Moloney, Jones, Sylvia, Frawley and Clarke

[stuie 7,374]

Get your head out of the sand Stuie...he aint that good.

Mate, not saying he's an A grade midfielder, just don't see why some posters here feel the need to go wayyyyy over the top to bag the guy

[DemonWA 3,934]

Trade Moloney while he has any currency,

Who would we get for Moloney or Syliva? My guess - b grade midfielder who would go missing without having class around him.

Everyone wants/unfairly expects Moloney to do for us what Ablett does for gold coast or Judd does for carlton - find the footy, leads from the front and drags their team along with them. Theres only a handful of players in the comp that can do that, and we'd have to trade moloney & Sylvia to get them

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

Mate, not saying he's an A grade midfielder, just don't see why some posters here feel the need to go wayyyyy over the top to bag the guy

Who is going way over the top?

After 7 years of waiting for that game....i now know it aint going to happen.

Now we all want the club to recruit young midfielders at years end right.....

I do not want Beamer to teach them. His days are numbered.

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

Everyone wants/unfairly expects Moloney to do for us what Ablett does for gold coast or Judd does for carlton - find the footy, leads from the front and drags their team along with them. Theres only a handful of players in the comp that can do that, and we'd have to trade moloney & Sylvia to get them

DO IT. Trade 'em both to get some Gold. By god we need it.

[Guest strawberry_gumdrops]

Molony to GWS in return for a promise not to bid on Viney. Done.

Hold onto Sylvia as it still might click- if it doesn't trade him next year. Has talent but unless he can show it more often he is of no use to us. He is cream on top and seeing as we don't have the cake maybe another team will jump.

We know we need a rebuild- this will help our team and our culture rebuild. A necessary act on our behalf. If the playing group don't realise you need to pull out the finger after this they never will.

[Viney12 196]

Your post was generally supportive of Brent but you are killing him kindly with compliments:

- 12 months of exposed form isn't long enough to form judgements? It's a long time.

- "GENERALLY poor against the better teams LAST YEAR" used in support of Brent...

- Going back to the 2010 QB game and the years 2010 and 2009 for evidence of consistent performance...

I agree that he can give more, that is why he gets so much attention and criticism. It would be worse if we weren't talking about him.

The way that we have a seeming indifference to the disappearance of the pre-2011 Brad Green - and how very few expect more from him.

My point was that Brent's ENTIRE career is being viewed as the last 12 months. Brent has not always struggled against good teams.

He's being called lazy etc. by a lot of people, which I think is completely unfair based on his career.

Hence my comment re 2009 / 2010 he was very good despite the fact we were very bad.

I used QB 2010 as it was a game where he dominated against the eventual premier (just checked stats, 38 touches, 7 tackles).

You say I had to go back to 2009 / 2010?? Because my point being that everyone is defining his career on 2011 as being always a down hill skiier.

Well he wasn't a down hill skiier when we were at our absolute worst in '09 / '10

Here's Brent's career stats

Yes stats dont paint the whole picture, but they give some idea

It's an undeniable fact Brent struggled at times against top teams last year - newsflash though - all players did

That tells me that he may in fact be a barometer

Reality is, he was top 10 in the brownlow and won our BnF

[DemonWA 3,934]

DO IT. Trade 'em both to get some Gold. By god we need it.

I mean BOTH as part of the same trade and even still i cant see it happening.

Us: Hey Brisbane, we'll trade you sylvia and moloney for Black and Rockliff?

Brisbane: No thanks

Us: Hey freo, we'll trade you Syliva and Moloney for Fyfe

Freo: No thanks

US: Hey Richmond, we'll trade you Syliva and Moloney for Cotchin

Richmond: we'll give you matt white and Sean Grigg

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

I mean BOTH as part of the same trade and even still i cant see it happening.

Us: Hey Brisbane, we'll trade you sylvia and moloney for Black and Rockliff?

Brisbane: No thanks

Us: Hey freo, we'll trade you Syliva and Moloney for Fyfe

Freo: No thanks

US: Hey Richmond, we'll trade you Syliva and Moloney for Cotchin

Richmond: we'll give you matt white and Sean Grigg

I know what you mean. Trade them as a package with a draft pick. This club must recruit Gold otherwise we will die.

[DemonWA 3,934]

I know what you mean. Trade them as a package with a draft pick. This club must recruit Gold otherwise we will die.

Who though? Name the player we should go after? I bet we couldnt get them with what we're offering.

We might be able to get a young gun for them but we've got plenty of them and show time and time again that it doesnt help us.

[Guest strawberry_gumdrops]

Guys, packages don't work. Clubs see through them. One NQR plus another isn't a good trade.

GWS will be screaming for big bodies- we can give them one and all they have to do is NOT call out a name at F/S bidding. I believe GC will finish above us so they are a non issue.

If GWS agree to this, which they should- we are essentially trading Moloney and a second round pick for pick 2 and Viney. Deal of the century? I think so!

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

Who though? Name the player we should go after? I bet we couldnt get them with what we're offering.

We might be able to get a young gun for them but we've got plenty of them and show time and time again that it doesnt help us.

Well if you don't think we can attract any worthy Gold with the above deal then it is time to turn out the lights and lock the front door.

We already blew one chance with the Brock Mclean deal. No offence to Gys here, but we should have targetted mature bodies with that pick. Don't start me on Jack Darling.

Wayne Carey rates him the number one gun in the AFL....so frustrating. The EXACT player we needed.

2 bad mistakes in a ruthless world. How many can one club make??

Edited May 7, 2012 by why you little

[Guest strawberry_gumdrops]

WYL sidesteps a question whilst sticking the boots into recruitment department, the club and Gysberts. We call that a quadruple whammy!

Get over Darling, support the Gys decision (as we needed midfielders) and perhaps go for the head recruiting job at Melbourne while your at it because obviously they make too many mistakes and you know better.

[stuie 7,374]

Guys, packages don't work. Clubs see through them. One NQR plus another isn't a good trade.

GWS will be screaming for big bodies- we can give them one and all they have to do is NOT call out a name at F/S bidding. I believe GC will finish above us so they are a non issue.

If GWS agree to this, which they should- we are essentially trading Moloney and a second round pick for pick 2 and Viney. Deal of the century? I think so!

Trade one of our very few hard bodied senior players for an agreement from GWS not to draft Viney before us? Wow, just... wow.... Drugs are bad mkay.

[Guest José Mourinho]

Yelling and pointing the finger at others is marshalling the troops IMO.

Not when you're monumentally failing in your role yourself.

[Guest strawberry_gumdrops]

Trade one of our very few hard bodied senior players for an agreement from GWS not to draft Viney before us? Wow, just... wow.... Drugs are bad mkay.

Now if he was throwing that weight around I'd agree with you...

[rpfc 28,482]

Yes stats dont paint the whole picture, but they give some idea

It's an undeniable fact Brent struggled at times against top teams last year - newsflash though - all players did

That tells me that he may in fact be a barometer

Reality is, he was top 10 in the brownlow and won our BnF

The term barometer is so misleading - we were not losing games in 2011 because of Moloney not finding it 9 times less than in wins, and we were not losing games in 2010 because Moloney found it 5.7 times less than in wins/draws (BTW - out of the four games he missed in 2010 - we won 3).

If we lost a game - Moloney would be one of the culprits, not leading the way.

The finish in the Brownlow is misleading - does anyone think that he is a top 10 player, or even midfielder, in the AFL?

He is an elite clearance player who is inconsistent and struggles against better teams.

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

WYL sidesteps a question whilst sticking the boots into recruitment department, the club and Gysberts. We call that a quadruple whammy!

Get over Darling, support the Gys decision (as we needed midfielders) and perhaps go for the head recruiting job at Melbourne while your at it because obviously they make too many mistakes and you know better.

Who is blaming Jordan Gysberts? He did not recruit himself.

But did the MFC recruit what it needs?

I am not side stepping anything. I am looking at what is out there and developed in front of our eyes whilst our list has gone backwards.

Sorry if that disturbs you.

[Guest José Mourinho]

Now if he was throwing that weight around I'd agree with you...

Yes, possessing a mature body and a mature mind is helpful to the side... when you use them.

[Guest José Mourinho]

The term barometer is so misleading - we were not losing games in 2011 because of Moloney not finding it 9 times less than in wins, and we were not losing games in 2010 because Moloney found it 5.7 times less than in wins/draws (BTW - out of the four games he missed in 2010 - we won 3).

If we lost a game - Moloney would be one of the culprits, not leading the way.

The finish in the Brownlow is misleading - does anyone think that he is a top 10 player, or even midfielder, in the AFL?

He is an elite clearance player who is inconsistent and struggles against better teams.

And winning clearances, while helpful when he is doing it, is NOT the be all and end all.

There's a lot more to footy, and that's where he is lacking.

[Range Rover 1,935]

Colin Sylvia reminds me of that scene at the start of Moneyball where Billy Beane is sitting around with a bunch of club 'yes men' who keep harping on about the amazing potential a certain player has and how he's such a great hitter and so on ....

Finally, Beane breaks into the conversation and says ... "If he's such a good hitter why doesn't he hit good?".

Silence.

[Viney12 196]

The term barometer is so misleading - we were not losing games in 2011 because of Moloney not finding it 9 times less than in wins, and we were not losing games in 2010 because Moloney found it 5.7 times less than in wins/draws (BTW - out of the four games he missed in 2010 - we won 3).

If we lost a game - Moloney would be one of the culprits, not leading the way.

The finish in the Brownlow is misleading - does anyone think that he is a top 10 player, or even midfielder, in the AFL?

He is an elite clearance player who is inconsistent and struggles against better teams.

At times yes, other times no

The reality is in the last few years, when we've won, they all look great. When we lose, they all look bad

It's like supporting Jekyll and Hyde

However, he's had plenty of good games in losses over the last few years

Gets plenty of touches, plenty of clearances, plenty of tackles.

There were a few noteable down performances last year when we were getting smashed by top 4 teams, and everyone is hanging Moloney's career on these

He had

27 touches, 7 tackles against the Swans last year (draw)

25 touches, 7 tackles against the Saints last year (loss)

35 touches, 9 tackles against Port last year (loss)

25 touches, 6 tackles against Richmond last year (loss)

25 touches, 7 tackles against Collingwood last year (loss)

2010 he had

38 touches, 7 tackles against collingwood (draw) - eventual premiers

27 touches, 7 tackles against carlton (loss)

22 touches, 6 tackles against hawthorn (loss)

24 touches, 6 tackles against collingwood (loss) - 1st game

In fact, of his 18 games in 2010 only 3 did he have under 20 touches and 1 was due to early injury

He played in 12 losses that year and was one of our more consistent and better performed in these matches

In 2009 of his 21 games he only dipped below 20 possessions on 4 occassions. He played in 17 losses that year and was one of our more consistent and better performed in these matches

[Key Deefender 143]

Despite the fact Moloney and Sylvia have both been around for years, under Neeld's tutelage it is too early a call for trade talk regarding these two. One a demoted leader certainly and the other an unfulfilled talent, but players can blossom under a new coach. Who do we trade for - even more draft picks and make our list, already crying out for more mature hard bodies even younger and more inexperienced? How Moloney is responding to his demotion will be having an impact internally and he has been regarded as a great clubman off-field to this point. A flat track bully perhaps, but until he is depth at best, he has a role to play.

Sylvia has had an interrupted pre-season and his season coming off a bad injury has only just begun. An inconsistent and overall a disappointing career to date, however under a new coach, his undoubted talents may still be realised. The tools are there. Again a strong body with some burst speed, and a thumping kick with potential to be a game changer should under a new coach be given a further opportunity to shine. He will never be a genuine leader but I think he still has some precocious unharnessed talent to unleash.

This is not to say either are indispensible, but I reckon they have this season to show the new coach they can play his way and shine - and it is still only upcoming Round 7 in a struggling team still learning the new way.

Our team is suffering badly due to a dearth of good leadership in the 25-30 age bracket. With Green and Davey flagging badly at this stage, we need the remainder to stand up. Trading for good leaders in this age bracket is not easy because they are either in their prime and giving their current club everything, and therefore likely unobtainable or over the odds unaffordable. Or they are borderline best 22, like Brad Miller was, and will add nothing on-field in terms of ability, although I do think Miller was a good leader off-field.

There are signs that some players are turning the corner under Neeld - Jones has been our most consistent player and has gone up a cog, Morton may be just starting to get it, even Matthew Bate, still no worldbeater, is a bit better this year than last in a different role. Neeld is making players earn their place and not gifting games which can be a challenge without making wholesale changes every week. Even Sylvia, straight into the ones sure, was still made to serve his club suspension after injury and was the sub in his first game back.

We are all impatient - but I don't think anyone's cards are marked yet and all still have the opportunity to show enough by season's end that they can operate under the Neeld mandate which is still well and truly in class.

And that includes Brent Moloney and Colin Sylvia.

[Viney12 196]

Agree Key Deefender, especially the part about the dearth of leadership

Brad Green is our most experienced player with 243 games, then Aaron Davey with 155

Green is looking like he's on his last legs, as is Davey, so if these 2 go at seasons end (may not happen, but possible) as well as Sylvia and Moloney, we'd be left with only 5 guys with 100+ games (as it stands right now)

We think we have experience and leadership issues now, imagine it if we threw all experienced players away

[Range Rover 1,935]

Agree Key Deefender, especially the part about the dearth of leadership

Brad Green is our most experienced player with 243 games, then Aaron Davey with 155

Green is looking like he's on his last legs, as is Davey, so if these 2 go at seasons end (may not happen, but possible) as well as Sylvia and Moloney, we'd be left with only 5 guys with 100+ games (as it stands right now)

We think we have experience and leadership issues now, imagine it if we threw all experienced players away

But those guys aren't leaders. That's why, at the ages of 26 and 27, they aren't in Neeld's leadership group.

And what good is 'experience' if that experience counts for naught in games that matter?

I like that Moneyball quote so much I'm making it my sig for a while.

Edited May 7, 2012 by Range Rover

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

Agree Key Deefender, especially the part about the dearth of leadership

Brad Green is our most experienced player with 243 games, then Aaron Davey with 155

Green is looking like he's on his last legs, as is Davey, so if these 2 go at seasons end (may not happen, but possible) as well as Sylvia and Moloney, we'd be left with only 5 guys with 100+ games (as it stands right now)

We think we have experience and leadership issues now, imagine it if we threw all experienced players away

Agreed. But what happens when these experienced players are teaching our kids bad habits or in some cases the wrong way to play?

Viscious circle has been created. We do need to recriut experience i have no doubt.