On 31/05/2011 at 09:20, dee-luded said:

Youve totally Missed the 'Gist'. I'm saying that people go to the members in the MCC & afiliates to be near successfull people. to rub shoulders, to get ahead. I'm not tarring all our members with this. But what I am saying is the Culture that eminates out of there since the Sixties is one of failure.

I'm suggesting the 'Old Breed', that got along with the likes of Checker Hughes & Norm Smith were winners, (the administrators). Then the world was changing through the sixties and the new attitude is the one that 'GOT' Norm Smith... Barassi walked around that Era, and the Demon attitude was killed by the New Broom attitude in the place. The successfull cricketers the Vics had like Lawry & Redpath, seemed to wane as well through this period, with the Odd exception. Where did the Vic Teams go during this era and what did they Win?

I'm saying I think that our players are made to think they're champs when they're Not. That they stop developing into Hardened competitors because of Hob Nobbing with the polite backslappers who help them 'Feel' like they've Made It.

Compound this with the poor facilities we endured after the MCC through Barass & the MFC off the MCG playing/training surface, & sent us too the Junction Oval, with next to No facilities. And still had to get of the cricket wicket.

The poor performances & politically correct 'Softness', starts with the Northern Stand. Not with the general Demons supporter or member.

OK - I'm interested in what you mean - I can remember Barassi going, had a pretty close connection to the club at that time. I remember Norm Smith going. You're saying the "Old Breed"( = Jim Cardwell et al.) were winners, and then softness set in? Have I got that right? Who were/are these "backslappers" that are ok with failure, and who are these politically correct softies in the Northern stand?

Really, I'm not having a go - I have puzzled over our club for a long while, and have always thought that the Dess supporters was a bit split b/n the MFC and MCC members... but I'm not sure I am clear about where you think the problem is. I am as sick of it as anyone.

Go Dees!

  On 31/05/2011 at 07:58, Thomo said:

With the benefit of hindsight, Green may not be the best choice, but he was the best person for the job when appointed. Best player, most experienced, courageous, can play anywhere on the field, in the leadership group, received the club leadership award. He may not be doing a great job right now, but it seemed like a no brainer to most people at the time, much more obvious that when McDonald was chosen.

Fair play, he was the obvious choice and I had no real qualms about the decision at the time. My main concern revolved around his ability to win his own ball, however, I thought this would be tempered by his courageous acts which we have been witness to over the last few years. Sadly, these to have been missing from his game this year.

  On 31/05/2011 at 09:20, dee-luded said:

Youve totally Missed the 'Gist'. I'm saying that people go to the members in the MCC & afiliates to be near successfull people. to rub shoulders, to get ahead. I'm not tarring all our members with this. But what I am saying is the Culture that eminates out of there since the Sixties is one of failure.

I'm suggesting the 'Old Breed', that got along with the likes of Checker Hughes & Norm Smith were winners, (the administrators). Then the world was changing through the sixties and the new attitude is the one that 'GOT' Norm Smith... Barassi walked around that Era, and the Demon attitude was killed by the New Broom attitude in the place. The successfull cricketers the Vics had like Lawry & Redpath, seemed to wane as well through this period, with the Odd exception. Where did the Vic Teams go during this era and what did they Win?

I'm saying I think that our players are made to think they're champs when they're Not. That they stop developing into Hardened competitors because of Hob Nobbing with the polite backslappers who help them 'Feel' like they've Made It.

Compound this with the poor facilities we endured after the MCC through Barass & the MFC off the MCG playing/training surface, & sent us too the Junction Oval, with next to No facilities. And still had to get of the cricket wicket.

The poor performances & politically correct 'Softness', starts with the Northern Stand. Not with the general Demons supporter or member.

Please tell me why Carlscum Football Club are not softer than us, using your rationale??

We have a problem inside the MFC but what you suggest is not it.

Without having read the thread:

I thought Connolly's comments were poor. If other players think that of us, that's not disrespectful, that's just how they perceive us. Even if it were disrespectful, I wouldn't come out and complain about it. It's completely true.

Clubs view us as weak. They look at our gameplan and think, that's a gameplan that involves outside runners, fast movement, and uncontested play. It does. Moreover, so far this year we've really struggled at winning the contested ball, we have players in our side who don't like physical contact (Dunn, Morton, Bennell, Davey), and we don't tackle hard. You can put those things down to a lack of leadership, or having to play physically underdeveloped players due to injuries, or whatver. But the Gold Coast is playing a myriad of teenagers, and no one's calling them soft.

The "Bruise-Free football" slur is a very timely bonus for us. Coaches often attempt to create these things to motivate their own players but Carlton has done it for us. The Notion that we are soft would rankle with most of the players and won't sit well with most of the hard nuts we have. And we DO have some.

Bartram

Jones

Moloney

Frawley

Rivers

Trengove

MacDaonald

Tapscott

Evans

Bail

Scully

Jetta

Grimes

McKenzie

Jamar

Sylvia

Gysberts

They are all 'head over the ball' footballers. They have the opportunity to change the culture and this could be the catalyst and the beginning of a new era. Geelong was known for its inconsistency and pretty boy football. they were also the team that you never put money on to win or lose because they would let you down. They now have the most solid team ethic of recent history. Things can change.

  On 31/05/2011 at 09:31, frankie_d said:

OK - I'm interested in what you mean - I can remember Barassi going, had a pretty close connection to the club at that time. I remember Norm Smith going. You're saying the "Old Breed"( = Jim Cardwell et al.) were winners, and then softness set in? Have I got that right? Who were/are these "backslappers" that are ok with failure, and who are these politically correct softies in the Northern stand?

Really, I'm not having a go - I have puzzled over our club for a long while, and have always thought that the Dess supporters was a bit split b/n the MFC and MCC members... but I'm not sure I am clear about where you think the problem is. I am as sick of it as anyone.

Go Dees!

I don't know, I wasn't there, But what I can see, is that the transformations that were happening at that time around the world in sport and other things were all related to changing attitudes, or times, if you will.

*Tennis: - the old, Harry Hopman. If a young charge got ahead of himself, Harry would send him to clean the toilet floors. Brought down to earth! Attitude.

This was the changing times, AUS tennis was amateur and refused to go Pro. The result, we struggled. America went Pro & started Indoors as well, they dominated for some decades. Our establishment where left behind and soft, and our players aren't Hungry. Spoilt.

Now, the Hungry nations are strongest to make it, Hungriest. (Russia, Balken states, now asian).....

* Vic Cricket. I think they've struggled since the sixties, compared to other australian states, re test players and Vic State shields. Can't comment too much here as I don't follow state cricket. Just an impression.

* Melbourne. We don't have a Windy Hill social complex or training facilities... We don't have Victoria Park social club or training facilities... We don't have a Princes Park social facilities or training facilities... We don't have a Glenferrie Oval or training facilities...

We've trained At the Junction Oval since about 1984ish, poor facilities and no social facilities. No real socialising with the down to earth supporters.

Our players don't get to meet and mingle over the past decades with our ordinary supporters, (pre memberships) and don't mix at the sausage sizzles after trining etc. The down to earth clubs have powered on over the past 50 Years.

The Demons socialising with the suits and wealthy play like spoilt boys, are too clean in the way they go about it, and haven't got the success. Even the sides of the mid 90's, so strong on paper underachieved...........

Now we see our young list, so strong on paper, and our leaders playing like diplomats.

I'm saying the experience of mingling Upstairs in the Northern Stand is damaging our young players, and their Not getting the hard edge of their opponents I get the feeling our boys would kill it in managing an Office works store,,, But would be useless in a Combat Batallion...

I think the mixing with the 'well to do's' upstairs, is spoiling them before they've become any sort of players,,, and the same has happened to the leaders before them. This turns into an ingrained culture woven into our silk fabric.

Barrassi, when coaching the Dees years ago, pleaded with the supporters to stop accepting mediocrity. What did he mean? He meant the supporters where making the players feel like they where Stars,,, when they weren't! This is what I think is going on, and is what stops our boys going in hard.

Our supporters even Boo opposition for hard play. The supporters are breeding this Holier than Thou attitude of political correctness. And Now we wonder why we are soft! And other clubs Laugh at us, and despise us for our Arrogance..........

We all saw the changes of the '60's,,,,, womens rights, Black Power, Aparthheid, Peace Revolution, all changes of the power balance and challenge to the old status quo... Well now it's happening again around the world, another Balance or power shift, and I don't want us to miss the lessons we didn't learn last time. Stop spoiling the boys and demand more of them..it's not the coaches... It's the Attitude around the club as a whole, the clubs culture thats Faulty.

  On 31/05/2011 at 09:37, why you little said:

Please tell me why Carlscum Football Club are not softer than us, using your rationale??

We have a problem inside the MFC but what you suggest is not it.

Carlton has always been a soft club, until Barassi got there. He hardened them for a while, but they were still ball players compared to the Tigers at the time. And the Bombers. Carlton doesnt have a particularly hard culture, but david Parkin brought some Hawthorn Vigour and they recruited for him, some aggressive types.

But anyway WYL, don't get defensive on the part of the northern stand as the defensiveness may blind you from seeing something.

My motivation is not to attack the "Northern stand",,, But rather to try to show an Idea that may have some value.

  On 31/05/2011 at 00:49, Curry & Beer said:

i'm glad you are enjoying it all so much

ever heard of supporting the club? you are a disgrace

Thank you

Being a supporter seems to be an outdated and unfashionable occupation.

Hopefully it won't be made illegal.

  On 31/05/2011 at 12:13, dee-luded said:

I don't know, I wasn't there, But what I can see, is that the transformations that were happening at that time around the world in sport and other things were all related to changing attitudes, or times, if you will.

*Tennis: - the old, Harry Hopman. If a young charge got ahead of himself, Harry would send him to clean the toilet floors. Brought down to earth! Attitude.

This was the changing times, AUS tennis was amateur and refused to go Pro. The result, we struggled. America went Pro & started Indoors as well, they dominated for some decades. Our establishment where left behind and soft, and our players aren't Hungry. Spoilt.

Now, the Hungry nations are strongest to make it, Hungriest. (Russia, Balken states, now asian).....

* Vic Cricket. I think they've struggled since the sixties, compared to other australian states, re test players and Vic State shields. Can't comment too much here as I don't follow state cricket. Just an impression.

* Melbourne. We don't have a Windy Hill social complex or training facilities... We don't have Victoria Park social club or training facilities... We don't have a Princes Park social facilities or training facilities... We don't have a Glenferrie Oval or training facilities...

We've trained At the Junction Oval since about 1984ish, poor facilities and no social facilities. No real socialising with the down to earth supporters.

Our players don't get to meet and mingle over the past decades with our ordinary supporters, (pre memberships) and don't mix at the sausage sizzles after trining etc. The down to earth clubs have powered on over the past 50 Years.

The Demons socialising with the suits and wealthy play like spoilt boys, are too clean in the way they go about it, and haven't got the success. Even the sides of the mid 90's, so strong on paper underachieved...........

Now we see our young list, so strong on paper, and our leaders playing like diplomats.

I'm saying the experience of mingling Upstairs in the Northern Stand is damaging our young players, and their Not getting the hard edge of their opponents I get the feeling our boys would kill it in managing an Office works store,,, But would be useless in a Combat Batallion...

I think the mixing with the 'well to do's' upstairs, is spoiling them before they've become any sort of players,,, and the same has happened to the leaders before them. This turns into an ingrained culture woven into our silk fabric.

Barrassi, when coaching the Dees years ago, pleaded with the supporters to stop accepting mediocrity. What did he mean? He meant the supporters where making the players feel like they where Stars,,, when they weren't! This is what I think is going on, and is what stops our boys going in hard.

Our supporters even Boo opposition for hard play. The supporters are breeding this Holier than Thou attitude of political correctness. And Now we wonder why we are soft! And other clubs Laugh at us, and despise us for our Arrogance..........

We all saw the changes of the '60's,,,,, womens rights, Black Power, Aparthheid, Peace Revolution, all changes of the power balance and challenge to the old status quo... Well now it's happening again around the world, another Balance or power shift, and I don't want us to miss the lessons we didn't learn last time. Stop spoiling the boys and demand more of them..it's not the coaches... It's the Attitude around the club as a whole, the clubs culture thats Faulty.

very interesting... I agree with many of your observations. "Back in the day" the MFC was the MCC's footy team, and had the best resources and the best facilities. Trained at the G 2 nights / week, tons of dough (for the time), and the other teams were jealous of our facilities. I was told that Carlton (= Kenneth Luke -> George Harris) never got over the MCG getting the Olympics over Princes Park, and that when he was President of the VFL (56 - 71), he never missed an opportunity to get stuck into the Dees. Eventually, the old money lost out to the new money, and the balance of power shifted from the Members at the 'G to who-ever had the $$. Barassi moving was s sign of the times.

A really complex club, with a complex history - and I give Stynes / Schwab full marks for working on getting the MFC/MCC linkage right (or as right as it can get).

Well apart from the fact that Mitch Robinson is a moron and has the intelligence of a bean, (which BTW is why people confuse him for a hard nut, he is what I would call a pre-Darwin Award recipient he has a great ability to do dangerous and life threatening things for no other reason then it seemed like a good idea at the time or to impress the ladies) he has highlighted the way other players see our team.

Whether he is right about the hardness or softness of the players is irrelevant at this point because its out in the public forum now and its up to the players to respond to the criticism leveled at them. The players reaction to this story will be interesting to see. They have 2 options they can take it lying down and remain listless and dispassionate about it all or they can rise up to the challenge laid down.

I await Friday night with a touch of nerves and a smattering of giddy excitement to see what their reaction is.

  On 31/05/2011 at 12:35, frankie_d said:

very interesting... I agree with many of your observations. "Back in the day" the MFC was the MCC's footy team, and had the best resources and the best facilities. Trained at the G 2 nights / week, tons of dough (for the time), and the other teams were jealous of our facilities. I was told that Carlton (= Kenneth Luke -> George Harris) never got over the MCG getting the Olympics over Princes Park, and that when he was President of the VFL (56 - 71), he never missed an opportunity to get stuck into the Dees. Eventually, the old money lost out to the new money, and the balance of power shifted from the Members at the 'G to who-ever had the $. Barassi moving was s sign of the times.

A really complex club, with a complex history - and I give Stynes / Schwab full marks for working on getting the MFC/MCC linkage right (or as right as it can get).

Yes, all of that BUT, what I'm trying to say is that IMO, the conservativeness of that establishment is not the best place to hone New young talent. That we want them to become hard assed footballers, Not politicians. They come through there like they've been through finishing school, more than like footballers.I think its more successfull for business types to be there, than footballers.

The other clubs have the siupporters close to their ears often @ the training/social bases. This has been great for the clubs over the decades, & the young players coming through... The Kangaroos in the 70's & the Hawks. The Blues bounced back in the 80's with the Hawks flying and Sheedy's Bombers.

They came and played @ the 'G', But they don't socialise their. They mixed with their own club supporters. And were kept down to earth.

  On 31/05/2011 at 13:59, dee-luded said:

Yes, all of that BUT, what I'm trying to say is that IMO, the conservativeness of that establishment is not the best place to hone New young talent. That we want them to become hard assed footballers, Not politicians. They come through there like they've been through finishing school, more than like footballers.I think its more successfull for business types to be there, than footballers.

The other clubs have the siupporters close to their ears often @ the training/social bases. This has been great for the clubs over the decades, & the young players coming through... The Kangaroos in the 70's & the Hawks. The Blues bounced back in the 80's with the Hawks flying and Sheedy's Bombers.

They came and played @ the 'G', But they don't socialise their. They mixed with their own club supporters. And were kept down to earth.

I hate to say it but dont Collingwood and Essendon have the next highest numbr of MCC Members. They dont seem to have a problem. What a whole lot of rubbish.

  On 31/05/2011 at 13:59, Felix da Dee said:

Well apart from the fact that Mitch Robinson is a moron and has the intelligence of a bean, (which BTW is why people confuse him for a hard nut, he is what I would call a pre-Darwin Award recipient he has a great ability to do dangerous and life threatening things for no other reason then it seemed like a good idea at the time or to impress the ladies) he has highlighted the way other players see our team.

Whether he is right about the hardness or softness of the players is irrelevant at this point because its out in the public forum now and its up to the players to respond to the criticism leveled at them. The players reaction to this story will be interesting to see. They have 2 options they can take it lying down and remain listless and dispassionate about it all or they can rise up to the challenge laid down.

I await Friday night with a touch of nerves and a smattering of giddy excitement to see what their reaction is.

The match we need to be waiting with nervousness is the following game against Collingwood.

We've already seen what happens when the media blowtorch is applied to our players. They lift a la the Adelaide thumping. We all get our hopes up, then they inevitably can't back it up when the spotlight is elsewhere.

I'll be looking to see how they respond over the next 3 - 4 weeks, not just one.

  On 31/05/2011 at 19:45, Range Rover said:

The match we need to be waiting with nervousness is the following game against Collingwood.

We've already seen what happens when the media blowtorch is applied to our players. They lift a la the Adelaide thumping. We all get our hopes up, then they inevitably can't back it up when the spotlight is elsewhere.

I'll be looking to see how they respond over the next 3 - 4 weeks, not just one.

thats very true

  On 31/05/2011 at 12:13, btdemon said:

The "Bruise-Free football" slur is a very timely bonus for us. Coaches often attempt to create these things to motivate their own players but Carlton has done it for us. The Notion that we are soft would rankle with most of the players and won't sit well with most of the hard nuts we have. And we DO have some.

Bartram

Jones

Moloney

Frawley

Rivers

Trengove

MacDaonald

Tapscott

Evans

Bail

Scully

Jetta

Grimes

McKenzie

Jamar

Sylvia

Gysberts

They are all 'head over the ball' footballers. They have the opportunity to change the culture and this could be the catalyst and the beginning of a new era. Geelong was known for its inconsistency and pretty boy football. they were also the team that you never put money on to win or lose because they would let you down. They now have the most solid team ethic of recent history. Things can change.

very well put btdemon.....teams lacking in confidence and results, and we surely are, become whipping boys for all manner of reasons. We ARE perceived as soft, but we HAVE seen this team play hard contested footy (both games vs. Collingwood last year?). Our skills have been lamentable recently, but we HAVE seen them play skilled attractive football (Adelaide this year).

This is an issue of maturity, confidence, and consistency. I'll completely agree that for whatever reason, we're not seeing the best out of this team's potential, but I'm confident it will turn around. Jabs and blows like these sledges, shambolic tribunal decisions and injury lists will be grist to the mill for this team over the next 6 years.

We need to keep the faith, because the youth nucleus of this team are hard, contest-loving footballers,(and that includes Jack Watts, whose aggression is notching up weekly) and will have success. It will not be this year, and in fact with our games lost through injury, statistically we are going to have a shocker of a year, but this is a team which WILL have success, sledging or not, and the slings and arrows will just toughen their resolve.

  On 31/05/2011 at 22:47, Webber said:

teams lacking in confidence and results, and we surely are, become whipping boys for all manner of reasons. We ARE perceived as soft, but we HAVE seen this team play hard contested footy. Our skills have been lamentable recently, but we HAVE seen them play skilled attractive football.

This is an issue of maturity, confidence, and consistency. I'll completely agree that for whatever reason, we're not seeing the best out of this team's potential, but I'm confident it will turn around. Jabs and blows like these sledges, shambolic tribunal decisions and injury lists will be grist to the mill for this team over the next 6 years.

We need to keep the faith, because the youth nucleus of this team are hard, contest-loving footballers, and will have success.

You're aware that similar words are used by supporters of other clubs every single day ? These words could have come from a Richmond, North, or Port Adealide forum. Not as much North, as even though they're crud they usually have a dip, but you get my point.

Rinse and repeat.

I believe that our best 22-25 next year will be very good and play some terrific football. I just hope they're in the hands of a better tactician and more astute/hard nosed leader.

I only wish Bailey had hopped up at the Press conference with some footage of gartlett and betts non committal to contests on Friday night. Then just to finish it off he could have shown footage of judd eye gouging and commented that it wasn't tough either. See you in round 20 scumbags.

  On 31/05/2011 at 23:28, Roost It said:

I only wish Bailey had hopped up at the Press conference with some footage of gartlett and betts non committal to contests on Friday night. Then just to finish it off he could have shown footage of judd eye gouging and commented that it wasn't tough either. See you in round 20 scumbags.

LOL - add Yarran to that list.

And scumbags is complimentary.

Isn't it interesting that it has come to fruition that three Carlton players have referred to our team as having played "Bruise-free" footy. Arnfield, Robinson and our previously own Brock McLean.

It is as if Carlton have looked at our fixture with Essendon & Collingwood coming up and decided to throw a few hand grinades after leaving the scene after a more than comfortable win, to make things difficult for our upcoming opponent(s) by turning the blowtorch up. Particularly top 4 candidate Essendon.

The real problem with these coments are that they are true, it's terribly embarrassing to watch . If i wanted to watch that kind of commitment, i'd go and watch the local footy club play.

  On 31/05/2011 at 23:53, High Tower said:

Isn't it interesting that it has come to fruition that three Carlton players have referred to our team as having played "Bruise-free" footy. Arnfield, Robinson and our previously own Brock McLean.

It is as if Carlton have looked at our fixture with Essendon & Collingwood coming up and decided to throw a few hand grinades after leaving the scene after a more than comfortable win, to make things difficult for our upcoming opponent(s) by turning the blowtorch up. Particularly top 4 candidate Essendon.

What did McLean say? I haven't heard him mentioned.

if you dont want to be called a duck, stop walking talking a playing like a duck.

We have...we're ducks !!!

Wasn't there a game under Daniher when the guys came out trying to play 'unsocialable' football following some similar comments being made about their lack of mongrel?

Pretty sure we lost that game...

  On 31/05/2011 at 12:19, dee-luded said:

Carlton has always been a soft club, until Barassi got there. He hardened them for a while, but they were still ball players compared to the Tigers at the time. And the Bombers. Carlton doesnt have a particularly hard culture, but david Parkin brought some Hawthorn Vigour and they recruited for him, some aggressive types.

But anyway WYL, don't get defensive on the part of the northern stand as the defensiveness may blind you from seeing something.

My motivationis not to attack the "Northern stand",,, But rather to try to show an Idea that may have some value.

Carlscum do not have a hard culture??? Hmmm don't think i can agree to that. 16 dirty flags are in their cheating cupboard.

I am not being defensive of the "Northern Stand" at all, i just think our problems come from other places that's all. Your points are well made, but it is too easy to lean on them.

The advent of AAMI Park makes them redundant anyway.

  On 01/06/2011 at 01:12, Rogue said:

What did McLean say? I haven't heard him mentioned.

He also made mention "bruise free footy" in an interview post game. This was discussed this morning with Anthony Hudson and Tim Watson on SEN. They mentioned he also stated it. I haven't heard it myself, but I took their word.