespect to Emma, as she's a fine draft journalist, but her top 25 talents each year are an utter waste of time. Her record in accurately assessing these players from a futuristic basis is horrible. And let me say that most experts lists wouldn't be any better.

In the main i believe she gets her order from how she thinks the draft will unfold. I'm not suggesting that's her exact criteria, but I suspect it heavily influences her order.

I just enjoy the bits about which players clubs are looking at.

I find it funny that people that do these mock drafts get so much credence.....Lets face it the draft is a lottery......

All they have seen is 17-18 year olds playing against each other....in the TAC or State Champs....a big bloke in those comps can dominate and show lots of skillls or the little blokes can show speed and agility

But the problem lies is can they do the same against fully professional battle hardened AFL players???

As an example, can Grundy use his size and strenght against Jolly, Sandilands ect....How many years until he can???

Can Toumpas or Wines or Whitfield play up to the likes of Judd,Beams, ect....??

How many years will it take Patton (#1) Coniglio(#2) to make a mark on the competition(May be a bit harder/easier playing for GWS)

We all get excited by players bios and stats but how many of the top 20 in this years draft won't make it ....a few I reckon...

Don't get me wrong the kids have to start somewhere and you can only be as good as the competition you face....I just reckon we over rate a lot of these kids....

Statistics say a good percentage of top 5 draft picks will be guns and that more top 20 picked players will go on to become quality players than those drafted 21 - 40+.

Over the years recruiters have improved their methods and their eyes. Just not ours unfortunately.

No disrespect to Emma, as she's a fine draft journalist, but her top 25 talents each year are an utter waste of time. Her record in accurately assessing these players from a futuristic basis is horrible. And let me say that most experts lists wouldn't be any better.

In the main i believe she gets her order from how she thinks the draft will unfold. I'm not suggesting that's her exact criteria, but I suspect it heavily influences her order.

In which case should we go back to our respective posts on Menzel?

I think it's very possible. If we're thinking it, you can bet the FD canvassed it, if not actually tried it on.

5 long days to wait ...

No, surely not in "the vault". Draft fixing? Where is Ms.Wilson?

No disrespect to Emma, as she's a fine draft journalist, but her top 25 talents each year are an utter waste of time. Her record in accurately assessing these players from a futuristic basis is horrible. And let me say that most experts lists wouldn't be any better.

In the main i believe she gets her order from how she thinks the draft will unfold. I'm not suggesting that's her exact criteria, but I suspect it heavily influences her order.

Theres a recruiter from GWS who writes fantastic notes on all the kids but they are often smeared with tomato sauce, gravy , jam , pies,cakes etc so we have to go by Emma Quayle.

Never seen either play but going by their stated midfield type i would prefer toumpas. How many bloody inside mids do we need? A bit of class i would have thought would be more a need. Especially considering we already have jones and now viney as inside enforcers

Honestly, it makes a lot of sense for GWS to go for needs rather than pure best-available.

They are already midfielder heavy after their selections last year, and this year's draft is mid heavy.

Last thing they want is to take 3 mids in the top 3, then practically be forced to take another two at 12 & 14.

But if they go for 3 mids in the first 3, they run the chance of any non-mids they like being already picked -- then they'd potentially have to choose between a best-available mid & a needs player they rank at 26 with pick 12.

Much better to go for a non-mid ranked 3 spots later in the earlier stages, than lose 15 places later on.

Really, this just increases the likelihood they won't fulfil their needs correctly and have an unbalanced list going forward.

As it has been quoted elsewhere before, but I can't remember who by, "it doesn't matter where you pick them, they just need to fit your system."

Plus, I highly doubt there was an agreement with GWS for them to overlook Toumpas -- if that were the case, we'd be more likely to trade pick 4 to them instead of pick 3.

Never seen either play but going by their stated midfield type i would prefer toumpas. How many bloody inside mids do we need? A bit of class i would have thought would be more a need. Especially considering we already have jones and now viney as inside enforcers

As many as we can get!!

Give me inside grunters than any outside mid any day, hour,second of the week

Rotate your insiders who will at least get the pill.

No good having a Toumpas who might not get as much of it if we can't get our hands on it and get out!

First priority in footy GET IT!

a rotational mid field of the likes of Viney, Jones and WINES makes much more sense to me .

That PLUS as mentioned the strong sense if my spies are correct that Toumpas has strong family ties in Sth Aus and the very real "Go Home factor"

Can we risk another Scott Thompson debacle???

No bloody way known

I also do not like the sound of TWO sets of surgery on hips.

WINES MUST BE THE MAN PICKED AT 4

As many as we can get!!

Give me inside grunters than any outside mid any day, hour,second of the week

Rotate your insiders who will at least get the pill.

No good having a Toumpas who might not get as much of it if we can't get our hands on it and get out!

First priority in footy GET IT!

a rotational mid field of the likes of Viney, Jones and WINES makes much more sense to me .

That PLUS as mentioned the strong sense if my spies are correct that Toumpas has strong family ties in Sth Aus and the very real "Go Home factor"

Can we risk another Scott Thompson debacle???

No bloody way known

I also do not like the sound of TWO sets of surgery on hips.

WINES MUST BE THE MAN PICKED AT 4

You clearly have no idea about Toumpas the player and have never seen him play.

Let me help. Here are some comments about Toumpas from people that have:

"Really damaging player with some versatility. Can take over and influence games as well as just about anyone in this draft and throughout the u18 champs for bursts really imposed himself on games which was impressive. Skill level excellent by both hand and foot, has that combination of hurt factor and clean ball use that will make him a big time weapon. Consistently good decision maker. High level athlete and has that combination of explosive speed and agility that will make him desirable as well as in game work rate. Endurance excellent. Also has shown very early on that he can lift for the big games which is I strongly believe is something that he will take with him to AFL level. Can play as a midfielder, forward or back which is a big advantage but long term will no doubt develop into a midfielder. Has the ability to play both as an inside and outside midfielder. One important note with Toumpas is that throughout the u18 champs he was playing with hip problems so to play through injury and influence games in the way he did was very impressive."

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"In terms of the South Australian midfield, Toumpas is the pick of the bunch and should be the second midfielder taken after Whitfield. A stand out performance in the SANFL finals series last year really announced Toumpas to the AFL world and he has continued from there. He is a very different player to Chad Wingard who was the first South Australian picked last year, but Jimmy is just as good in my eyes. Like Grundy, significant game time in the SANFL seniors has prepared him for AFL football and he'll be able to play Round 1 next year - and more than likely, he'll perform better than a lot of his teammates straight away. He is a genuine ball winning midfielder, and not only that, but he makes every disposal count. Playing through injury this year for SA, he was still named All Australian in the U18 Championships and really showed his natural skills and leadership in a game playing across half back. Oh, and did I mention he can go forward too? AFL Comparison: Jimmy Bartel."

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"I love this kid. Just an out and out footballer who shows terrific smarts and ball reading. Very adaptable player who might play back early but will go into the middle in a year or two. I think he would be ready to go pretty early. Has absolutely dominated National Champs and has shown some excellent SANFL form over last 2 years including being a part of the seniors sides premiership last year. Is just a really neat and classy player who has terrific skills inside or outside the contest. Has had some issues with his hip but he is expected to fine. Fine leader as well and has a bit of the Luke Hodge’s about him."

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"I watched Toumpas at the Champs last year and thought he was a nice but not great talent. That opinion changed though when I watched a couple of his games in the SANFL finals last year. He was fantastic in senior company and was an important player in the WWT premiership team. Suddenly this was a kid I could see being a star at AFL level. Last year he played mostly as a winger/flanker and his running ability was a feature. He worked extremely hard and covered a mass of ground for a 17 year old. He has added a few more strings to his bow this year and should end up being a good all-round midfielder capable of winning his own ball on the inside and then spreading very well to receive on the outside."

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"In stature and in qualities, he and Whitfield are very similar. Covers the ground extremely well as an outside midfielder, but is also capable of playing the inside role. Has a wonderful kick, and has poise like no other. Toumpas had a great Championships this year, so his form justifies his position at 2. He is far more explosive and quick than anyone else in this draft. Certainly a joy to watch, as he just takes the game by the throat when it’s needed. Can see him becoming the kind of player who dominates finals. Toumpas’ biggest asset is his run and carry game. Can run 50 metres, drill a long pass, then runs 100 metres to get back to defend when the ball is turned over."

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I'll leave it there, Picket, but I hope you appreciate that Toumpas is also very capable of winning contested footy, but has the beauty of being able to hurt teams on the outside with his pace, endurance and kicking skills. He's exactly what we need. Many observers liken him to Whitfield, and nearly all consider him the standout pick 2 in the draft.

Yes, toumpas sounds good, but we need unabashed animals who have a taste for dominance and destroying the opposition, physically, spiritually and mentally.

From all reports, wines seem like he is another Dustin Martin or ben cousins.

Toumpas just like Gibbs, may end up being a soft [censored].

At least we know wines plays like a demon.

We should weigh up there strengths and put a priority on hardness and desire to win.

From all reports, wines seem like he is another Dustin Martin or ben cousins.

Cousins is a terrible example. He's nothing like Cousins.

And I'm not sure there's any decent comparison with Martin. Martin isn't an inside mid, but he does have explosive power and is a very good kick. Martin ran 2.89 seconds over 20 metres at DC, which puts him around top 10% for speed. Wines speed is OK, but not elite and he's an inside mid with just an OK kick.

You clearly have no idea about Toumpas the player and have never seen him play.

Let me help. Here are some comments about Toumpas from people that have:

"Really damaging player with some versatility. Can take over and influence games as well as just about anyone in this draft and throughout the u18 champs for bursts really imposed himself on games which was impressive. Skill level excellent by both hand and foot, has that combination of hurt factor and clean ball use that will make him a big time weapon. Consistently good decision maker. High level athlete and has that combination of explosive speed and agility that will make him desirable as well as in game work rate. Endurance excellent. Also has shown very early on that he can lift for the big games which is I strongly believe is something that he will take with him to AFL level. Can play as a midfielder, forward or back which is a big advantage but long term will no doubt develop into a midfielder. Has the ability to play both as an inside and outside midfielder. One important note with Toumpas is that throughout the u18 champs he was playing with hip problems so to play through injury and influence games in the way he did was very impressive."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"In terms of the South Australian midfield, Toumpas is the pick of the bunch and should be the second midfielder taken after Whitfield. A stand out performance in the SANFL finals series last year really announced Toumpas to the AFL world and he has continued from there. He is a very different player to Chad Wingard who was the first South Australian picked last year, but Jimmy is just as good in my eyes. Like Grundy, significant game time in the SANFL seniors has prepared him for AFL football and he'll be able to play Round 1 next year - and more than likely, he'll perform better than a lot of his teammates straight away. He is a genuine ball winning midfielder, and not only that, but he makes every disposal count. Playing through injury this year for SA, he was still named All Australian in the U18 Championships and really showed his natural skills and leadership in a game playing across half back. Oh, and did I mention he can go forward too? AFL Comparison: Jimmy Bartel."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I love this kid. Just an out and out footballer who shows terrific smarts and ball reading. Very adaptable player who might play back early but will go into the middle in a year or two. I think he would be ready to go pretty early. Has absolutely dominated National Champs and has shown some excellent SANFL form over last 2 years including being a part of the seniors sides premiership last year. Is just a really neat and classy player who has terrific skills inside or outside the contest. Has had some issues with his hip but he is expected to fine. Fine leader as well and has a bit of the Luke Hodge's about him."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I watched Toumpas at the Champs last year and thought he was a nice but not great talent. That opinion changed though when I watched a couple of his games in the SANFL finals last year. He was fantastic in senior company and was an important player in the WWT premiership team. Suddenly this was a kid I could see being a star at AFL level. Last year he played mostly as a winger/flanker and his running ability was a feature. He worked extremely hard and covered a mass of ground for a 17 year old. He has added a few more strings to his bow this year and should end up being a good all-round midfielder capable of winning his own ball on the inside and then spreading very well to receive on the outside."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"In stature and in qualities, he and Whitfield are very similar. Covers the ground extremely well as an outside midfielder, but is also capable of playing the inside role. Has a wonderful kick, and has poise like no other. Toumpas had a great Championships this year, so his form justifies his position at 2. He is far more explosive and quick than anyone else in this draft. Certainly a joy to watch, as he just takes the game by the throat when it's needed. Can see him becoming the kind of player who dominates finals. Toumpas' biggest asset is his run and carry game. Can run 50 metres, drill a long pass, then runs 100 metres to get back to defend when the ball is turned over."

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I'll leave it there, Picket, but I hope you appreciate that Toumpas is also very capable of winning contested footy, but has the beauty of being able to hurt teams on the outside with his pace, endurance and kicking skills. He's exactly what we need. Many observers liken him to Whitfield, and nearly all consider him the standout pick 2 in the draft.

Dodgy Hips ( didn't test)

And Strong "Go Home factor"

"CAVEAT EMPTOR"

I'll leave it there Mr. Hur!

Dodgy Hips ( didn't test)

And Strong "Go Home factor"

"CAVEAT EMPTOR"

I'll leave it there Mr. Hur!

Where does it say anything about a strong go home factor?

Also, the surgery he had on his hips is not a big deal. I had the same operation 2 years ago and then ran a marathon 6 months later (which included 3 months of training). Plus I played a full season of footy straight afterwards.

You don't know what you are talking about.

You'd never pass on a player just on "go home factor". Last year we had at least 10 (I stopped counting) players who came from outside Victoria who had "go home" options and how many took that path? Zip. There are literally hundreds of players in the system listed by clubs outside their native state and there's probably one case every two years or so of a player cracking the sads in this manner. Even if the kids are homesick after the first year or two, suddenly they make friends, establish working relationships, meet a young woman and so forth, and suddenly life in the new city doesn't seem so bad after all.

If Toumpas is the best player available (and if he's available at all, being the best will be a given I'd have thought) then it'd be ridiculous to pass him up.

Dodgy Hips ( didn't test)

And Strong "Go Home factor"

"CAVEAT EMPTOR"

I'll leave it there Mr. Hur!

The go home factor is not such a big issue, particularly for a player like Toumpas. Worst case is unless we sign a stupid deal like the Tippett one is rumoured to be then Toumpas will have good currency and we would demand a high pick and or player for him... Besides we will be a club on the rise and he will be a part of something special at Melbourne, why would he want to go home?

If he's available we should pick him, he is already a proven player in senior company with a premiership medallion to show for it.

The go home factor is not such a big issue, particularly for a player like Toumpas. Worst case is unless we sign a stupid deal like the Tippett one is rumoured to be then Toumpas will have good currency and we would demand a high pick and or player for him... Besides we will be a club on the rise and he will be a part of something special at Melbourne, why would he want to go home?

If he's available we should pick him, he is already a proven player in senior company with a premiership medallion to show for it.

Another reason the go home factor is not so important in this case is that "home" is Adelaide .

Viney ,Jamar ,Sellars ,Tapscott ,Trengove dont seem to be in any rush to return .

Tippett was so desperate to leave he made them write in a special exit clause for him .

Go home factor

Bah, humbug ... the last time we had a high first pick in the draft, he was a local kid who signed up with an interstate club half an hour after he arrived at the airport ... and he was only there to have "a look around".

If anyone from SA should have had a "go home factor" it is Matthew Pavlich. By staying at a perceived basket case he's shown that the "go home factor" is largely irrelevant It happens, but if you're a good club - and Freo wasn't - it's unlikely.

It's pretty rare for a good player to want to go home. I actually find it pretty insulting to most good players, as they rarely want to leave their club.

If anyone from SA should have had a "go home factor" it is Matthew Pavlich. By staying at a perceived basket case he's shown that the "go home factor" is largely irrelevant It happens, but if you're a good club - and Freo wasn't - it's unlikely.

It's pretty rare for a good player to want to go home. I actually find it pretty insulting to most good players, as they rarely want to leave their club.

Beat me to it 'Ben', just about to post the same re Pav.