Interesting, Id take Warnock.but by the by.. Bate has exhausted all real and fair opportunities and just come up a tad shy of anything convinving at AFL level. Anyone suggesting to elevate him to the engine room really ought to have a think about that. Hes just not equiped for the guts. Hed be dinner for many.

Bates might get a shot at another club, good luck should he do so.

You have to look at what we have in excess.

Warnock now has Rivers, Frawley, Garland, MacDonald, and McDonald ahead of him as a back who can play on talls.

He is gone.

Bate has had his opportunities - had a far better career than Dunn and Warnock, although that is saying laughably little...

If he were to be given an unlikely 2012 then the midfield is the only chance for him.

I don't think what I have said is terribly outlandish.

You have to look at what we have in excess.

Warnock now has Rivers, Frawley, Garland, MacDonald, and McDonald ahead of him as a back who can play on talls.

He is gone.

Bate has had his opportunities - had a far better career than Dunn and Warnock, although that is saying laughably little...

If he were to be given an unlikely 2012 then the midfield is the only chance for him.

I don't think what I have said is terribly outlandish.

ok..i hear you ..but i'll turn it around a bit .

Im inclined to only ever keep anyone becauser they are able, not because they might might might one day step up ( after years of either hesitation or inability).

Warnock is quite capable.. His presence is a fashion keep everyone honest and is genuine depth.

Dunn and Bates have run their courses. They offer nothin gin terms of real depth of pressure on others for position. They are mediocre. Im not for keeping them simply because the spot they vie for is an easier get.. If that then you need to get better players.

Are we trying to reason why a player is kept..or how easily some position can presently be filled.

Its a fine distinction no doubt. The reality is probably all migh tgo. But my point was simply . Of those three, Warnock was/is the only genuine AFL quality assett.

Get serious old fella

NO ONE is slower than TURTLE

Bater is lightning quick inside the fifty, loses all speed outside the white circular line

I said Bate's probably slower than Brock in reactive play...ie in close, with hands within the midfield.

'Old fella?', gee you're reaching there. Get serious...

Bate IS slow to react...yep.. well, slow is possibly a bit hard.. hes too slow at it for a genuine AFL impact. Hes too good for VFL..not quite across the line at the elite. Its a dilemma shared by others, not just Matty. If the game was alittel like yesteryear without the blistering pace Bate would be ideal. But the game is what it is. Its a shame., such is life

And .... here's a clip of Bater wheeling around on to his left at a centre square clearance.

And .... here's a clip of Bater wheeling around on to his left at a centre square clearance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvzBc0NkkBU

Are you sure that's Bater? Hard to tell when its pretty much black and white.

On second thoughts it must be Bater LOL

You have to look at what we have in excess.

Warnock now has Rivers, Frawley, Garland, MacDonald, and McDonald ahead of him as a back who can play on talls.

Add Davis who as he develops further raises the standard and closes the window opening further for Warnock.

Warnock is quite capable.. His presence is a fashion keep everyone honest and is genuine depth.

Of those three, Warnock was/is the only genuine AFL quality assett.

Its semantics Bub at best. You acknowledge that he is genuine depth in bottom 8 side. That is not a high value genuine AFL quality asset. You are dead right about Dunn and Bate but I think Warnocks days are numbered. And if McDonald and Davis do develop as defenders then Rivers will be looking over his shoulder carefully.

Its semantics Bub at best. You acknowledge that he is genuine depth in bottom 8 side. That is not a high value genuine AFL quality asset. You are dead right about Dunn and Bate but I think Warnocks days are numbered. And if McDonald and Davis do develop as defenders then Rivers will be looking over his shoulder carefully.

Rhino..this was in rresp[onse to RPFC..which of the three would keep.. Its known as a hypothetical. Even you agrre hes genuine depth and relevant to us. Doesnt matter per se where we are hes still relevant to us. The other two arent. Thats the rationale.

How long youd keep Warnock ? different question. Davis isnt knocking on any doors yet..not likely next year. 2013..hmm...who knows.. McDonald in similar boat. Warnock can keep an AFL forward in check ( on his day ) the other two cant..not yet.

Not really semantics at all.

How long youd keep Warnock ? different question. Davis isnt knocking on any doors yet..not likely next year. 2013..hmm...who knows.. McDonald in similar boat. Warnock can keep an AFL forward in check ( on his day ) the other two cant..not yet.

Not really semantics at all.

It is plain semantics.

Because if Warnock is genuine depth even without MacDonald and Davis there presence does not make his position any rosier. And after 7 years you know what you get from Warnock and its not enought to force a regular best 22 spot.There is no question about how long you keep Warnock...You dont he goes. MacDonald and Davis are both 18 or 19. Its unreasonable to judge them yet on what they cant do. On the basis of what they can do at a sub 20yo age then if you were looking at contracts for the next 2 years they get them. And from what I have seen at Casey and on Saturday, MacDonald has Warnock already for mobility.

Warnock is in the same boat as Bate and Dunn. They just have different seat numbers on board.

its not unreasonable to judge on what they cant do for by definition it depicts what they can. At present they ( Davis + McD ) arent good enough yet to push for the 1sts. I doubt that either will next year, but maybe end of year.. we'll see. .

We agree Dunn and Bate are effectively gone.

We simply disagree on any value in keeping Warnock for a year or so. Again..as youve failed to grasp the scenario outlined in the hypothetical suggested by RPFC IF...comprende ?? IF you keep one. which. As we both agree that two are gone it only leaves one. Thats the point...Its not hard RR even for you

Bates versatility up forward and around stoppages must be bonus , pace aside. Hes a good niggler in retrieving ball and he kicks goals. Why not keep him he wouldn't be a passenger in a side / coach that would nt relegate him every second week and with a job to do he's generally been pretty good at it. Bring on the coach & quickly I say

& that's not for the fact I'm an eastern suburbs boy.

The problem with Bate as a 'nearly good enough' is that weve pretty well seen teh length and breadth of his game and its found wanting in many departments at AFL level. . There are other in line that are 'nearly good enough " and all that is needed from them is development and maturity in the game. They will come into the side and add value. .

Bate is far too slow , in body and decision to make anythig of a midfield position. hed get dacked for 4 qtrs . He only just makes it as a fill in forward. His defensive game is far to one dimensional and most any player will work him out in half a quarter of footy.

Bate for mine is one of those players who does have some ability. On some days he manages to punch above his weight and looks quite good. Pendulum returns and he looks ordinary. The mean is in between. hes one of those whom you like for effort and perseverance and you genuinely hope at some stage they take theat next step up. And you wait...and wait...and eventually you realise youve seen the level theyre at and will remain.

This is not a benevolence instituion where we al lget a run and no one keeps score. Its AFL footy and you have to perform , not only to your best but better than the bloke chomping at your heels. Its fair to say that there are at least a couple with merit snacking on his heels currently..

He a solid player who can kick and mark. His decisions arent bad.per se , .just invariably not quick enough often to effect a positive for the team. In footy terms hes in that no -mans land . Between AFL and VFL..its a bugger.

Bate? I saw footage of him playing at Casey last weekend and he TOOK AN OVERHEAD MARK.

I almost fell off my chair.

Says a lot.

This thread is quite funny. As a collection of deficiencies, posters have more-or-less accurately accused Bate of:

- Being slow

- Not being good below his knees

- Not being able to take an overhead mark

- Not being tall enough for key position duties

- Lacking defensive abilities

- Slow decision making

- And having a tortoise-like turning arc

On the plus side he seems to be universally acknowledged as a solid kick for goal.

The original assessment reports our scouts and recruiters put together for this player would make fascinating reading!

Bate in the midfield is worth a shot, who knows he might even turn in to a Jobe Watson type.......

I reckon his speed is more of a problem as a forward than it would be as a mid. I can't see him as a midfielder long term but would be worth a crack.

This thread is quite funny. As a collection of deficiencies, posters have more-or-less accurately accused Bate of:

- Being slow

- Not being good below his knees

- Not being able to take an overhead mark

- Not being tall enough for key position duties

- Lacking defensive abilities

- Slow decision making

- And having a tortoise-like turning arc

On the plus side he seems to be universally acknowledged as a solid kick for goal.

The original assessment reports our scouts and recruiters put together for this player would make fascinating reading!

Pretty much all of those are true. However when we recruited him I think we were hoping:

- He'd get to KP size

- The game wouldn't speed up which has taken him out of the game

He does have some good attributes

- Strong work ethic with regard to multiple leads

- Ability to get to the right spots to get the ball - he's rarely struggled to get the footy even at AFL level

- Penetrating left foot

- Strongly built

too slow, to one sided, too bad...bye

too contracted, too many others to chop...too good at casey on the weekend....hello

too contracted, too many others to chop...too good at casey on the weekend....hello

The distance between Casey Fileds and the MCG is sometimes greater than 51 km !!

contracted can be traded ...

Can we just rid ourselves of dead wood. Bate GONE Morton GONE. Thanks for coming. NEXT!!!

He has some qualities that would be really useful to us as a clearance player:

He finds the ball

He can break tackles

He can dish off while being tackled

Reads the play really well

To offset that there are deficiencies:

He's slow

He can't kick on his right

He's weak overhead.

If we were to play him it would be right in the guts laying tackles and winning hard balls at stoppages. He lacks the pace to take the ball and run with it so he would need to be winning his own ball and farming it to the likes of Scully, Morton and Blease on the outside of the pack. His size and strength would be a huge asset in this role. He would have to work really hard to be a viable link man through the middle when we were running the ball, and also keeping his opponent in check when the opposition have the ball. His pace could easily be exploited in this situation.

It's a bit of a toss-up for mine and a lot would depend on his attitude to training and improving his running.

I have a family friend whom played on him only a couple of weeks ago- and he concluded that Bate is an ideal mifielder / ruck rover type wh has a big enough engine to carry it out. He won the under 18 B&F playing as a midfielder as well.

I have a family friend whom played on him only a couple of weeks ago- and he concluded that Bate is an ideal mifielder / ruck rover type wh has a big enough engine to carry it out. He won the under 18 B&F playing as a midfielder as well.

He obviously played on him at VFL level. Hes well suited, ( if not too good) there. At AFL level you need to be fleet of foot , very quick to dispose and dispose effectively. You need all of this to the power 2 when playing the midfield as the acceleration through teh midfield is what breaks lines. Bate simply doesnt have this.. hed get dacked. He gets far to oeasily coralled as it is let alone when theres kaotic traffic..

He obviously played on him at VFL level. Hes well suited, ( if not too good) there. At AFL level you need to be fleet of foot , very quick to dispose and dispose effectively. You need all of this to the power 2 when playing the midfield as the acceleration through teh midfield is what breaks lines. Bate simply doesnt have this.. hed get dacked. He gets far to oeasily coralled as it is let alone when theres kaotic traffic..

And yet some of the best clearance players in the league are comparatively slow...

Bate's current largest deficiency is playing too much at Casey and being able to adapt

confidently to AFL level. Bate will seek trade as soon as this season finishes and

watch him flourish at another club.

My biggest question regarding Bate is are we a good enough side to leave someone like

Bate out of the side? Is he only our 30th best player I think we got ahead of ourselves

leaving him out of the side.

Edited September 1, 201114 yr by Diablo Deemon