The players are killing two coaches.

They hold the responsibility for their own performances.

Some are letting them off the hook.

The players that should be doing more are doing less than they ever have.

And we pay for it.

In more ways than one.

rpfc that is a very wide post(by wide i mean you dont pin point what you want the players to do) i believe the players are trying to do what the coaches tell them, but are deviating at the specific plan they are practising at that moment, this is where i believe the problem lies, the coach wants to treat this 2 hours as a training run, and the senior players try and stick to it to a degree but they are senior players and have seen a game or two and see a chance to attack or maybe a better way to put it is see a better option away from the structure and deviate from it. so as a supporter we have two options, do we support the senior player seeing a different option and taking it(sometimes for the better sometimes not) or do we support the coach trying to teach the basics of what he believes will take us forward.(contested football, contested marking and so forth, and I dont believe this is his grand plan to just kick along the boundry and hope, I think he is trying to build, like i have said, the game is being used as a training run.)

edit: auto correct spelling.

hardnut I'm not trying to get into an argument but what don't you think is right about the learning process, we get to watch 2 hours a week and it seems to me that this 2 hours a week is the most important to us (supporters) but the the coaching staff and conditioning staff it just seems like another chance to train on something else, a few weeks ago I saw Dunn try and pass the ball on a 45 degree angle from the boundry to just outside the 50, it got cut off and didn't work out, but I saw neeld go nuts and pulled him off the ground, spoke to someone's brother who plays for the club and it got brought up during the review of the game, now you might think thats normal because he didnt stick to structure (and by memory it got rebounded and cost a goal), but another player (former leadership group) did a similar thing and it ended up being a goal to us, yet neeld brought this up in the review as well and apparently was as dissapointed with this as he was with Lynden's. This tells me Neeld doesn't want offensive moves just yet.

Sorry to ramble on again i was getting at the point that there is a plan I just dont know if its the right way to teach it and was hoping to get your thoughts on the way you think we should approach it.

edit spelling again, changed did to didn't.

Whew! How long have you got to discuss this - it can't be answered in a few words here and I don't pretend to be a coach!

I understand the point you are making, but the 2 hours a week we see as supporters are definitely not just another 2 hours training for the coaching staff - if it was they would be out of a job very quickly - their passionate aim is to win!

I don't think you can draw your conclusion about Neeld not wanting offensive moves just yet based on the information you have supplied - I would be surprised and disappointed if he did not have an attack plan. In fact, the information you have given would indicate that Neeld wants a strict, structured playing style which could treat players as robots and discourage them from a more natural game. Having said that, I also don't believe in Neeld's apparent emphasis on the boundary line defensive style of football (the Collingwood approach) as I have stated elsewhere. In very simple terms, I believe a better portent for the future (and given MFC's playing list) would be the attacking style of play followed by several clubs such as Geelong, Essendon, Richmond, Adelaide, etc etc.

The key point is to let players play natural football, which is to attack and score goals, and then finetune their play to deal with defensive structures (keeping in mind that attack is the best defence - General G S Patton comes to mind).

Hope this gives you some insight into my thinking for what it is worth!

The players are killing two coaches.

They hold the responsibility for their own performances.

Some are letting them off the hook.

The players that should be doing more are doing less than they ever have.

And we pay for it.

In more ways than one.

Perhaps two coaches have killed a potentially very good playing list rpfc?

Perhaps coaches hold responsibility for their own performances?

It is a coach's job and responsibility to bring a team together - not the reverse!

'The buck stops here' ring a bell!

Whew! How long have you got to discuss this - it can't be answered in a few words here and I don't pretend to be a coach!

I understand the point you are making, but the 2 hours a week we see as supporters are definitely not just another 2 hours training for the coaching staff - if it was they would be out of a job very quickly - their passionate aim is to win!

I don't think you can draw your conclusion about Neeld not wanting offensive moves just yet based on the information you have supplied - I would be surprised and disappointed if he did not have an attack plan. In fact, the information you have given would indicate that Neeld wants a strict, structured playing style which could treat players as robots and discourage them from a more natural game. Having said that, I also don't believe in Neeld's apparent emphasis on the boundary line defensive style of football (the Collingwood approach) as I have stated elsewhere. In very simple terms, I believe a better portent for the future (and given MFC's playing list) would be the attacking style of play followed by several clubs such as Geelong, Essendon, Richmond, Adelaide, etc etc.

The key point is to let players play natural football, which is to attack and score goals, and then finetune their play to deal with defensive structures (keeping in mind that attack is the best defence - General G S Patton comes to mind).

Hope this gives you some insight into my thinking for what it is worth!

you make some excellent points with with the coaches passion to win games, after my conversation with a players brother (you can take with a grain of salt because i am not friends with this family just friends of friends and all ended up at a table one night but had a good conversation and didnt seem the bs'ing type), i just left the conversation feeling like yes, he has passion and wants to win, but got the feeling the club would prefer losing, i dont know how to put this but to generalise it lose playing hard then win playing soft and will sacrifice wins now for a competitive game later. if you look at carlton everyone called them soft or down hill then they got judd and he started playing inside hard football(more then he did at the eagles) and it rubbed off a little bit on the rest of the group, but you still cant say their hard like the hawks, so lets hope neeld can turn this team into the contested hard team he wants, then let the natural attacking flair that we've already seen from the players come out, other wise in a few years we'll be having this conversation about another coach and another group of new young high draftees.

p.s nice to actually have a football conversation with someone on here rather then the normal harassment that some posters put people through.

Perhaps two coaches have killed a potentially very good playing list rpfc?

Perhaps coaches hold responsibility for their own performances?

It is a coach's job and responsibility to bring a team together - not the reverse!

'The buck stops here' ring a bell!

Sooner or later the buck has to come back to Neeld and co. We're basically the same team that won 8 games last year. If he wasnt before tonight then pretty soon he's going to be coaching for his future....we just CANT be playing like this week in and week out without some serious questions. If he's going to be a great coach then he's going to somehow find a way through this and get them playing like a football team again. If he's going to keep treading the path he's treading he wont be there next year. Im no longer sure what result I want re neelds tenure.

Good game. Well done everybody.

Awesome.

Here's one positive. Watching the 3rd quarter Bombers & Tigers, its clear we made the right decision with Brad Miller. Not worth two [censored]'s of goat sh!t.

Because after what we witnessed that is the most important factor here........

I think a lot of people need to take a step back and a few deep breaths here. Yes, this is a bad result, but I honestly don't care. This season is a wash. It was always going to be a wash. Neeld has signaled this from the moment he took over and we have seen more than enough from the coaching staff since then to back it up. This year is not about winning football games. It's always been about assessing the playing group, finding out who will be able to play the way Neeld wants and who is dead wood, and working on their strength and fitness. Even the article on Misson this week supports this. They are doing heavy drills midweek when most clubs let the players rest a bit. He said in that article that next pre-season they'll be able to run these sort of drills in January rather than during the season.

We need to accept a few things about this year. We are going to be pretty bad. We are going to see some odd things as Neeld puts his players to the test. We are certainly going to see a cull at the end of the season. By my count we'll probably turn over about a fifth of the list. Once these things happen we will have a group who have had a year to get their heads around the plan and a year of physical conditioning to allow them to pull it off.

I would ask you all to have a look at West Coast playing in 2010. Four years after winning a flag they finished last, with genuine stars still on their playing list. There were calls for the coaches head, oddly enough, but the board kept faith and look where they are now. They took a risk and overhauled their gameplan so that they could compete with the big guns of the modern era. They swallowed the short term pain, made the right decision and are now sitting at the top end of the ladder again, challenging for a top four spot. We need to do the same. Understand what Neeld is trying to achieve, support the club and hope that the plan is going to work.

For those that caught the Foxtel coverage , our friend Paul Roos even can't believe that we have players of All Australian quality, a gun recruit & proven match winners in yrs past, how we can possibly serve this up. He was constantly eluding to the fact that the players weren't accounting to their roles of one on one game plan and players weren't backing each other up... I think Neeld may have [censored] us over with structure and defense that someone needs to tell this Dictator to revert to Game Plan 2 get it out of the middle 1st & foremost then. ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK & renounce the captaincy now kids and give Nathan Jones the reigns. Clearly the kids are not up to it !! For stuff sake coaching committee, just admit the error and hand the reigns to Experience now, Jesus ....

I think a lot of people need to take a step back and a few deep breaths here. Yes, this is a bad result, but I honestly don't care. This season is a wash. It was always going to be a wash. Neeld has signaled this from the moment he took over and we have seen more than enough from the coaching staff since then to back it up. This year is not about winning football games. It's always been about assessing the playing group, finding out who will be able to play the way Neeld wants and who is dead wood, and working on their strength and fitness. Even the article on Misson this week supports this. They are doing heavy drills midweek when most clubs let the players rest a bit. He said in that article that next pre-season they'll be able to run these sort of drills in January rather than during the season.

We need to accept a few things about this year. We are going to be pretty bad. We are going to see some odd things as Neeld puts his players to the test. We are certainly going to see a cull at the end of the season. By my count we'll probably turn over about a fifth of the list. Once these things happen we will have a group who have had a year to get their heads around the plan and a year of physical conditioning to allow them to pull it off.

I would ask you all to have a look at West Coast playing in 2010. Four years after winning a flag they finished last, with genuine stars still on their playing list. There were calls for the coaches head, oddly enough, but the board kept faith and look where they are now. They took a risk and overhauled their gameplan so that they could compete with the big guns of the modern era. They swallowed the short term pain, made the right decision and are now sitting at the top end of the ladder again, challenging for a top four spot. We need to do the same. Understand what Neeld is trying to achieve, support the club and hope that the plan is going to work.

I find these comparisons to Hawks 2005, Richmond 2010 and Eagles 2010, a bit underwhelming, inaccurate and misleading. Not only are we performing a lot worse than they have (go check the stats yourself!) so far this year, 2 drubbings over 100 pts after only 8 rounds. Eagles 2010 lost quite a few by under 10 pts that year, Tiges once got belted by over 100 pts. If we escape with 4 wins this year that will be a fair miracle!

I just hope that there is due dilligence up the top end, that they review the clubs business plan or success roadmap and there KPIs are thought through to sort out this mess. A decent backup plan would help too. Any more 100pt losses this year will be bad for Neeld. This seriously indicates not turning up at the ground doesn't matter how much you window dress it. This playing group needs to play like there is no tomorrow and have their 'line in the sand' game. How can you learn to win if you never win. Winning ugly is better than not winning at all. As Barass used to say... practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. Winning needs winning. ...der.... but first show up at the ground ffs

The playing list has changed considerably over 5 years rpfc (and Neeld has had longer than 2 months) - but this is the crux of the matter. It is easy to blame the players rather than face the tougher questions of who really holds the responsibility.

It's the players, because they're the ones who run onto the field each week. Roos was spot on with his comments in this regard. Especially the "senior" players. Unaccountable. Just not prepared to do the hard things. Unless they feel like it.

They're shell-shocked, they're confused, their (self) confidence is shot. Howe takes mark of the year .. and then doesn't know what to do with the ball. Handballs to Morton under pressure, turnover.

I feel sorry for the likes of Tom McDonald, when the ball is coming in 70 odd times a game because of problems further up the field.

Perhaps two coaches have killed a potentially very good playing list rpfc?

Perhaps coaches hold responsibility for their own performances?

It is a coach's job and responsibility to bring a team together - not the reverse!

'The buck stops here' ring a bell!

Spot on Hardnut.... The New Messiah arrives, and in the highly celebrated straightshooting style tells everyone they are [censored], both in private and in the press. Moves on to sack all of the experienced players of the leadership group regardless of how they'd been travelling, appoints a handful of kids.

If we were looking for engagement of a playing groups in changing our culture I reckon the mark was missed...... and before we get to the bit where a set of Demonland posters jump in to say all the players should be honoured to be offered a game for the MFC and shouldnt need motivation, bear in mind the coaches and FD are paid to get the team operating as a team... THAT IS THEIR JOB

I agree Seaman simple footy the game plan isnt working change the plan simplify the process win the middle and play footy cant be worse than it is now!

Oh dear! Eight games in and, for the first time this season (believe it or not) I'm pretty disappointed with our performance. That might sound mad but up until now, I could see that there had been week-on-week progress. This week, no such luck. Perhaps it was an unrealistic expectation.

I will no doubt get over it by tomorrow but I think Neeld has to continually demonstrate that there is light at the end of the tunnel and, most importantly, that the tunnel isn't too long. And before someone else says it, that the light isn't on the front of a train coming our way. A strong positive was that it wasn't on free to air TV so not everyone at work will have watched it.

Unfortunately it was on TV interstate, in all its shameful detail.

Morton's effort when Jetta tackled him has not received enough attention I believe. I wouldn't be surprised if it is why he was taken out of the game.

Read Matthew Lloyd's article on the Crows in today's Sunday Age Sport section - very interesting!

Forget 0-11 we could be 0-22 the way we are going. We will be lucky to beat gws and GC.

Aint footy fun!!!!!!!

We are no chance of winning a game this year.........this club is on its last legs.....

From the outside looking in, it would appear that Neeld has treated alot of players with little respect. Now they are returning the favour. The club is in crisis mode.

Do they honestly deserve any respect?

Regardless of whether you buy into the 'rebuild' plan for this year or not I think we all have to agree that Neeld is not a good manager. The players don't respect him with their effort because I don't think he respects them. Look at how condescending he was to Mitch Clark in the presser after the Geelong game. He's one of 2 players that are commanding of respect on the entire list!

Look at how Richmond players look at Hardwick or Essendon players look at Hird. Both coaches are a part of the team. Ditto the Scott brothers. Neeld is our teacher, our disciplinarian. When things fall apart they fall apart quickly because they feel like they'll be in 'trouble' anyway.

I hope he's a master coach because as a manager of people he's proven to be terrible.

Perhaps two coaches have killed a potentially very good playing list rpfc?

Perhaps coaches hold responsibility for their own performances?

It is a coach's job and responsibility to bring a team together - not the reverse!

'The buck stops here' ring a bell!

The coaches may have lost the players, but it's the players that lost the supporters....

Sooner or later the buck has to come back to Neeld and co. We're basically the same team that won 8 games last year.

i don't understand why people keep saying this, none of those wins were against anything but easybeats. We were mostly absolute rubbish last year, and folded like a pack of cards whenever real pressure was applied - including the worst loss in the club's history.

I also don't accept the "same team" line. Scully and Gysberts both played important roles in most of the wins you refer to, Green and Davey are obviously on the way out (age catching up with them), Jurrah (also an important contributor in the wins) has been injured etc, Sylvia has been out and/or playing, but with no pre-season has Buckley's of making any real impact, Martin has been injured etc. etc. We're missing a number of the key performers from those wins, such as they were.

I was the match y'day....a couple of observations!

Aaron Davey is finished as an MFC footballer, should not be allowed back into red n blue. He looks disinterested and avoided body for the majority of the match.

Colin Sylvia was not much better, there was zero effort unless the ball was coming onto his chest. His body language was deplorable.

To the Watts bashers! Were any of you at the match? He made a few mistakes, agreed, but he willed himself to the contest and reads the play beautifully. A few of his mistakes were simply because none of his team mates demanded the ball or made space for him to kick it to. There was sweet FA movement in front of him the whole match.

I went with my Brother, a Swans fan. He didn't think the Swans played particularly well at all, we simply did not apply any pressure whatsoever and as a result the Swans looked like millionaires.

Trengove surely must be injured, he also looks completely out of depth as a Captain.

If we play with that sort of intensity against GC and GWS, we will lose!

I was surprised by the turnout of Dees supporters and it was crying shame that bar Howes hanger, thy had nothing to cheer about all night, and as a result I'm sure it sounded like there were no Dees fans at all. Great effort for those those that made the trip, only to watch the MFC come unglued.

Howes hanger will go down as one of the greatest ever....nice to say I was there to witness it!

Perhaps two coaches have killed a potentially very good playing list rpfc?

Perhaps coaches hold responsibility for their own performances?

It is a coach's job and responsibility to bring a team together - not the reverse!

'The buck stops here' ring a bell!

If you think that we have a very good playing list, you have got to be kidding.

And a coach can't use the 'potential' in the group if it is 'potential' can he?

Your current performances are dictated by your senior players being fit and firing - ours are MIA and we are paying for it.

And of course the buck 'stops' at the coach, but after two months in charge I think the 'buck' is still making his way to him...

I thought that was a disgusting performance for so many reasons.

But most of all the lack of effort was just astonishing. The O'Keefe mark in the second, the Parker mark in the third, Josh Kennedy winning the ball, standing up and running away with no one touching him, the free Swans players on the move all night. The list goes on.

At the end of the day all you can hope is for an honest performance from the players. Last night they were dishonest and it makes you absolutely furious with them.

Then there's the schoolboy errors. Jones handballing to a Swan in the goal square. Frawley bombing it in to the forward line with no one around. Repeated bombing in high to Davey four on one. Not having a big on the goal line to touch the ball from a Swans set shot nor one to shepherd through Magner's shot at the other end.

From a professional AFL team it is just disgraceful to see these types of mistakes.

As for the senior players, I think Davey and Green are trying, it's just that their best footy is well behind them. They look to be on their last legs. Davey has lost his breakneck pace and without this he doesn't have much to offer the side as a small forward. Green just can't get free like he used to. I guess it is difficult to play in the forward line in a side that gets it in 35 times a game, with most of those entries being haphazard.

Sylvia and Moloney, though, are a different story. Their efforts have been pathetic this season. They are playing so far below their ability and are currently giving nothing to the side. At one stage I saw Moloney pointing for Watts to go somewhere, while Moloney was trailing another Swan by about 10 metres. The Swan was running into space and looking for a handball receive. Moloney just jogged behind and the Swans player got the ball and ran away. Stop pointing Beamer and man up yourself!

The good news?

I thought Blease was great, Wasn't it nice to see a Demon with some speed and a willingness to take the game on.

The other positive is that by virtue of being horrendous we will have some high picks in a talent-laden draft. I still believe it can turn quicker than people think but we MUST draft extremely well and pick up some elite midfielders. I'm sick of watching our current plodding midfield run around getting torn a new one each week.