http://au.sports.yah...-woeful/?cmp=fb

You can always blame the players. But are they really that good to begin with?

It comes back to the people that chose them and Melbourne seem to consistently pick the same type of player; weak reeds like Jack Watts and Cale Morton.

It's a very bland group of players that they have right now, and it comes back to recruiting. And the recruiting has been shocking.

Here comes the bandwagon of hate!

Nothing wrong with this at all. It is the opinion of a clearly frustrated Melbourne supporter. I've seen exactly the same sentiments expressed here over the many seasons.

Still think he can be a very good player.

If that time ever comes he will be a free agent but that time will never come.

how can anyone say that - McLean, Sylvia, Watts, Morton, Trengove and Scully were all taken with the exact picks they were expected to be give or take a spot or two. It is obvious to me that most of these guys would have been stars at other clubs but our development SUCKS.

Brock is a massive star at Carlton.

Travis was a massive star at Brisbane....

Of all the clowns who have taken the chance to knife us this week (Malthouse, Matthews, Thomas, 15-year-old wankers across internet, our own fans) this is the first one I've agreed with. Doesn't mean they still can't be good players but where are the big bastards? That's why I don't care what we're paying Mitch Clark - at least they went out and got somebody who didn't weight 60kg soaking wet.

Trengove Grimes Watts Frawley Garland Clark Sylvia Jurrah Gysberts Bail Magner

Morton Blease Jamar Petterd Jones Howe Martin Mckenzie Strauss Tapscott Bartram

Throw in Viney and another quality mid in next years super draft stir in some good

Coaching and we still have the makings of a top 4 side

Well at least I think we do

Wow, this place is actually starting to get me down, and I'm usually a happy chappy!

Everyone passed on Darling, and our recruits have barely even had the chance to prove themselves to be duds with all the injury luck we've been having. What is the combined total number of games from all of our recruits over the last 3 years? It would be lucky to be 50 I reckon.

Still love coming to Demonland though. I am a masochist lol.

Anyone that say it is recruiting has rocks in his head. Just no understanding of modern day football.

I've read some of your posts that seemed quite sensible. I must have caught you on a good day.

So Fyfe who's shone from day one has been unbelievably 'developed' by Freo ? Rockliff, who was a star at junior level, but had to wait until the pre-season draft because the knock on him was that he was slow has been a revelation because of the coaches at Brisbane ? Dustin Martin who has played like a veteran since his first game has been developed by the Tiges even though he's surrounded by spuds ? So Joel Selwood has only been a revelation because of the players around him at Geelong even though a top 5 pick in Kane Tenace surrounded by the same players couldn't make it ? So former top five draft picks in Goddard, Murphy, Judd, Hodge, Franklin, Pendlebury, Thomas, Riewoldt, Pavlich, became A graders purely because of development ?

Most professionals in footy clubs consider the head recruiter as the most important person at the club. Clearly player development is crucial, but anyone that says that talent identification isn't as important as player development, and most likely more so, is a gene short of a moron.

Two years we were the best young list the AFL, Leigh Matthews said it would be his choice of lists to coach. Now recruiting in the past might have been poo, but I still think the list we've got can be good enough to get to top 4 some day.

Commetti is 100% correct.

Pity Neeld wasn't around 5-6 years ago.

If he was they would be calling us pigs not demons.

Too much grunt.

Maybe the Pope can make an appropriate Easter contribution to next weeks edition of Inside Football

We have been nowhere near fit enough and opposing teams have laughed at our set ups and our structures and our intensity.

Misson can fix our fitness.

Neeld can fix our set ups and structures and demand greater intensity.

He looks like the first Dees coach with a bit of mongrel in him since Swooper.

We can't just keep on endlessly rebuilding.

I've read some of your posts that seemed quite sensible. I must have caught you on a good day.

So Fyfe who's shone from day one has been unbelievably 'developed' by Freo ? Rockliff, who was a star at junior level, but had to wait until the pre-season draft because the knock on him was that he was slow has been a revelation because of the coaches at Brisbane ? Dustin Martin who has played like a veteran since his first game has been developed by the Tiges even though he's surrounded by spuds ? So Joel Selwood has only been a revelation because of the players around him at Geelong even though a top 5 pick in Kane Tenace surrounded by the same players couldn't make it ?

Ahhhhh the value of hindsight. Interestingly if they where that obvious before the event - WHY did they not ALL go pick 1? You see - its easy after the event but when you have to put your balls on the line before they play their first AFL game its not so simple - its all about increasing your probabilities but its not an exacting science - your dealing with human beings not robots.

So former top five draft picks in Goddard,

Just remind me how he went in his first 3-4 years at St Kilda? A-grader was he? wonder how he made it to A-grade status - (the clue is later in my post but his initials start with DM)

Murphy, Judd, Hodge, Franklin, Pendlebury, Thomas

What have all these boys got in common? (here is a little hint $$$$$$$ spent inside footy departments to develop them)

Lets throw in Selwood & Murphy, Judd, Hodge, Franklin, Pendlebury, Thomas - Tell me what clubs are spending the big $$$$$$ in their football departments to develop their players. (I will help you again Collingwood, Geelong, Carlton, Hawthorn & West Coast!!!!)

So is it possible high draft picks combined with huge footy department $$$$$ produce A grade players? Just a thought!

Plus - Explain to me how we missed recruiting 1 of them?

Most professionals in footy clubs consider the head recruiter as the most important person at the club.

I would have agreed with you 4-5 years ago. However, we have had a massive change in AFL football in recent years - recovery, fitness combined with modern day science. Hello Dave Misson!!!!

Clearly player development is crucial, but anyone that says that talent identification isn't as important as player development, and most likely more so, is a gene short of a moron.

Nope what we are saying are the "names" are irrelevant if you fail to develop them. High draft picks dont guarantee success it only improves your probability.

If you want A-graders .... hope you have deep pockets!

Just a thought.

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You can always blame the players. But are they really that good to begin with?

It comes back to the people that chose them and Melbourne seem to consistently pick the same type of player; weak reeds like Jack Watts and Cale Morton.

It's a very bland group of players that they have right now, and it comes back to recruiting. And the recruiting has been shocking.

Here comes the bandwagon of hate!

Jack Watts is far from being a weak reed. He WILL be a star. No doubt about it!

Commetti's article sounded just like a disgruntled supporter having a good vent

Why didn't he just get an anonymous id and a flashy avatar on Demonland and have his little tanty there like the rest of us

Thanks Denis ([censored])

I've read some of your posts that seemed quite sensible. I must have caught you on a good day.

So Fyfe who's shone from day one has been unbelievably 'developed' by Freo ? Rockliff, who was a star at junior level, but had to wait until the pre-season draft because the knock on him was that he was slow has been a revelation because of the coaches at Brisbane ? Dustin Martin who has played like a veteran since his first game has been developed by the Tiges even though he's surrounded by spuds ? So Joel Selwood has only been a revelation because of the players around him at Geelong even though a top 5 pick in Kane Tenace surrounded by the same players couldn't make it ? So former top five draft picks in Goddard, Murphy, Judd, Hodge, Franklin, Pendlebury, Thomas, Riewoldt, Pavlich, became A graders purely because of development ?

Most professionals in footy clubs consider the head recruiter as the most important person at the club. Clearly player development is crucial, but anyone that says that talent identification isn't as important as player development, and most likely more so, is a gene short of a moron.

It's literally impossible to argue with Dr Who and a few others on this point. They seem to think we're the emotional ones, yet they stick to this whole 'benefit of hindsight' stance despite overwhelmingly evidence to the contrary. It seems clear to me who are the emotional thinkers here.

For instance, Rhino Richards claimed on another (equally depressing) thread that some of my views on our poor recruiting are 'a victory of hindsight over foresight'.

For a start, implicit in that statement is an acknowledgement that our recruiting HAS been poor.

From my perspective, I recall thinking many, many times over the last few years, 'wow, that's a curious choice for that pick - I had thought [insert name of Shuey, Darling, Zaharakis, Selwood, Pears etc] was a lock in, if available, at that pick'. But I then thought ( ... hoped/prayed) that these guys, as our expert recruiters, knew more than Kevin Sheehan and Emma Quayle et ors about recruitment, and our seemingly slightly left field choices may prove to be masterstroke selections. After all, I had thought the whole methodology as to why we 'bottomed out' for so long was to get a number of years of great draft picks so we could then identify, recruit and develop an elite list. Unfortunately, being given the great draft picks is only half the equation.

Well, to date, those selections haven't looked like masterstrokes - in fact, some of those picks actually look to have been reckless in the extreme. Pendergast is no longer at the club (our recruitment expert), and our list looks tres ordinaire, even though it could've been absolutely bullet proof by now. Bailey is also no longer at the club (our development coach). Not great signs about the quality of our recruitment and development of our list in recent years.

So, in short, my thinking has gone from 'what they hell are these guys doing' (foresight), to now - 'what the hell have these guys done' (hindsight).

It's not been the the opposite way around, as claimed by RR previously. (And RR, I can predict your response to this already - you'll hunt a victory of FORM over SUBSTANCE. Like an old school litigator you'll hit me with hours of required research and interrogatories, which, if I can't be stuffed answering because I am actually too busy or simply couldn't be bothered, you'll then say my claims are utterly baseless and assert victory in another keyboard argument.)

I've said it before, young ER surgeons are taught 'if you hear hooves beating, think horses not zebras' - IMO the same seems not to have applied to our recruitment - quite simply, we have NOT taken the obvious choices FOR THIS CLUB'S NEEDS all too often. If we did, we'd now have a much better - in fact, a great list.

I find this very, very depressing.

West Coast, with a few players that should be playing for us against them, by 80 this weekend.

For instance, Rhino Richards claimed on another (equally depressing) thread that some of my views on our poor recruiting are 'a victory of hindsight over foresight'.

...

So, in short, my thinking has gone from 'what they hell are these guys doing' (foresight), to now - 'what the hell have these guys done' (hindsight).

I've said it before, young ER surgeons are taught 'if you hear hooves beating, think horses not zebras' - IMO the same seems not to have applied to our recruitment - quite simply, we have NOT taken the obvious choices FOR THIS CLUB'S NEEDS all too often. If we did, we'd now have a much better - in fact, a great list.

I just have to take it that you dont get it Ron. And thanks for validating this. Ben Hur raises some valid issues about the recruiting. Your efforts represent a cheap effort in the "It was so obvious" bucket. And I know you find it hard to argue those that challenge your views because you have so little substance to defend.

And I look forward to you dredging up the old posts at the time the recruiting was done that shares your wonderful foresight with us. Well done and give the Club a call they need your crystal ball in times like this.

Nope I don't get it RR. Neither does the whole of the informed AFL world either.

Perhaps in your little universe though, it's all very different.

Trengove Grimes Watts Frawley Garland Clark Sylvia Jurrah Gysberts Bail Magner

Morton Blease Jamar Petterd Jones Howe Martin Mckenzie Strauss Tapscott Bartram

Throw in Viney and another quality mid in next years super draft stir in some good

Coaching and we still have the makings of a top 4 side

Well at least I think we do

I actually believe Watts & Morton - two of those highlighted in DC's article - will be players. Indeed, I think Watts is developing in front of our eyes. Morton needs to do more - a given. What has disappointed me most though is that we seem to have focussed on thin, skillful (?) athletic types, ignoring grunt inside players and talls.

Magner, Couch, Clark & Sellar have all come on board late to partially address this. I don't know whether the likes of Cook & Fitzpatrick will ever develop. Don't know either whether we've seen the improvement we should reasonably expect in 3-4 year players like iBennell, Jetta, Gysberts, Strauss, Blease etc

I believe in Neeld, I think he knows what he's doing with the cards he has been dealt. Cannot be as complimentary about the Bailey/Prendergast strategy however.

So Fyfe who's shone from day one has been unbelievably 'developed' by Freo ? Rockliff, who was a star at junior level, but had to wait until the pre-season draft because the knock on him was that he was slow has been a revelation because of the coaches at Brisbane ? Dustin Martin who has played like a veteran since his first game has been developed by the Tiges even though he's surrounded by spuds ? So Joel Selwood has only been a revelation because of the players around him at Geelong even though a top 5 pick in Kane Tenace surrounded by the same players couldn't make it ?

Look I probably should also address the names you mentioned - with my own personal opinions - on why they are not wearing red & blue

Nat Fyfe - (Draft 2009 - Pick 20) Nat has adjusted very, very well to the step up from WA junior football to AFL, staying in his home state has no doubt assisted him. It was so obvious to the Dockers that he was the best WA kid that they actually overlooked him with their first pick in that draft and went for Anthony Morabito - sadly [censored] happens and Morabito has sustained terrible injuries. From memory the pool of WA kids from that year, although they performed just ok in the nationals, just possibly a theory circulated "they where a tight bunch & the sum of the whole was greater than the sum of the parts". That years national where dominated by SA & Vic.

Nat expected range - 10-20

Demons selections

1/ Tom Scully - No brainer I'm not going over old ground.

2/ JT - No brainer, had played against seniors, performed brilliant at nationals

3/ Jordan Gysberts Pick 11 - now we move into the grey area - probably not our 1st choice, Melksham went at 10 [censored] happens, Jordan was a talented versatile kid who had played 2 junior carnivals and performed well in both, Jordan highlight game that probably clinched the deal was a TAC cup final against the then all conquering Geelong falcons who had dominated that year TAC footy - lost only 1 game in home & away, Eastern ranges lost their key goal kicker (Ben I've got a glass shoulder Griffiths) before we had a chance to buy our first beer, but Jordy went on too dominate kick 4-5 top goals against the Top team of the year. many many ++++'s perform on the top stage against top opposition when it counts. (PS - late edit Port & Sydney were all over him - both had picks after MFC - you know the story "formally interviews, informal chats with Eastern Ranges choaching staff - Port even had the gaul to "complain" at how poorly "some" Eastern kids perform in those interviews - I wonder why??)

4/ Luke Tapscott - more grey area. However, BP would have had a boner with his name still avliable to call. If you had seen the nationals that year some of his goals where amazing he was kicking them from everywhere. The Tigers were into him in a big way, who had the pick after MFC, you would not take a risk. IMHO it was a no brainer.

Dusty Martin - (Draft 2009 Pick 3) - lets just talk Dusty, top quality physical kid some say a 24yo old in a 20yo body. However, modern day AFL is so much about mental capacity you have to learn game plans, structures & you want leadership potential from your early picks. I hope I'm wrong re Dusty - but has he the capabilty to be the complete package? I dont know how well you know dusty but can he grow? Time will tell. (Oh yes - In the back on my mind ironically I would be mildly concerned about his Sydney conection)

Tom Rockliffe - (Draft 2008 - Pick 5 Pre-season) - Very, very unfair. Yip Tom did miss getting selected by EVER club in that draft. But who was he training with after that - OH yes it was MFC. Had Liam not got special dispensation by the AFL to be selected in the pre-season draft Tom would have been a Dee. Dont think you can blame the recruting staff here - more a case of unlucky timing. Plus, maybe just maybe the best kick in the pants Tom ever got was to miss the draft - great motivating factor.

Joel Selwood vs Tenace - just goes to prove even with huge development $$$$$ money some punts pay off some dont - some injuries your recovery & fitness people, if you throw enough $$$$ at it, you can fix some you cant - the joys of recruiting. But we never had a chance at Selwood

So Denis big boy - you are more than welcome here any time as a Demons "supporter" to discuss these points - but hey watch the cheap shots some might actually believe. The day you have to put your balls on the line before they have played their first game - then I might take your opinions with a little more weight.

Cheap shot Denis - cheap.

Look I probably should also address the names you mentioned - with my own personal opinions - on why they are not wearing red & blue

Nat Fyfe - (Draft 2009 - Pick 20) Nat has adjusted very, very well to the step up from WA junior football to AFL, staying in his home state has no doubt assisted him. It was so obvious to the Dockers that he was the best WA kid that they actually overlooked him with their first pick in that draft and went for Anthony Morabito - sadly [censored] happens and Morabito has sustained terrible injuries. From memory the pool of WA kids from that year, although they performed just ok in the nationals, just possibly a theory circulated "they where a tight bunch & the sum of the whole was greater than the sum of the parts". That years national where dominated by SA & Vic.

Nat expected range - 10-20

Demons selections

1/ Tom Scully - No brainer I'm not going over old ground.

2/ JT - No brainer, had played against seniors, performed brilliant at nationals

3/ Jordan Gysberts Pick 11 - now we move into the grey area - probably not our 1st choice, Melksham went at 10 [censored] happens, Jordan was a talented versatile kid who had played 2 junior carnivals and performed well in both, Jordan highlight game that probably clinched the deal was a TAC cup final against the then all conquering Geelong falcons who had dominated that year TAC footy - lost only 1 game in home & away, Eastern ranges lost their key goal kicker (Ben I've got a glass shoulder Griffiths) before we had a chance to buy our first beer, but Jordy went on too dominate kick 4-5 top goals against the Top team of the year. many many ++++'s perform on the top stage against top opposition when it counts.

4/ Luke Tapscott - more grey area. However, BP would have had a boner with his name still avliable to call. If you had seen the nationals that year some of his goals where amazing he was kicking them from everywhere. The Tigers were into him in a big way, who had the pick after MFC, you would not take a risk. IMHO it was a no brainer.

Dusty Martin - (Draft 2009 Pick 3) - lets just talk Dusty, top quality physical kid some say a 24yo old in a 20yo body. However, modern day AFL is so much about mental capacity you have to learn game plans, structures & you want leadership potential from your early picks. I hope I'm wrong re Dusty - but has he the capabilty to be the complete package? I dont know how well you know dusty but can he grow? Time will tell. (Oh yes - In the back on my mind ironically I would be mildly concerned about his Sydney conection)

Tom Rockliffe - (Draft 2008 - Pick 5 Pre-season) - Very, very unfair. Yip Tom did miss getting selected by EVER club in that draft. But who was he training with after that - OH yes it was MFC. Had Liam not got special dispensation by the AFL to be selected in the pre-season draft Tom would have been a Dee. Dont think you can blame the recruting staff here - more a case of unlucky timing. Plus, maybe just maybe the best kick in the pants Tom ever got was to miss the draft - great motivating factor.

Joel Selwood vs Tenace - just goes to prove even with huge development $$$$$ money some punts pay off some dont - some injuries your recovery & fitness people, if you throw enough $$$$ at it, you can fix some you cant - the joys of recruiting. But we never had a chance at Selwood

So Denis big boy - you are more than welcome here any time as a Demons "supporter" to discuss these points - but hey watch the cheap shots some might actually believe. The day you have to put your balls on the line before they have played their first game - then I might take your opinions with a little more weight.

Cheap shot Denis - cheap.

Frankly, I didn't read most of that because I established in your last post that you missed the point.

I haven't blamed the club for missing out on any of the draft picks I mentioned, including Rockliff. I've also acknowledged (who wouldn't) that development is critically important at any club and I'm certain it's an area that has let the MFC down. But equally, anyone that doesn't understand the importance of talent identificiation and the value of early draft picks has little idea about footy.

Why do you think our two compensation picks in this year's superdraft are like gold ?

I actually believe Watts & Morton - two of those highlighted in DC's article - will be players.

Yeah good point lets talk alternative

Watts or the old chest-nut Nic-nat - many around here where upset losing Scully ... but imagine the "sheep-station" both West Coast & Fremantle would have been offering him had MFC taken Nic - it would have made the "Judd deal" look like loose change or the Scully property deal look like minuscule. Dont under-estimate either WC or Fremantle to get the job done if they really want it to happen.

Morton - clear stand out for pick 4 - had had a huge carnival, huge upside and although a West Australian - no fear his father had already told the Eagles where and how they could stick their jumper up their rear ends. Morton reminds me of a young Goddard - Hello David. Time, time time.

Frankly, I didn't read most of that because I established in your last post that you missed the point.

I haven't blamed the club for missing out on any of the draft picks I mentioned, including Rockliff. I've also acknowledged (who wouldn't) that development is critically important at any club and I'm certain it's an area that has let the MFC down. But equally, anyone that doesn't understand the importance of talent identificiation and the value of early draft picks has little idea about footy.

Why do you think our two compensation picks in this year's superdraft are like gold ?

Yip - dont read it - why does that surprise me. Its not just about the identification - all kids that get drafted have talent - massive revelation there!!!!

Its the $$$$$ you invest to develop that talent that counts. Your argument & Denis is so simplistic - but you run with it.

Modern day AFL is NOT simplistic. I think you and many others clearly miss the point - but such is life.

So sorry I think what is clearly established is you missed the point - I think I said I would have agreed with you 4-5 years ago - AFL football moves forward many fans just dont.

Why do you think our two compensation picks in this year's superdraft are like gold ?

They are like gold because we are upping our footy spend .... massively! Hello!! We are investing big time in our football department - hello!!

Draft equalisation is a myth - its football department spend equalisation that WILL make the difference. Even the AFL has recognised that.

You are arguing in a different era! But you probably missed that as well - as a self confessed non-reader.

Look you are a great guy obvious passionate Demon - so lets just agree to disagree.

Nope I don't get it RR. Neither does the whole of the informed AFL world either.

Perhaps in your little universe though, it's all very different.

This is just wrong. Sorry how else can you say it. The AFL world has now recognised that it more than just who you pick.

The AFL are now attempting to address the situation by offering special assistance to some clubs to spend more inside their football departments - much to the "disgust" and criticism of the big spenders Collingwood, Hawthorn & Geelong - now let me guess why they (Collingwood, Hawthorn & Geelong) are so anti-special assistance for some clubs!!!

Yeah good point lets talk alternative

Watts or the old chest-nut Nic-nat - many around here where upset losing Scully ... but imagine the "sheep-station" both West Coast & Fremantle would have been offering him had MFC taken Nic - it would have made the "Judd deal" look like loose change or the Scully property deal look like minuscule. Dont under-estimate either WC or Fremantle to get the job done if they really want it to happen.

Spot on. Nic Nat was a huge flight risk. And is a key reason we did not draft him.