where have all the "have_trust_in_the_FD,_they_know_what_they_are_doing" apologists gone?

I thought you were prepared to stick fat for them to continue until season's end for review. ;P

When you're younger, smaller, lighter, less experienced:

-playing a full court press is very dangerous.

-coping with a full court press is very difficult.

-man on man starts with assuming a lost contest.

-isolations are few and far between and are locked down sooner rather than later.

The learned ability to play calmly yet decisively through presses will be golden in years to come.

Having tried and failed is no reason to stop, indeed it would be at the cost of player/team development.

I suppose I could work myself into a fit because we lost a game we were expected to lose.

Or because our senior players were well held / run off.

We ARE essentially GC+1 atm. Development year? 2013+? I'll save my fit for those that derail that plan.

just wondered where "youse" all were

at least you had the courage to put up a defense even if it is full of spin

When you're younger, smaller, lighter, less experienced:

-playing a full court press is very dangerous.

-coping with a full court press is very difficult.

-man on man starts with assuming a lost contest.

-isolations are few and far between and are locked down sooner rather than later.

The learned ability to play calmly yet decisively through presses will be golden in years to come.

Having tried and failed is no reason to stop, indeed it would be at the cost of player/team development.

I suppose I could work myself into a fit because we lost a game we were expected to lose.

Or because our senior players were well held / run off.

We ARE essentially GC+1 atm. Development year? 2013+? I'll save my fit for those that derail that plan.

It's not that 'our senior players were well held / run off', Davey was not interested in playing last night. after he disposed of the ball he would simple stop running, and his defense was non existent. Difference between being well help and not bothering to try.

Their desire to run to a contest has been coached out of them? Come off it. The ludicrous nature of this comment is evidenced by the fact you mentioned Bennell in that group - he's been the same since the start.

Can you explain any other reason why many players no longer run and chase hard like they did a few years ago. For most players it is a natural instinct, but when Green and Davey no longer chase, what is the answer?

Melbourne seems to be the only team in the league that is not applying pressure to the opposition, anywhere on the ground. Surely this must be the decision of the coach? If it is not a directive from the coach, the players must be conspiring to have him sacked, because most of the team are doing (or not doing) the same thing. Bailey tells the media conference that the players are not playing how he wants them to, and each week they play the same way. Is he not compunicating properly, because every other club runs hard.

Almost every player that I have seen as a junior who has gone on to play decent senior football naturally ran hard at the contest, and wanted to get involved in the play. Can

(Bennell was intended to be thrown in with players not working hard, not senior players)

where have all the "have_trust_in_the_FD,_they_know_what_they_are_doing" apologists gone?

I knew you would come through for me DC.

Good question

They seem to be absent today

Oh well probably a busy work day we will no doubt hear from them tomorrow.

Theo:

Actually, it's easy to pick the mature bodied hard nuts because you can already see what they are/will become. The risk is taking a more lightly framed player because they still require physical development, which takes time. Time that supporters don't particularly like giving.

How did Tom Lonergan go against Buddy on Tuesday? Want to know how skinny he was when he was drafted? We actually took the big bodied Daniel Bell and Nick Smith before him. What about the big bodied Nathan Jones, Colin Sylvia, Brock McLean, Luke Molan, Lynden Dunn, Matthew Bate.

Actually, the only lighter bodied tall player we drafted in the first round between 2001 and 2007 was James Frawley. In amongst a flood of players, Sylvia aside, ranging from duds to 'good ordinary players', it seems that we only really had success with the smaller bodied types that needed further development. And how long were people slagging off the light bodied Frawley and Garland? I don't know if you were around at the time, but there was a lot of crap sent their way for a long time until they finally developed.

Since then, our smaller bodied first round picks were: Morton, Grimes, Watts, Scully, Gysberts and Cook. Trengove was a bigger bodied player.

But the lighter player will get bigger and stronger. And, at some point, you'll forget that they used to be skinny kids.

Like Tom Lonergan.

A B We should all live that long

In the mean time Darling types will be playing finals football.

The players that are being drafted will live that long.

That's what matters.

The players that are being drafted will live that long.

That's what matters.

I truely hope we both see it AB.

It's not that 'our senior players were well held / run off', Davey was not interested in playing last night. after he disposed of the ball he would simple stop running, and his defense was non existent. Difference between being well help and not bothering to try.

That's what Davey does more often than not when well held. Perhaps he preempted himself.

I have never been more depressed, this football team is going nowhere. We can attribute it to the coach or we can attribute it to our recruiting. Or both. We continually recruit light bodied small and medium sized players. Our tall players are light bodied i.e Cook, Rivers, Watts, Morton, Fitzpatrick etc. We don't recruit matured bodied hardnuts that are ball accumulaters and thrive in a contest. Apoligies to Tapscott.

The players seem afraid to take responsibility and take the game on. They are waiting for someone else to do it for them. We are a team of passengers and down hill skiers. The occassional comeo keeps players like Bennell and Morton in the team.

Paul Roos said that Aaron Davey doesen't appear to be enjoying his footy anymore because of being tagged. We have no A graders, only weak minded, weak bodied players that don't play for eachother. It appears to be a disheveled, disinterested lot that get monstered by the opposition week after week. Where are our monsters? We are the big key position players.

Our recruiting seems to generally take the safe option with skilled light framed nice boys. I just don't get it.

The FD keeps saying we need a matured bodied stay at home forward. Why didn't we pick McKernan or Darling or even Jackson Trengove instead of a HB flanker in Strauss.

In 2008 we picked Strauss, Bennell and Jetts. In between these picks the likes of Shuey, Ballantyne, Rockliff, Trengove, Zaharakis, Suban, Redden, Beams, Hannebery, Roughhead, Sloane, Liam Anthony were taken. All of these players have a combination of skill and hardness that the 3 Melbourne players don't have. We are no better now than we were 10 years ago. We were a bottom to middle of the ladder team then and were are no better now. You can blame the current coach, but this has been going on for years and even decades. I'm sick of it.

Right on the money...

We have recruited nice kids that you would have been happy if your daughter brought home.

What we needed were real pricks with tatts on their necks..

No wonder there is no intensity and mongrel.

The problem is I'm not surprised , I've seen all this before .

A surprise would be to come out after a long summer and show that we have improved significantly .

Other clubs seem to be able to do it , ours finds it impossible .

We've been fed a steady dose of snake-oil by Schwab , Connolly , Stynes & media about the accumilated talent on our list.

That our facilities are second to none , that soon we'll be a power . We grimly hold onto flashes of competancy (like Watts game last night)that it will all come together in the end . Meanwhile we watch patiently as opposition teams and draftees feats surpass our own .

The problem that I have is that I have actually seen progress in the last 3 years.

In all 3 years we have improved on all the KPI's.

Progressively won more games, scored more points, defended better, inside 50's etc

I have also noticed an improvement in the game plan were commentators were likening us to Geelong. (Geelongesque)

For some reason this year our game plan (going through the middle) has been ditched and our intensity (tackles) has dropped.

Yes, we have been fed a steady dose of snake oil and I am now resigning to the fact that we are on par with Richmond.

Any better than bottom 4 is a bonus.

Let's hope Bailey is gone by years end and a new coach surprises us in 2012.

The problem that I have is that I have actually seen progress in the last 3 years.

In all 3 years we have improved on all the KPI's.

Progressively won more games, scored more points, defended better, inside 50's etc

I have also noticed an improvement in the game plan were commentators were likening us to Geelong. (Geelongesque)

For some reason this year our game plan (going through the middle) has been ditched and our intensity (tackles) has dropped.

Yes, we have been fed a steady dose of snake oil and I am now resigning to the fact that we are on par with Richmond.

Any better than bottom 4 is a bonus.

Let's hope Bailey is gone by years end and a new coach surprises us in 2012.

JMac.

McKenzie.

Scully.

Surprised? I can't say I am really. What do you think is going to happen when you get a team to lose on purpose and fans cheers when they do.

It's not a switch you can turn off and on.

That was a year and a half ago. Light bulb should be getting warm after 18 months.

PS. Carlton, Collingwood, St.Kilda, Hawthorn all flicked the switch.

where have all the "have_trust_in_the_FD,_they_know_what_they_are_doing" apologists gone?

Indeed. The Demonland Dean Bailey PR Machine has left the building.

where have all the "have_trust_in_the_FD,_they_know_what_they_are_doing" apologists gone?

They are still celebrating the 90 point over the Gold Coast...

Has anyone actually sat down and looked at the stats of the playing list?

Yes we have no heart, no passion, no intensity, no game plan and an average coach, however there are some glaring facts which can't be discounted:

Last night 2 teams lined up:

Average Attributes

West Coast Attribute Melbourne

188.8cm Height 186.8cm

89.7kg Weight 85.9kg

24yr 4mth Age 23yr 6mth

84.0 Games 62.2

Total Players By Games

WC Games Melbourne

8 - Less than 50 - 11

8 - 50 to 99 - 6

1 - 100 to 149 - 4

5 - 150 or more - 1

Last night Melbourne were shorter, younger and had played on average 20 less games. To highlight the issue they had 4 more players with hardened 150+ game bodies.

The above facts can not be overlooked.

Our player list is at the same level as Richmond.

Richmond

Height 187.1cm

Weight 86.0kg

Age 23yr 6mth

Games 61.7

Total Players By Games

Games

Less than 50 - 11

50 to 99 - 7

100 to 149 - 3

150 or more - 1

In fact the MFC are a mirror image of Richmond. And to make it worse we are a little bit shorter and thinner :-)

We have the second youngest side in the league, second least experienced side, one of the shortest and the thinnest.

No wonder we were man handled last night.

Even though we are statistically on par with Richmond they seem to show more up side then us.

Dont forget guys Ess was crap last year and now look at them. All we need is a new established coach and we too will see the massive change in the players attitude.

I'm not afraid to defend Bailey. He has done a lot of things right and TBH I don't know enough about what is happening to say whether he is doing a good job or not.

If you listen to Matthews or Malthouse or Roos they all make the same comment - "a coach is only as good as the players at his disposal". We are talking about a coach who lost to Collingwood by 1 point last year and Collingwood haven't changed their game plan. This is the coach who delivered Roos his greatest ever defeat and it's also the team that lost a shocking game to WC last year at the G.

It's easy to blame the coach but it's also a cop out. Wave a magic wand with a new good coach and all will be fixed. I don't think so. I'm still inclined to think that these performances are put up by young lists and Trident is spot on the money when we are really just GC +1. We may be a little more than that but not much. Bar GC we are still the youngest list and we are doubly hit because our older experienced players are not stars. In that environment it's difficult to judge the game plan. We also have a third world midfield which further clouds the issue.

I get sick of being called "apologists" and "acceptor of mediocrity" when I present these arguments but there are usually complex reasons for things and all will not be "fixed" with a new coach.

The other thing I know is that those posting here at the moment generally do not want to hear a defense of Bailey or the MFC and this post will likely fall on barren ground.

That's fine, but just keep in mind that if I am a Bailey apologist I'm not posting it because people don't want to hear it. So why would I waste my time?

Hey everyone is entitled to an opinion but you are living in the past with regards to the wins last year. The collywobbles would [censored] us now.

It actually sounds like people are happy and proud that there are no Dean Bailey apologists or that there is a need to have to defend him. It sounds as if a few of you are happy for the loss so now we can all jump up and down and say I told you so!

Your living in the past because we lost yesterday.

1 day is little diff to 1 year ago!!

I'm not afraid to defend Bailey. I'm still inclined to think that these performances are put up by young lists and Trident is spot on the money when we are really just GC +1.

That's all great, but be careful about changing your tune when he's not reappointed as coach. You're hitching your wagon to someone who could not have done a worse job in 4 years.

He turned the list over. So what ? Everyone would have done it. He tanked. So what ? It had to be done. He's had a couple of good performances against Collingwood (without winning). So what ? Matty Knights got Essendon into the finals in 09 and beat Collingwood.

There's nothing he's done that has been a revelation. I like to think that I'm rational too and don't make kneejerk responses, but 4 years is a pretty decent sample size.

The guy's game plan and ability to get the players ready for game day stinks.

Hey everyone is entitled to an opinion but you are living in the past with regards to the wins last year. The collywobbles would [censored] us now.

Of course they would, what do you expect this year. We must have about 8 players under, I don't know, 15 games a piece. Theres no way we could beat them yet.

It actually sounds like people are happy and proud that there are no Dean Bailey apologists or that there is a need to have to defend him. It sounds as if a few of you are happy for the loss so now we can all jump up and down and say I told you so!

It's called realism ,and fairness, just as if you were on Jury Duty.

Bailey isn't the problem, but the way the match committee is selecting the players, is making us a very fragile side at the moment... But it's probably the quickest way to fast track the huge list of kids that we have.. It's just not Ideal to lose the way we did in a game we Really wanted to win..

They (WC) selected a side to soften us up, and went hard & relentless at Jamar and Moloney and anyone who may show some fight. There selection Ideas worked and they scarred us.. they want to Re-establish their House of Pain as their New team arrives.

They are one and a half years ahead of us...

It's called realism ,and fairness, just as if you were on Jury Duty.

Bailey isn't the problem, but the way the match committee is selecting the players, is making us a very fragile side at the moment... But it's probably the quickest way to fast track the huge list of kids that we have.. It's just not Ideal to lose the way we did in a game we Really wanted to win..

They (WC) selected a side to soften us up, and went hard & relentless at Jamar and Moloney and anyone who may show some fight. There selection Ideas worked and they scarred us.. they want to Re-establish their House of Pain as their New team arrives.

They are one and a half years ahead of us...

Dee-luded last year they were well behind us.

Now they are 1.5 years ahead?

Bailey selected a list full of kids, my complaint is a few more mature bodies e.g. Darling would be a big help while the skinny ones develop.

I think our Skinny Kids only drafting policy will hurt us for years.

A lot of them may never develop properly or move to teams with more on field support.

OUTCOACHED : Our gameplan is easily defeated by a competent opposition.

CONFIDENCE: Once our gameplan is defeated, simple footballing tasks and skills seem very difficult. Doubt creeps into everything, doubt of your self, your team mates, your coaches.

RUNNING: Once confidence is lost, sometimes subconsciously so is the will to run and demand the footy.

I said a few weeks ago after the Brisbane game we were one embarassing loss away from a crisis, that time has come. We aren't quite at rock bottom yet, it is clear however that changes need to be struck quickly to become competetive againts competent footy teams.

I look forward to the response. I don't think Bailey is a stupid man, let's see if he is stubborn one.

living in the past...i think we are! round 1 against hawthawn 2008 we were flogged: no game plan, no heart, no passion, no endevour, no understanding fast forward to last night and no game plan, no heart, no passion, no endevour, no understanding!! 4 years later and we are still no closer to seeing any improvement, i like dean but really after 4 years there is still no improvement its time to go. If we keep him then thses players that COULD be the superstars of the comp will end up as OK at best players just like Travis Johnstone. Aaron Davey and Colin Sylvia are heading towards that road too. If we are not carefull Jack Watts, Tom Scully and Trengove will end up going down the same road.