Post Tank Think Tank

[Goodvibes 3,596]

I posted what follows on the 30th of September 2009. I'm not sure I still hold these concerns and I'm not sure if any of our 'poor culture' talk of the past month can be linked to the last eight rounds of the 2009 season but I'm interested in the thoughts of my fellow Demonlander. I'm not even sure if I buy this talk of 'winning culture' and 'losing culture' and I'm not sure there is any evidence of the mental scars our playing group may or may not possess but it seems more and more likely that our coach is going to lose his head. Our team has many reasons for it's poor form over the past couple of weeks but the first month of the season saw only a couple of our best players missing and it was clear that the 21 plus 1 we put on the park each week lacked the necessary mongrel and desire for the contest. Has the coach lost the players or did he lose them sixteen months ago?

I supported our push to secure picks 1 and 2 but have grown increasingly uncomfortable with what transpired over the last 8 weeks of the season. I'm equally adept at justifying McLean's exit and I had already reconciled a possible Davey departure but I'm genuinely concerned about the ramifications of the way the club conducted itself during the second half of 2009. I've told myself that a couple of early victories in 2010 will have the players looking forward and certainly not dwellng on the events of the previous season but I'm not convinced.

I've got a lot of repect for Dean Bailey but I'm not sure the playing list can ride the tanking rollercoaster without having some reservations or questions about their boss. Some will suggest that the smart players will see that losing has been in their best interests. I worry about the not so smart players.

We took tanking to embarrassing new depths. Comparisons with Carlton are way off the money. I'm not suggesting we're in trouble and I'm not suggesting a player revolt is on the cards, I'm purely suggesting that it's way too early to assume that the club has successfully negotiated any tanking-related fallout that could come its way.

I'm no different to any Dees supporter who salivates over the prospect of Scully, Trengove as well as pick 11 and 18 and whatever comes out of PSD 1 but I do know that the flippant, throwaway forum demands for the club to lose games of AFL football are much easier to deal with in the virtual world. In the real world, however, we're talking about a club who's greatest assets are their players and those players happen to be human. And unfortunately humans usually possess human emotions. How many of us have put ourselves in the boots of a 2009 MFC footballer? How would you feel running out on the ground, giving your absolute best, running yourself into the ground and have your coach make clear decisions that are making it more difficult than it should be to win. You've lost all year and finally it looks like victory is within sight and you see the very backbone of your defence thrown forward, your key forward chucked into the ruck and your best onballers taken away from the centre square. Your Liam Jurrah, you've never even heard of the word 'tanking' and you're wondering why your coach is resting you on the pine when you've just kicked 4 incredible goals. It's too easy to simply say that every single player would realise that these losses are a necessary evil.

We can't wait for Trengove and Scully to get to our club because we know they're born winners. They're apparently very smart lads. How would they view the events of 2009? What does Jack Watts make of his new club? Does he still respect his first senior coach?

I'll probably be seen as naive or precious after this post but the future of this club is in the hands of a collection of very talented young players. Talented young players who are easily influenced - influenced by their parents, friends, mates at other clubs and maybe guys like Robbo and McLean who they looked up to. I wonder what these influences think about the MFC after the events of 2009.

I'm happy we've got picks 1 and 2 and am confident we have the makings of a premiership team but it's becoming tiresome seeing anyone who raises a few doubts in regards to the methods we've used to obtain this bright future, get shot down in flames.

[rpfc 28,433]

We didn't value winning, but to tank was the selfish act of a club who saw an opportunity and did what was necessary.

It was beautiful.

I honestly didn't think the club had enough see you next tuesday to do it, and I really don't think Daniher would have allowed it. Don't know who was the primary pusher but thanks to Bailey, Schwab and co.

Oh, and I fail to see how Green and Davey being mentally weak has anything to do with us tanking two years ago.

Oh, and we were [censored]. We just made sure we got what was coming to us.

Can I get a +1?

[Guest Artie Bucco]

+ 1.

[Guest Artie Bucco]

I also don't buy the winning / losing culture theory.

I think it can be detrimental to the team if players undervalue what they need to do to get a game, but that can be changed with a fit and competitive list.

Right now it is hard with so many injuries and only having spuds or toddlers to bring in.

A ruthless coach can change this fairly easily and quickly.

Once developed, we'll have a deep and talented list.

Right now we are seeing Morton and Bennell paying the price for soft efforts, probably against the short-term best interests of the team.

Hopefully that continues.

[Goodvibes 3,596]

Oh, and I fail to see how Green and Davey being mentally weak has anything to do with us tanking two years ago.

So apart from Green and Davey, everything is peachy?

[MrReims 315]

So apart from Green and Davey, everything is peachy?

And because it isn't, that makes you right?

[QueenC 74]

A ruthless coach can change this fairly easily and quickly.

As has been proven many times.....

[rpfc 28,433]

So apart from Green and Davey, everything is peachy?

Used as an example.

Other glib things I could have said range from "I fail to see how us tanking means that Jamar, Grimes, Trengove, Garland, and Bail would become unavailable for an important stretch of games" or "I fail to see how us tanking means that players failed to adequately learn/Bailey adequately teach a decent press."

[Goodvibes 3,596]

And because it isn't, that makes you right?

No.

I'm just putting it out there. We're going to lose our coach. Can you coach in such a fashion that stops your team from winning when all they want tot do is win and not expect there to be an impact on the psyche of the playing group?

[Goodvibes 3,596]

Used as an example.

Other glib things I could have said range from "I fail to see how us tanking means that Jamar, Grimes, Trengove, Garland, and Bail would become unavailable for an important stretch of games" or "I fail to see how us tanking means that players failed to adequately learn/Bailey adequately teach a decent press."

Don't be glib then. Instead tell me if you think the 22 that are taking the field each week have the hunger to win. It looks to me that they like the idea of winning but are they willing to run through brick walls for their coach? Would you if you'd bust a gut only to lose after the siren because your coach clearly made moves designed to lose? Can the same coach that helped orchestrate the deliberate losing of games then take the same group to success? I have massive amounts of respect for the way in which Bailey cast aside his win/loss percentage and his crediblility in the eyes of many to ensure we maximized our drafting position. He may have given us a premiership team but sacrificed himself in the process.

[sylvias dukes 9]

I posted what follows on the 30th of September 2009. I'm not sure I still hold these concerns and I'm not sure if any of our 'poor culture' talk of the past month can be linked to the last eight rounds of the 2009 season but I'm interested in the thoughts of my fellow Demonlander. I'm not even sure if I buy this talk of 'winning culture' and 'losing culture' and I'm not sure there is any evidence of the mental scars our playing group may or may not possess but it seems more and more likely that our coach is going to lose his head. Our team has many reasons for it's poor form over the past couple of weeks but the first month of the season saw only a couple of our best players missing and it was clear that the 21 plus 1 we put on the park each week lacked the necessary mongrel and desire for the contest. Has the coach lost the players or did he lose them sixteen months ago?

I supported our push to secure picks 1 and 2 but have grown increasingly uncomfortable with what transpired over the last 8 weeks of the season. I'm equally adept at justifying McLean's exit and I had already reconciled a possible Davey departure but I'm genuinely concerned about the ramifications of the way the club conducted itself during the second half of 2009. I've told myself that a couple of early victories in 2010 will have the players looking forward and certainly not dwellng on the events of the previous season but I'm not convinced.

I've got a lot of repect for Dean Bailey but I'm not sure the playing list can ride the tanking rollercoaster without having some reservations or questions about their boss. Some will suggest that the smart players will see that losing has been in their best interests. I worry about the not so smart players.

We took tanking to embarrassing new depths. Comparisons with Carlton are way off the money. I'm not suggesting we're in trouble and I'm not suggesting a player revolt is on the cards, I'm purely suggesting that it's way too early to assume that the club has successfully negotiated any tanking-related fallout that could come its way.

I'm no different to any Dees supporter who salivates over the prospect of Scully, Trengove as well as pick 11 and 18 and whatever comes out of PSD 1 but I do know that the flippant, throwaway forum demands for the club to lose games of AFL football are much easier to deal with in the virtual world. In the real world, however, we're talking about a club who's greatest assets are their players and those players happen to be human. And unfortunately humans usually possess human emotions. How many of us have put ourselves in the boots of a 2009 MFC footballer? How would you feel running out on the ground, giving your absolute best, running yourself into the ground and have your coach make clear decisions that are making it more difficult than it should be to win. You've lost all year and finally it looks like victory is within sight and you see the very backbone of your defence thrown forward, your key forward chucked into the ruck and your best onballers taken away from the centre square. Your Liam Jurrah, you've never even heard of the word 'tanking' and you're wondering why your coach is resting you on the pine when you've just kicked 4 incredible goals. It's too easy to simply say that every single player would realise that these losses are a necessary evil.

We can't wait for Trengove and Scully to get to our club because we know they're born winners. They're apparently very smart lads. How would they view the events of 2009? What does Jack Watts make of his new club? Does he still respect his first senior coach?

I'll probably be seen as naive or precious after this post but the future of this club is in the hands of a collection of very talented young players. Talented young players who are easily influenced - influenced by their parents, friends, mates at other clubs and maybe guys like Robbo and McLean who they looked up to. I wonder what these influences think about the MFC after the events of 2009.

I'm happy we've got picks 1 and 2 and am confident we have the makings of a premiership team but it's becoming tiresome seeing anyone who raises a few doubts in regards to the methods we've used to obtain this bright future, get shot down in flames.

Great Post. I admire the way Richmond are building a winning culture. Halfway through last year betting agency's were paying out for Richmond to finish last. There were bets on when they'd actually win a game/or would win one. Hardwick has installed some pride into the club. Richmond play with some passion and a real desire to win. I'm not questioning whether the players are trying but surely deliberately losing has some serious consequence on the club. We took tanking to a new level in 2009. Prior to the season I was certain we were better then Richmond but now I have my doubts

[wisedog 352]

I can't help but agree with the OP. It took me a while to get past the 2009 season, and it still doesn't really sit well with me. We took tanking beyond 'clever list management' and it was embaressing.

Having said that, I don't blame the football department for a moment - it was a golden opportunity that no club could resist, it was just a terrible position to be in.

If we do lose Scully cheaply at the end of the year, will it all have been for nothing? In 2009, Richmond would have finished last and we would have picked up Trengove or Martin.

Edited May 23, 2011 by wisedog

[Goodvibes 3,596]

A ruthless coach can change this fairly easily and quickly.

Bailey has been ruthless as a list manager prepared to cull senior players and secure priority picks. If we don't believe that the same man who coached us to the priotiy pick of 2009 with such ruthless intent can take the group to a premiership then why are we not lauding Bailey for his selfless, club first mentality?

[rpfc 28,433]

Don't be glib then. Instead tell me if you think the 22 that are taking the field each week have the hunger to win. It looks to me that they like the idea of winning but are they willing to run through brick walls for their coach? Would you if you'd bust a gut only to lose after the siren because your coach clearly made moves designed to lose? Can the same coach that helped orchestrate the deliberate losing of games then take the same group to success? I have massive amounts of respect for the way in which Bailey cast aside his win/loss percentage and his crediblility in the eyes of many to ensure we maximized our drafting position. He may have given us a premiership team but sacrificed himself in the process.

Some of our players are playing consistent footy, the older ones are not.

And our culture of near enough is good enough has been around for ages, probably due to the 23 years of non-finals footy we endured.

The fans still look back with bitter fondness over '87 and '88, think we were great under Northey's reign, a 'real chance' in '94, and happy with the 'sustained success' under Daniher which led to two top 4 finishes in the first three years and not much after that.

What happened in 2004 was worse than what is happenning now - we were top of the ladder a game clear and lost our last 4 games of the season. One agaisnt the eventual Premiers (a 12 goal thrashing over there), and losses against middling sides at Etihad against Sydney (we scored 7 goals), at OO against Carlton, and against WCE in Perth. We then went out in the first week of the finals against Essendon.

They had the ability and the whole team was up and firing, and they fell when the pressure was applied.

We are young and NQR, and are stalling, this rebuild was never going to be linear. I have faith in the mentality of the kids.

Edited May 23, 2011 by rpfc

[Guest Artie Bucco]

Bailey has been ruthless as a list manager prepared to cull senior players and secure priority picks. If we don't believe that the same man who coached us to the priotiy pick of 2009 with such ruthless intent can take the group to a premiership then why are we not lauding Bailey for his selfless, club first mentality?

It wasn't intended as a slight against Bailey.

I think he has been fantastic.

And I think he remains ruthless, with Morton & Bennell spending time at Casey to work on deficiencies, when we could clearly use them at AFL level.

(or could we?)

We saw the same earlier this season when Petterd was "languishing" in the VFL and many a supporter was bemoaning that occurrence.

It seems it was for a reason that is becoming all too apparent now.

Without all these injuries, it would be easier to give these players an extended stay in the lower ranks to work on problem areas.

Hopefully it will continue to happen and we'll blood more kids.

That would be a truly selfless act by Bailey, because it would certainly lead to more short-term losses and could very easily cos him his job by season's end.

Edited May 23, 2011 by Artie Bucco

[H_T 3,047]

I posted what follows on the 30th of September 2009. I'm not sure I still hold these concerns and I'm not sure if any of our 'poor culture' talk of the past month can be linked to the last eight rounds of the 2009 season but I'm interested in the thoughts of my fellow Demonlander. I'm not even sure if I buy this talk of 'winning culture' and 'losing culture' and I'm not sure there is any evidence of the mental scars our playing group may or may not possess but it seems more and more likely that our coach is going to lose his head. Our team has many reasons for it's poor form over the past couple of weeks but the first month of the season saw only a couple of our best players missing and it was clear that the 21 plus 1 we put on the park each week lacked the necessary mongrel and desire for the contest. Has the coach lost the players or did he lose them sixteen months ago?

Thanks for the trip down memory lane Goodvibes.

Honestly, even though I can see your line of questionning and concern, I think you're looking too much into it. I see many of the good performances in 2010 as evidence he hadn't lost the players, even this season. I think the reasons are valid for the indifferent form. The loss of experience between 2010-2011. The injuries to key players and their interrupted program pre-2011 start to the season. The inconsistency of our older players. NAB Cup form also held true. What was disappointing is the apparent lack of coaching and work done against press systems. But one of the keys and best defence mechanisms is winning contested possessions, clearances and tackling well with intensity and pressure. ie. workrate.

The intensity has been disappointing, so too the turnovers. But in many ways in patches the skills have improved from some of the yougsters and the introduction of the likes of Tapscott down back have breathed new life into the side. Still, there are errors occurring through the pressure applied by teams new objectives and systems in place. It's still a learning curve and very much a development year.

But more important than anything, and I've created threads on them myself (*Leadership lacking*, *Non-negotiables*, *Leading Teams*) as well as been discussed by the likes of Snoopy (*It's the midfield stupid!*), rpfc and lately Artie Bucco in various threads - Our senior players haven't led by example when required and the midfield has been depleted to say the least which directly correlates with inconsistent and poor showings.

I'm confident that within 4-5 weeks time (further injuries permitting) when we regain some important key players our performances will be of a better competitive and consistent manner than what we have experienced in this season to date.

Inject Trengove back from suspension, Scully from injury, Bail to some extent and we will get more run back into the side which will compliment an improved McKenzie and Gysberts who are sinking their teeth into today's game. This in turn may release Davey and Sylvia with polish, etc, etc.

It's all looking up from here I reckon. Don't be disheartened by the next few weeks either people.

All that said, we need leaders, genuine leaders to step up and show the way.

[Juicebox 628]

Some of our players are playing consistent footy, the older ones are not.

And our culture of near enough is good enough has been around for ages, probably due to the 23 years of non-finals footy we endured.

The fans still look back with bitter fondness over '87 and '88, think we were great under Northey's reign, a 'real chance' in '94, and happy with the 'sustained success' under Daniher which led to two top 4 finishes in the first three years and not much after that.

What happened in 2004 was worse than what is happenning now - we were top of the ladder a game clear and lost our last 4 games of the season. One agaisnt the eventual Premiers (a 12 goal thrashing over there), and losses against middling sides at Etihad against Sydney (we scored 7 goals), at OO against Carlton, and against WCE in Perth. We then went out in the first week of the finals against Essendon.

They had the ability and the whole team was up and firing, and they fell when the pressure was applied.

We are young and NQR, and are stalling, this rebuild was never going to be linear. I have faith in the mentality of the kids.

Amen to that.

Where people actually expecting this 'rebuild' to be a steady and consistent incline towards success?

We should take some sick and twisted comfort in the fact that it is the older blokes that are down on form. This rebuild will eventually reach its peak and full potential. What is their role in the team going to be when that time comes?

[Goodvibes 3,596]

Excuse my self-indulgent double-bump but I'm just interested on how we're all sitting on the "winning/losing culture" issue.

[Hells Gates 505]

Excuse my self-indulgent double-bump but I'm just interested on how we're all sitting on the "winning/losing culture" issue.

There is no winning culture!!

[Axis of Bob 11,826]

Interesting bump.

I don't think that it is to do with a culture that has been created by tanking, but rather it is a culture was present independently of tanking. By this I mean that we have a culture of flair and attack, playing to instinct, rather than a defence first, team structure culture. This is demonstrated by the hard time that many players are having adapting to this new way of thinking in the new game plan.

I also think that it would not have been allowed to happen by the players if a different culture was present in the club at the time.

But what it does show, several years down the track, is how irrelevant the results of a few years ago are. I don't look back at the game worried about our tanking, but rather I appreciate our new co-captain, Jack Trengove.

As it turns out, our benefit from this has been delayed even more, with our pick 1 now becoming two first round picks this year. However it is more likely that this would have been anyway, while pick 2 (Trengove) was the bonus that we received.

[Guest José Mourinho]

Interesting bump.

I don't think that it is to do with a culture that has been created by tanking, but rather it is a culture was present independently of tanking. By this I mean that we have a culture of flair and attack, playing to instinct, rather than a defence first, team structure culture. This is demonstrated by the hard time that many players are having adapting to this new way of thinking in the new game plan.

I also think that it would not have been allowed to happen by the players if a different culture was present in the club at the time.

But what it does show, several years down the track, is how irrelevant the results of a few years ago are. I don't look back at the game worried about our tanking, but rather I appreciate our new co-captain, Jack Trengove.

As it turns out, our benefit from this has been delayed even more, with our pick 1 now becoming two first round picks this year. However it is more likely that this would have been anyway, while pick 2 (Trengove) was the bonus that we received.

THIS.

Bang on, in my opinion.

Edited April 10, 2012 by José Mourinho

[Goodvibes 3,596]

But what it does show, several years down the track, is how irrelevant the results of a few years ago are. I don't look back at the game worried about our tanking, but rather I appreciate our new co-captain, Jack Trengove.

Would you support us tanking again this year?

[Axis of Bob 11,826]

Hmmmm, good question.

I'm not sure. Firstly it would depend on where Viney will be bid for. If it means that we get early enough that we can pick up Viney with our second round pick then it makes it interesting. Otherwise no way.

I suspect that I wouldn't, purely because one of the platforms one which Neeld would have been selected would be based on culture transformation.

But I'm not sure.

[Goodvibes 3,596]

Hmmmm, good question.

Round 2, 2012 - it's a sad situation but would make for an interesting poll. It would also be interesting to compare the thinking of the 2012 anti-tankers with their previously held positions.

[Guest José Mourinho]

I wouldn't, but because of off-field ramifications.